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So Louis Dubin.
Welcome to icons of DC Real Estate.

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Thank you for joining me today.
I reviewed your biography in the

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introduction.
We met in 1989 or 1990 when your dad,

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Dick Dubin, in a partnership
with NHP, was selling Grosvenor

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Tower in Rockville, Maryland.
And I represented Aetna,

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who had the property under a
letter of intent at the time,

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until they decided not to proceed,
unfortunately.

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But it was good to meet you and
your father at that time.

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A disappointment, but I still enjoyed
meeting your dad and you before

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going into your personal history.
Please share your role at, uh,

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at Redbrick.
And, um, I met your partners,

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Tom Skinner and William Passmore,
several years ago,

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prior to your merging your
former company with them.

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It seems you've helped them grow
considerably since you joined

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them in 2013.
Well, thank you so much for

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taking the time today with me.
Um, my role at Red brick, um,

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LMD is really quite simple.
Three of us on the firm.

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Um, we red brick became red
brick LMD when I joined in 2013.

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Uh, my initials are LMD and my
prior firm was LMD worldwide.

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Okay, before that was the Athena
Group. Um, so it was very simple.

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We didn't have all the fancy
branding people today.

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We probably would have spent 100
grand figuring what the right name

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was, but we decided to come together.
Um, we just took red brick and LMD,

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and once red brick lab.
Um, the roles here are somewhat, uh,

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um, definable and siloed in the same
time. It's all for one, one for all.

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It's a very different sort of
sense of sort of governance.

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The three of us own the firm.
Uh, all major and material decisions

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here have to be unanimous.
And therefore we're constantly

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talking about what's going on,
what strategy is here,

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what we're developing.
Um, uh, what, uh, financial

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structure is appropriate for us.
Um, my main role is overseeing

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all of the capital, uh, equity
capital that comes into the firm.

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We have our own white labeled broker
dealer with foreside that allows

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us with our own licensed people,
uh, to raise capital, uh, directly,

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um, typically through, uh,
the wealth management groups at UBS,

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Alex Brown, Raymond James, about
30 registered investment advisors,

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some insurance companies, some banks.
Um, but it gave us the ability

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institutionally to raise capital
in a way that most people in our

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industry don't do it.
And that's in the ultra high net

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worth world through these
institutional institutional

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wealth management channels.
Um, and that gives us very much

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a national, uh, platform to
raise large amounts of capital.

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And we are equity top heavy as
opposed to debt top heavy.

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My other roles are really overseeing
a lot of the design development

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here with our development teams,
the product.

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Remember, at the end of the day,
a lot of people think that

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development is very much around,
you know, clever, you know,

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debt, uh, and capital stack, uh,
uh, engineering.

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We've always we've always
believed here that you make your

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money on the real estate.
I think that's what I learned

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from my grandfather.
My father, uh, my, uh,

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my former father in law.
Um, it's all about the real

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estate and these other, you know,
capital structures can be accretive

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at certain times, and they can
also have you end up losing the

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property so very much overseeing
the equity capital formation,

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um, in the firm, the, uh, uh,
strategy on what we build and when

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and how ultimately how we capitalize,
which for us really means how little

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debt do we put on. Mhm. Interesting.
Um, as opposed to the, the typical,

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you know, lots of debt and lots of
fancy structure. So why don't you.

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Now tell me a little bit about
your origins,

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youth and parental experiences.
I understand you're a fourth

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generation developer going back
perhaps into the 1800s.

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Uh, possibly, uh, in Baltimore.
Yeah, I was a story.

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I was born in DC at Sibley. Yep.
Grew up here.

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Very proud product of the public
schools in Montgomery County.

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Mhm. Uh, went away to college.
Came back for law school to DC. Yeah.

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My great grandfather, my grandfather
and my father were all developers.

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My great grandfather started in
development, uh,

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in the late 1800s in Baltimore.
Um, his original profession was,

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uh, manufacturing gas mantles,
which today would be akin to

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manufacturing light bulbs. He.
You manufactured and distributed

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gas mantles, which were the wicks
in in gas lighting. Kerosene.

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In homes in whatever kind of oil
they were using.

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And then later on when they piped
in natural gas, you actually in

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some cases had it hooked up to,
to gas like a gas lamp in the,

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in the street.
And by the late 1800s he pivoted.

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He was in the lighting business,
not the gas mantle business,

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to electrifying cities with Edison
and built some of the very first

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dual system, uh, apartment and
office buildings ever to be built,

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um, with both the the gas wick
and the electric electricity

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back then was not reliable.
So you needed both systems.

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And he built some of the first
buildings with electricity. Cool.

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Um, on a number of the major
Mid-Atlantic, uh, cities and

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markets and then hence, you know,
sort of building and developing more

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and more with apartments really being
his for a he had nine children.

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So my grandfather was one of nine,
um, my father, who was my

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grandfather's son in law, and his
son followed in the footsteps.

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Most of my family are in the
building, building trades,

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development, construction business.
When I first started, I had to give

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a last look to Masters Lumber,
which was my great uncle's company.

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Um, my grandfather's brother,
um, for the last price on lumber

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when I was building homes when I
first started out.

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Because in the family, you always
gave last look to members of the

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family that owned the plumbing
concession within the family,

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the electrical concession, the,
uh, the lumber concession.

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The last one, the one that was
relevant to me was Uncle Eddie.

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And having to go to Masters Lumber
for, you know, the last quote.

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So I grew up here.
This is my hometown.

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Love, Washington. That's great.
So you learned a lot about the

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construction business, then,
from your your father and from your

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all your other, uh, uncles, etc..
And my grandfather,

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my grandfather was the first one
to teach me how to underwrite on

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a piece of paper with a pencil,
because you need an eraser. Yes.

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On a piece of graph paper.
How to underwrite, um,

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a single family housing project,
as well as anything that was

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income producing and piece of
graph paper and a pencil.

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And I can still remember.
That's cool.

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I'm taking me through it.
And if it took more than one page,

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it was too complicated.
You should do the deal.

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So you know the back of the
envelope pretty well then.

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I grew up with it and I and and when
I got married, uh, my father in law

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at the time was Al Taubman. Yes.
He was back of the envelope. Yes.

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And he was one of the richest
men in the world at the time.

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And it was back to the envelope.
Well, sometimes the most, uh,

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successful people are the simplest.
As far as what what makes sense

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in my experience.
So it's certain things work in a very

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simple basis. Then they'll do it.
And it doesn't have to be

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complicated. Yeah.
And it's location, location, location

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and not having a lot of debt.
Um, you know,

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that'll take you everywhere.
It's also very helpful if you're

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buying, you know,
at the low end of a cycle.

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So basis matters. Yes of course.
So you never want to overpay.

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You can't afford to. Sure.
And some very basic lessons.

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But I agree with you.
The kiss the what is it called kiss.

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Keep it simple, stupid. Absolutely.
So what did your dad teach you

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specifically?
What did you learn from him?

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Oh my gosh, I learned an awful lot.
I learned a lot from my dad.

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Um, I learned, uh,
how to construct buildings.

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Okay, um, I learned the value of
early bird getting the worm.

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I get up very early.
He was up by 430 or 5 every morning,

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and, uh, he would do that
because he'd have multiple jobs,

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multiple projects going at one time,
and they could be an hour away.

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And by 530, he was in his car going
to Baltimore, Prince George's County

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and Arundel, Montgomery County,
visiting his projects, um, checking

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on the status of construction,
etc.. So early bird gets the worm.

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I learned the value of very hard
work.

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My dad worked six seven days a week.
My Father's day, uh,

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the sales office did 5,060% of their
sales activity on the weekends.

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So if you build during the week
and if you were home builder,

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you sold on the weekends,
and he would, you know,

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sit jobs with his salespeople,
um, very often on weekends.

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And so I always prized the time
I had with him, you know,

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going and sitting in those.
Sales office and watching his sales

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managers and others, you know,
qualifying people for a home and,

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you know,
the symbiotic relationship with

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whatever mortgage company was sitting
the job and how it all worked.

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So I learned a lot about the
business.

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I learned a lot about, as I said,
work ethic, about, uh, getting up

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early, um, the value of integrity.
Do what you say you're going to do.

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Really important. Um, did.
You know you wanted to be, uh,

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in real estate developer when
you were little?

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I mean,
when you or when your dad did.

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Your dad just kind of just kind of
grew on you or what? What was my dad.

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Really wanted me to go to law school.
Okay.

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And I went to law school,
and as soon as I passed the bar,

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that was the end of my legal career.
Um,

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all I ever wanted to do was build.
So he's the one that influenced you?

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Go to law school. That's interesting.
What? Why? I mean, what did he want?

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You to be a lawyer internally, or.
Because at the time, he felt

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that that having a profession,
um, was sort of the guarantee,

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you know, professionally,
that you'd always be okay. Mhm. Okay.

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And it was very important to him
since we had the resources and means,

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um, that I get as much education
and schooling and credentialing

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as I could.
And what it really did for me is at,

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I got out of law school at 24 and
I was never afraid of things.

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There wasn't some lawyer,
some land use council,

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some contract lawyers, some finance
person that could sort of bamboozle

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me with concepts and ideas I couldn't
understand and intimidate me.

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So law school was a really important
thing for me to do, because early on,

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right out of law school,
while I was studying for the bar,

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I started building and it gave
me a really good foundation,

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confidence wise, that I, uh,
I wasn't, uh, intimidated.

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By law school not getting an MBA
business. I learned the rules.

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I mean, building development.
All right?

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A lot of it's all around the rules.
Yeah, a lot of it.

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I clerked when I was in law school
at, uh, Windows and Blocker.

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So I learned land use.
I learned contractual side.

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Um, it was about learning the rules,
and it serves me well today.

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Um, to know the terms, the phrases.
I can't give you any kind of real

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analysis locally on a jurisdiction in
terms of zoning, but there isn't

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a zoning lawyer in this country
that I couldn't talk to, with the

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exception, maybe of Louisiana,
which is Coleman Polian. Yeah.

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Um, but at least understand and be
able to ask the right questions

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and have a, have sort of a
professional dialogue with counsel,

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um, on, on on things.
So it's very, very it's always been

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very, very helpful. I'm sure it.
Helped you in your career looking at

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deals that were a little bit off
the table for others, and you had a

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different vision for it, which I'm.
Sure, and being able early on to

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buy non-performing loans and
Oriel and go through complicated

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legal processes. Yeah.
How about any other family

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influences or stories or.
Um, well, my grandfather was

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quite influential in my life too.
He also would take me from time to

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time to his projects, and he had
thousands of apartments that he

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owned, um, in, in the DC region.
Um. What happened was portfolio.

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Uh, Aimco ah um, upbringing.
It's you probably are familiar with.

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Yes. Of course.
So our family still has.

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We're still major. Uh uh.
Uh, owners in UDC.

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Didn't Aimco also take over NP?
At one point I thought they were

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the company.
You're your father's partner?

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Um. They were.
That's what I thought they were.

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Exactly.
Um, but these public rights

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offered a great, you know,
estate planning solution, um, to,

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uh, to sell and not have, uh,
the tax liability. There you go.

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And then with the step up in basis,
as many of your listeners are

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probably familiar with.
And if they aren't,

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they should learn about it.
Um, it's a great estate planning

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tool. Yeah.
I've interviewed several CEOs,

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so yeah,
we've talked about it in the past.

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Um, so you you attended Cal
undergrad, Washington Lee.

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Is there anything you learned there
that you thought was interesting?

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Did you enjoy that environment
down there?

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I loved it,
and I still have some of my very

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best friends from Washington, Lee.
Um, and I think that really

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reinforced the idea of integrity.
It was a school with very, uh,

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00:14:48,670 --> 00:14:54,010
uh, old fashioned values.
Um, the honor code there still is

216
00:14:54,010 --> 00:14:59,020
today and was extremely strong.
Um, and I think that, uh,

217
00:14:59,020 --> 00:15:01,450
even today, there's sort of a
network at Washington.

218
00:15:01,450 --> 00:15:05,350
And, Lee, if you're dealing with
the counterparty, uh, you know,

219
00:15:05,350 --> 00:15:09,700
transaction, there's a certain level
of behavior you'd expect. Sure.

220
00:15:10,060 --> 00:15:14,500
Um, and it served me really well
when I went to New York, ultimately,

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00:15:14,770 --> 00:15:19,870
where what distinguished me early on
was I was just a straight shooter.

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00:15:20,140 --> 00:15:22,900
You know,
there wasn't all the nonsense.

223
00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:27,250
And, uh, you know, when I was
young and I moved up to New York,

224
00:15:27,250 --> 00:15:30,970
that that was a really helpful thing.
I think it was part of who I was.

225
00:15:30,970 --> 00:15:34,720
But I think W and L really
reinforced that quite a bit.

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00:15:34,870 --> 00:15:36,400
I'd love to have you.
Now, did you go.

227
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,520
Right to law school after graduating?
I did. Okay.

228
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,270
Went right to law school, which was a
little bit a little bit unusual.

229
00:15:43,570 --> 00:15:46,510
But I, you know,
I went right to law school.

230
00:15:46,510 --> 00:15:50,080
I was able to and I went right
to law school. Why are you.

231
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:56,350
Um, because I didn't get into
Georgetown. Waitlisted at Georgetown.

232
00:15:56,530 --> 00:16:00,460
I either wanted to go to AEW or.
Or Georgetown.

233
00:16:01,150 --> 00:16:06,430
Um, AEW was a very close second
choice. Could have been my first.

234
00:16:06,970 --> 00:16:11,080
Um, because it had a pro program
in international law at the time

235
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,680
that was almost as good,
if not as good as Georgetown.

236
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,860
And I had a really weird I was always
a very curious person as a kid.

237
00:16:20,860 --> 00:16:25,510
I remember having read back and
forth the Encyclopedia Britannica,

238
00:16:25,510 --> 00:16:29,170
because I was really thirsty and
hungry for to learn about things.

239
00:16:29,170 --> 00:16:32,320
I loved learning about the world
and thinking about the world.

240
00:16:32,590 --> 00:16:39,610
And, uh, AEW had the only program
at the time this was in 84,

241
00:16:39,970 --> 00:16:43,570
where you could go if you were a
you or your automatically

242
00:16:43,570 --> 00:16:50,860
accepted to a term in China at
Bedford and Hong Kong University.

243
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,580
So I could go to school in China
in 1984.

244
00:16:54,580 --> 00:17:01,690
Now, mind you, I didn't go until 85,
but I could go to China and study.

245
00:17:02,050 --> 00:17:06,250
Um, and this was when the Chinese
were still wearing Mao suits,

246
00:17:06,250 --> 00:17:10,600
but I thought that there would be
was Deng Xiaoping came shopping

247
00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:17,890
and and I thought that the Chinese
economy was the sleeping dragon

248
00:17:18,070 --> 00:17:22,210
and what the next few decades
would be theirs. And I was right.

249
00:17:22,210 --> 00:17:28,540
So, you know, very, very early on,
I wanted to learn about that part

250
00:17:28,540 --> 00:17:32,440
of the world, you know, through
the lens of going to like the the

251
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,390
Yale and Harvard of, uh, of China.
And I wrote my thesis in law school

252
00:17:37,390 --> 00:17:40,450
and the Chinese Economic Contract Law
of the People's Republic of China,

253
00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:45,400
and it was promulgated in 1985,
was the very first economic,

254
00:17:45,490 --> 00:17:49,180
foreign economic contract law
that they had ever promulgated.

255
00:17:49,690 --> 00:17:53,380
Um, and I was able to do that
because my professors wrote it

256
00:17:53,380 --> 00:17:56,800
and interesting at the,
at the universities, um,

257
00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,100
you lived quite poorly there. It was.
It was there was no,

258
00:18:00,250 --> 00:18:04,120
no tourist infrastructure.
There was no Western comforts.

259
00:18:04,210 --> 00:18:08,860
Is it in Beijing? Um, three.
I lived in Beijing at the dorms

260
00:18:08,860 --> 00:18:12,700
at Beda.
I lived in Shanghai and at Fudan

261
00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:16,480
University in the dorms there. Okay.
And at Hong Kong University as well.

262
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,280
Wow.
That was a different story,

263
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:23,290
Hong Kong, but it was very exciting.
And I had some unbelievable

264
00:18:23,290 --> 00:18:26,620
professors and adjunct professors
at EIU. Have you been back?

265
00:18:27,220 --> 00:18:30,700
I was on the board,
the Dean's advisory board on.

266
00:18:30,730 --> 00:18:35,350
Oh, for oh, China to China.
Um, not in many years.

267
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:41,170
I had a joint venture briefly with
Hong Kong Land in the late 80s,

268
00:18:41,170 --> 00:18:45,160
early 2000.
Um, so I was in Hong Kong a few

269
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,640
times with the the leadership.
From Thailand.

270
00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:52,140
Um, but they were they were more
British than. Yeah. Than anything.

271
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,140
Yeah, I did I was involved with
the Mandarin Oriental here in

272
00:18:55,140 --> 00:18:58,560
Washington and dealt with that,
said Hong Kong based company.

273
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,270
So it was interesting.
I mean, it was.

274
00:19:00,690 --> 00:19:03,990
Even the the Chinese natives were
more British than anyone I'd ever

275
00:19:03,990 --> 00:19:08,610
met. Oh, sure. It was a whole.
Yeah, it's a whole subculture.

276
00:19:08,610 --> 00:19:12,570
I think the Brits, Hong Kong's like.
5 or 6 families basically control

277
00:19:12,570 --> 00:19:18,450
Hong Kong. Yeah. It's interesting.
Um, so you joined your father's

278
00:19:18,450 --> 00:19:23,040
firm right after law school?
Uh, sort of as a general counsel.

279
00:19:23,460 --> 00:19:26,340
Yes.
Um, the first year out of law school,

280
00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:31,950
when I was sitting for the bar,
I, um, built 30 houses. Okay.

281
00:19:31,950 --> 00:19:36,630
In an Arundel County, um,
on Broadwater Creek,

282
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:41,460
which is right near deal, Maryland,
and Old Court Savings and Loan,

283
00:19:41,460 --> 00:19:44,850
which had gone bankrupt,
had this piece of dirt with

284
00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:48,660
fully subdivided lots that I
could buy for next to nothing.

285
00:19:49,710 --> 00:19:53,160
So this was after they went under.
This is after they went under. Okay.

286
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,280
Even the street lights were in
with no houses on it. Wow.

287
00:19:56,820 --> 00:19:59,640
And that was my first project.
How did you find that deal?

288
00:20:03,140 --> 00:20:07,430
He has since left us but an old
school guy.

289
00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:12,590
Wonderful guy named Paul Greenstein.
I haven't thought of Paul in a

290
00:20:12,590 --> 00:20:16,520
long time. Wonderful man.
He and his brother.

291
00:20:16,550 --> 00:20:20,120
His brother was an accountant.
Um, they were builder developers.

292
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:26,390
And I think Paul was in his late 60s,
early 70s, and they really wanted a

293
00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:33,740
young partner to do work, to show up,
to run the super, to run the sale.

294
00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,880
One oh, my dad knew him.
Members of our club.

295
00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:43,100
They there were a lot of connective
tissue, um, wonderful, honest people.

296
00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:46,550
And they had found something
that was really quite valuable.

297
00:20:46,550 --> 00:20:48,860
But someone needed to do the work.
Good experience.

298
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:57,140
And, um, so I partnered with them.
And within a year, it was clear that

299
00:20:57,140 --> 00:21:01,010
the bigger deals, the bigger things
out there to do at 24, 25 years old,

300
00:21:01,010 --> 00:21:05,780
I was not gonna be able to do myself.
Um, and my father really put me

301
00:21:05,780 --> 00:21:08,330
into business,
which I'm very grateful for. Mhm.

302
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,410
Um, we needed to close quickly,
and I needed like,

303
00:21:12,410 --> 00:21:16,670
$800,000 for my share of it all.
We were doing it all equity at first

304
00:21:16,670 --> 00:21:20,930
before we closed any bank loan.
And they put up their share.

305
00:21:20,930 --> 00:21:23,120
I put up my share and I was
running it.

306
00:21:23,780 --> 00:21:31,610
Um, and my father lent me that money
and, uh, uh, told me this would be

307
00:21:31,610 --> 00:21:36,590
the most expensive postgraduate thing
he could ever support. Good luck.

308
00:21:37,340 --> 00:21:40,880
Which made me very upset that,
you know, like,

309
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,140
I was going to blow all this money.
And I worked seven days a week.

310
00:21:45,140 --> 00:21:48,470
And when I was finished with my
day job, I was meeting with the

311
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:53,240
banks to get this refinanced.
And within three months or so we

312
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,790
had it not refinanced,
we had it financed, and I was

313
00:21:55,790 --> 00:21:58,370
able to give my dad. This is all.
For sale though. Right? Yeah.

314
00:21:58,370 --> 00:22:02,300
For sale. Housing. Annapolis federal.
Got it. Interesting.

315
00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:07,400
Um, and, uh, you know,
getting a loan under pressure. Yeah.

316
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,890
You know, having to get it done
because of that, you know, in.

317
00:22:09,890 --> 00:22:13,280
The early 90s was not easy to get
financing. This was ninth by then.

318
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:20,600
It was 93. No, no. You're right.
No no, no, this was 88. Oh okay.

319
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:22,640
This is right at the beginning
of the end.

320
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,370
So yeah, I mean you could
finance stuff then. Yup.

321
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,480
And they, they were willing to give
me sort of a character loan. Sure.

322
00:22:29,510 --> 00:22:32,510
Because they had done business
with my grandfather and father.

323
00:22:32,510 --> 00:22:35,720
Ah, okay. It was the old days.
Sure. Yeah. It was different era.

324
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,640
Different era. Oh, yeah.
Um, so from there, I, I,

325
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,970
I found some other deals that we
should do some farmland and

326
00:22:43,970 --> 00:22:47,330
Prince George's some other stuff
that we should do in Bethesda.

327
00:22:47,330 --> 00:22:49,700
And my father always had big
stuff going on.

328
00:22:50,570 --> 00:22:55,730
Grosvenor, deal, Grosvenor,
and then Whitley Park over on

329
00:22:55,730 --> 00:23:00,290
Puzzle Road and. Yeah.
And I decided and he decided it

330
00:23:00,290 --> 00:23:04,070
was best to team up and do the
stuff together. Mhm. Yeah.

331
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:08,450
That was probably 88, 89,
something like that. Mhm.

332
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,010
And then eventually you decided to go
to New York. So talk about that.

333
00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:17,330
So I teamed up with my dad,
built a couple projects with him.

334
00:23:17,660 --> 00:23:25,250
By 1990 91 the world had ended.
SNL crisis for your for your audience

335
00:23:25,250 --> 00:23:28,730
that doesn't know it, you should look
up Resolution Trust Corporation RTC.

336
00:23:28,730 --> 00:23:33,110
I'll give you a little homework.
It was the cleanup agency for for

337
00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:36,440
all the failed SNL's in the US,
there were about 780 failed

338
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,610
institutions ultimately.
And the federal government,

339
00:23:40,610 --> 00:23:43,430
through its receiver,
the Resolution Trust Corporation,

340
00:23:43,970 --> 00:23:48,170
uh, became the it was basically
a private corporation owned by

341
00:23:48,170 --> 00:23:54,500
the federal government whose job
was to resolve and liquidate the

342
00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:57,590
failed institutions.
And I thought that's where all

343
00:23:57,590 --> 00:24:01,340
the action was.
I mean, if you wanted to really

344
00:24:01,340 --> 00:24:05,270
learn about how you buy
non-performing loans and learn how

345
00:24:05,270 --> 00:24:09,950
to value portfolios and stuff,
I never even remotely had any

346
00:24:09,950 --> 00:24:15,800
exposure to that was the place to go,
because by 90 it was clear in 1990

347
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,680
there were there weren't going
to be any new buildings built.

348
00:24:20,090 --> 00:24:23,540
And so we were lucky that we
didn't have a bunch of fires to

349
00:24:23,540 --> 00:24:26,900
put out and problems.
My father and I, we had pretty much

350
00:24:26,900 --> 00:24:35,360
sold all the homes that we had built.
Um, and uh, at the same time, uh,

351
00:24:35,870 --> 00:24:39,170
I was too young to go play golf
and tennis and all that stuff.

352
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:44,750
So I wanted to challenge.
And, uh, I was offered ultimately a

353
00:24:44,750 --> 00:24:48,500
position at the Resolution Trust
Corporation as a consultant,

354
00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:54,470
but actually as an official there,
uh, which I took, um, in, uh.

355
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,000
Your legal background helped there
and of 91. Yeah. DC was weird.

356
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,610
I mean, it's still weird,
you know, if you're.

357
00:25:01,950 --> 00:25:06,090
If you're a young lawyer, um,
there's a lot more opportunities

358
00:25:06,090 --> 00:25:09,030
available to you in government.
This is a legal.

359
00:25:09,030 --> 00:25:12,570
And so now my legal background
helped a great deal.

360
00:25:12,570 --> 00:25:17,850
I had clerked at some top firms,
and this was a business position

361
00:25:17,850 --> 00:25:22,140
at Resolution Trust.
And in a very short amount of time,

362
00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:28,080
um, I became, uh,
I became national director, um,

363
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,280
of all land and land loans at the
Resolution Trust that I bought a

364
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,780
$40 billion portfolio at the time,
which was a lot of money in 91,

365
00:25:37,830 --> 00:25:42,540
um, and spent a few years at
Resolution Trust Corporation,

366
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:49,140
uh, designing and executing on,
on some very large, uh, uh,

367
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,700
portfolio sales of partially
completed buildings, uh,

368
00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:57,270
a lot of lot subdivision stuff,
partially completed single

369
00:25:57,270 --> 00:25:59,880
family homes, finished single
family homes and sold.

370
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:05,880
Yet, um, and uh, um,
that was an unbelievable experience.

371
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,800
I got was awarded Institutional
Investor deal of the year either

372
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,210
in 93 or 94 for my work there,
which was a big deal.

373
00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:19,410
Um, to be a young person in the
federal, you know, you know, you

374
00:26:19,410 --> 00:26:23,880
know, basically a very high level,
but federal job, with that much

375
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,020
attention, it was time to leave.
I mean, you know, all the good

376
00:26:28,020 --> 00:26:31,800
that could have come was,
was already had already come.

377
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:40,020
And I an opportunity to leave and go
to New York in 90 uh, end of 93,

378
00:26:40,020 --> 00:26:44,250
94 and start my own firm.
So I put together a little bit

379
00:26:44,250 --> 00:26:49,650
of capital, and I moved to New
York and started Athena in, uh,

380
00:26:50,430 --> 00:26:55,800
it really got going in very early 94.
And that was what helped with

381
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,920
your father in law at the time.
Did he help you with? Absolutely.

382
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,780
I didn't expect him to.
I the original backers,

383
00:27:04,290 --> 00:27:07,410
made a deal with me that I had to
offer my father and my father in

384
00:27:07,410 --> 00:27:10,560
law an equal share in case they
wanted to be involved, because they

385
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,820
didn't want they knew my my family.
They didn't want, you know,

386
00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:18,030
my father or father in law to be
pissed off at that somehow that,

387
00:27:18,660 --> 00:27:25,560
you know, um, so my father in law
unexpectedly said, great idea. Yes.

388
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:30,030
And what I wanted to do was buy
nonperforming loans and REO and

389
00:27:30,030 --> 00:27:33,720
broken deals.
Um, like,

390
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,960
I'd been packaging and becoming
quite an expert at the RTC. Right.

391
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:43,950
And I put in my charter, um, that I
would do nothing with the FDIC RTC.

392
00:27:45,300 --> 00:27:49,470
So one of the initial investors said,
hey, I thought I was getting like

393
00:27:49,470 --> 00:27:52,740
sort of an inside track on things.
I said, no, no, it just has the

394
00:27:52,740 --> 00:27:57,000
appearance of not being appropriate.
Um, as a lawyer,

395
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,300
I don't do things that have the
appearance of not being appropriate.

396
00:28:01,020 --> 00:28:05,070
Um, so I put it in the charter
and of course, that that investor

397
00:28:05,070 --> 00:28:08,700
fell through and that that's.
Only two of the entities that were in

398
00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:11,490
distress. Everybody else was too.
So that was my point.

399
00:28:11,490 --> 00:28:14,250
So many opportunities.
That was exactly my point. Yeah.

400
00:28:14,250 --> 00:28:19,860
My point was it's fish in a barrel
and I don't need to go back and

401
00:28:19,860 --> 00:28:22,800
have the perception, even though
there was no technical conflict,

402
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,020
because whatever I had worked on,
it already sold.

403
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,620
But I knew how those programs
worked and I didn't need it.

404
00:28:28,620 --> 00:28:35,130
And I started and, uh,
and my very first, uh,

405
00:28:35,130 --> 00:28:38,400
deal came to me a few months
later because I had a reputation

406
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,370
of knowing how to diligence.
Very large, complicated,

407
00:28:41,370 --> 00:28:46,470
broken development deals.
Um, Mid-Atlantic National Bank

408
00:28:46,470 --> 00:28:50,880
in new Jersey had 32 assets.
And you remember these things when

409
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,660
they're like, you're first. Sure.
Um, about half Oreo,

410
00:28:54,660 --> 00:29:00,180
half nonperforming loans, um,
mainly subdivisions, you know,

411
00:29:00,180 --> 00:29:02,820
Cherry Hill, good real estate,
good real estate.

412
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,920
Um, and I partnered with K hub with
Hovnanian and his father, Kevork.

413
00:29:08,250 --> 00:29:11,970
I said, you guys are going to
build out this stuff and we're

414
00:29:11,970 --> 00:29:16,410
going to be partners.
And we figured out a methodology

415
00:29:16,410 --> 00:29:19,050
of doing that.
And so all of a sudden,

416
00:29:19,050 --> 00:29:20,790
you know, the first six months
of being up in New York,

417
00:29:20,790 --> 00:29:25,830
I'm 30 years old and I've got 32
assets in and around, you know,

418
00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:29,370
uh, you know, within an hour,
an hour and a half of, well, next

419
00:29:29,370 --> 00:29:31,770
to Philadelphia and with an hour,
an hour and a half of New York City.

420
00:29:31,770 --> 00:29:33,900
And so it was right in New York.
Right?

421
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:38,520
You know, in like, uh, uh, Hoboken or
Weehawken or things of that sort.

422
00:29:39,270 --> 00:29:44,490
Um, so we were in business, you know,
we, you know, hired asset manager,

423
00:29:44,490 --> 00:29:48,660
brought a partner in, um, and,
uh, did.

424
00:29:48,660 --> 00:29:52,230
You finance those deals with banks
or how did you. So your debt.

425
00:29:52,500 --> 00:30:00,210
The the charter, um, which the with
the prohibition on federal deals is

426
00:30:00,210 --> 00:30:07,550
what got me JP Morgan. Ah. Okay.
They love the fact that I'd left

427
00:30:07,550 --> 00:30:10,010
government.
I wasn't going back to do the

428
00:30:10,010 --> 00:30:14,900
government stuff that I had found
this highly profitable deal.

429
00:30:16,190 --> 00:30:21,770
Um, and they offered, uh, to, uh,
J.P. Morgan Investment Management.

430
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,740
Gypsum was what they were called
back then. JPM yeah.

431
00:30:25,340 --> 00:30:31,670
Um, so they backed me on my first
deal and they ended up being my my

432
00:30:31,670 --> 00:30:35,960
large capital partner on the first 4
or 5 deals that we did, actually,

433
00:30:36,830 --> 00:30:41,720
um, my recollection is they wrote
like an 80%, you know, 80% of the

434
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,110
dollars we needed. We put in 20.
We just I just go syndicate and

435
00:30:45,110 --> 00:30:50,330
put it together.
Um, and we had no debt. All equity.

436
00:30:50,870 --> 00:30:53,030
I mean, they were preferred
equity before they even knew it.

437
00:30:53,030 --> 00:30:55,640
Preferred equity works.
So they got paid back first,

438
00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,530
you know, but, um, but yeah,
I mean, really, really old school.

439
00:31:00,860 --> 00:31:04,190
Well, the debt markets were
somewhat tumultuous at that

440
00:31:04,190 --> 00:31:09,320
point until CMS really emerged.
This was about 93, 94. Yeah.

441
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:15,500
And I was early on before the the
commercial CMBS markets, Michael

442
00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:18,770
Youngman and Ken Bacon, who I know,
Ken, I've interviewed him.

443
00:31:18,770 --> 00:31:22,490
So Ken and Michael,
young men really did, um,

444
00:31:22,850 --> 00:31:27,440
start all of that at the RTC.
They had us they had the first CMS

445
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,920
desk because they had enough product,
right, that they could make a

446
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:35,780
market and figure out what up to
what loss they're willing to take.

447
00:31:35,810 --> 00:31:39,350
Um, you know, and.
Well, Fannie started the MDS

448
00:31:39,350 --> 00:31:43,760
business. So, yeah.
So, you know, the RTC was really

449
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:50,750
a laboratory for a lot of today's
real estate finance, you know,

450
00:31:50,750 --> 00:31:54,770
and structuring in the way things are
done or have traditionally been done.

451
00:31:55,280 --> 00:32:01,010
But yeah, so that so in the very
beginning it was J.P. Morgan

452
00:32:01,010 --> 00:32:04,340
Investment Management and my
father and my father in law at

453
00:32:04,340 --> 00:32:08,480
the time just didn't believe me.
Like, you're 30 years old,

454
00:32:08,900 --> 00:32:10,880
J.P. Morgan.
And how are they going to finance

455
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,560
you? They don't finance people.
You know,

456
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:17,090
you're not you're not old enough.
So I started closing deals and

457
00:32:17,090 --> 00:32:22,040
making money and. Right.
It was it was really sort of funny.

458
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,620
It really gave me, you know,
it was like that first deal I

459
00:32:24,620 --> 00:32:27,830
did with my dad's money.
All I wanted to do was pay him back.

460
00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:30,950
So I just wanted to perform. Right.
And, you know,

461
00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:33,320
all the snickering 30 years old,
you're doing this on your own?

462
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,950
Yeah. So I did it.
I mean, instead of worrying about

463
00:32:36,950 --> 00:32:40,250
it and having debates about it,
you just go do.

464
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,270
There were several people.
About your age at that time that

465
00:32:44,270 --> 00:32:47,900
did similar things, and.
I'm very stern, like. Berries.

466
00:32:47,900 --> 00:32:50,930
One of them, Ethan Penner,
I was going to mention and,

467
00:32:51,260 --> 00:32:55,580
you know, several other people.
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

468
00:32:55,580 --> 00:32:59,690
Sam Zell, of course, was older, but
he came in the market at that time.

469
00:32:59,690 --> 00:33:02,930
John Klopp, who runs Morgan
Stanley's real estate group,

470
00:33:02,930 --> 00:33:06,470
now, and Craig had cough.
They had a company called Victor

471
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:10,250
Capital.
Um, and they sold me Mid-Atlantic.

472
00:33:10,250 --> 00:33:13,070
Ah, okay.
I mean, John runs, you know,

473
00:33:13,070 --> 00:33:15,200
Morgan Stanley's real estate. Sure.
You know,

474
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,860
all their funds and groups today.
Um, but yeah, the fraternity of

475
00:33:18,860 --> 00:33:23,750
people I grew up with.
Um, Paul Castellanos. Right.

476
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:27,170
Um, Jonathan Gray, of course,
there's no basically running

477
00:33:27,170 --> 00:33:30,770
Blackstone. Just real estate. Yeah.
Um, it was quite a good vintage

478
00:33:30,770 --> 00:33:34,340
of people. Yeah.
So, David, I don't know if you

479
00:33:34,340 --> 00:33:39,230
remember David. Um, but a lot of, uh.
Yeah, a lot of big players,

480
00:33:39,230 --> 00:33:42,740
opportunistic plays.
And that RTC was the billions of

481
00:33:42,740 --> 00:33:46,580
dollars from that.
That was the that was the early

482
00:33:46,580 --> 00:33:49,610
proving grounds.
The question I have now is whether

483
00:33:49,610 --> 00:33:54,050
today is a similar moment.
I had a partners call. Call.

484
00:33:54,050 --> 00:33:56,900
I had a partners meeting this
morning, you know,

485
00:33:56,900 --> 00:34:01,700
is there blood in the streets yet?
It's like when how do we know

486
00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:05,150
what metrics we decided?
The three of us are going to write

487
00:34:05,150 --> 00:34:09,710
up for next Monday's meeting, um,
where we think we are and what

488
00:34:09,710 --> 00:34:13,190
the you know, what we think the
appropriate strategy is in terms

489
00:34:13,190 --> 00:34:16,130
of new acquisitions, because
we've got a lot of dry powder.

490
00:34:16,850 --> 00:34:18,890
Talk about Athena's growth a
little bit.

491
00:34:18,890 --> 00:34:21,800
How did it grow and what, you know,
that was your first deal.

492
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,100
Talk about your how your business
strategy grew over the time.

493
00:34:25,370 --> 00:34:36,560
So 9394 really to. To 2008.
15 years. Yeah.

494
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,880
It was, uh, Athena and many SPS
through Athena. Sure.

495
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,860
Um, I think I think we had 25
acquisitions or so.

496
00:34:45,860 --> 00:34:47,510
Something like that.
I don't remember the exact

497
00:34:47,510 --> 00:34:51,110
numbers anymore.
We had very high returns for many

498
00:34:51,110 --> 00:34:55,070
years, multiple funds through.
Was it mostly opportunistic,

499
00:34:55,310 --> 00:34:59,300
high risk type transactions in
development and. Yes, exactly.

500
00:34:59,780 --> 00:35:02,900
And then it pivoted, of course,
to my core strength,

501
00:35:02,900 --> 00:35:07,820
which was building buildings, um,
primarily in New York City, okay,

502
00:35:07,820 --> 00:35:11,480
in Washington, DC. All right.
So the development activities were

503
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,440
really DC and New York built a lot of
buildings in New York, made a lot of

504
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,770
money in New York City office mostly.
Um, no, no, no, no, uh,

505
00:35:18,770 --> 00:35:23,330
residential. Residential.
Uh, for sale, uh, condos. Okay.

506
00:35:24,140 --> 00:35:29,480
Um, and, uh, uh.
In Manhattan, mostly, or.

507
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:34,430
In Manhattan, although I did the
first major luxury condo deal in

508
00:35:34,430 --> 00:35:37,550
Jersey city, okay, which at the
time was a nascent market.

509
00:35:37,550 --> 00:35:44,810
And today is, you know,
a big mega, mega, uh, market.

510
00:35:44,990 --> 00:35:48,290
I built 111 Central Park North,
the top of the park,

511
00:35:48,620 --> 00:35:55,190
838 Fifth Avenue at 65th and fifth.
Um. Uh, several, uh.

512
00:35:55,430 --> 00:36:01,250
These are all residential.
43 West 64th.

513
00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:05,130
Between Central Park West and
Broadway.

514
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,520
These high rise buildings,
high rise buildings. And I lived, uh.

515
00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:11,400
Um,
I lived in on the Upper East Side.

516
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,600
I lived in New York for about 20
years. Right. So development.

517
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:22,920
And then we were dollars with a
controlled GP position and other

518
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:28,290
developments or projects that had
stopped that needed, uh, the capital

519
00:36:28,290 --> 00:36:33,300
to continue into development partner.
So that took us to places like Miami,

520
00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:39,870
um, Palm Beach County, uh,
Providence, Rhode Island, Boston.

521
00:36:39,870 --> 00:36:43,710
We did some very we had about
2,000,000ft² of office in Boston.

522
00:36:43,980 --> 00:36:47,730
We made a lot of money in Boston.
It's a very long story for a whole

523
00:36:47,730 --> 00:36:52,800
nother podcast, how you make a lot of
money and in office, it all has to

524
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:59,160
do ultimately with basis, right?
If you buy really low and you have

525
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:04,350
tenants or a prospect for tenants,
um, and you don't let leverage

526
00:37:04,350 --> 00:37:08,910
screw you up, um, there are ways
you can make a lot of money.

527
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,180
I don't know about today,
but back then, certainly.

528
00:37:12,180 --> 00:37:15,060
And then back then, office was
very much different. Demand.

529
00:37:15,060 --> 00:37:16,530
Factors today,
different demand factors.

530
00:37:16,530 --> 00:37:20,220
But office was a very scorned
upon product type.

531
00:37:20,220 --> 00:37:25,620
You know, in the in 95, 96, 98.
Well, what Sam Zell did in the early

532
00:37:25,620 --> 00:37:31,560
90s in Washington and other cities,
he just scooped up product at such a

533
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,610
discount. Absolutely. We did similar.
And so the office stuff we did,

534
00:37:35,610 --> 00:37:38,790
we made a lot of money on. Yeah.
And then there was always land,

535
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:40,410
big land stuff.
We made a lot,

536
00:37:40,410 --> 00:37:44,670
a lot of money on, you know,
especially on entitled land, um,

537
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,530
you know, where we could buy it in
distress or buy it really well below.

538
00:37:49,710 --> 00:37:54,060
And so you're willing to take
entitlement risk. Absolutely.

539
00:37:54,060 --> 00:37:56,820
There you go. Okay.
That's part of the it's part of

540
00:37:56,820 --> 00:38:00,870
the mantra. Okay.
Some people are like. No.

541
00:38:00,870 --> 00:38:04,170
Well, we understand we understand it.
And the older I get,

542
00:38:04,350 --> 00:38:09,600
the more the more localized I
get on being able to take.

543
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:14,790
I'll take entitlement risk all day
long in DC because I probably my

544
00:38:14,790 --> 00:38:19,410
partners and I probably understand
it as well as anyone out there.

545
00:38:20,190 --> 00:38:21,720
Is there anyone understands it
better?

546
00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:24,450
I don't know, but we certainly
were very comfortable with

547
00:38:24,450 --> 00:38:27,090
entitlement risk here.
The government aspect is one thing,

548
00:38:27,090 --> 00:38:30,240
but the community aspect is another,
and we can talk about that.

549
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:32,970
Absolutely, yeah,
we'll get into that a little bit.

550
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:40,410
So Athena was a 15 year effort and.
Yeah, probably, uh, you know,

551
00:38:40,410 --> 00:38:51,210
25 transactions. Yep.
Um, 2008, the 2008 I parted,

552
00:38:51,210 --> 00:38:56,910
I got divorced from my wife.
My major partners at that time were

553
00:38:56,910 --> 00:39:04,590
my wife's family, and we parted in,
uh, in 2008, right before the

554
00:39:04,590 --> 00:39:09,690
world sort of ended between.
Bear and Lehman in that in that era.

555
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,370
Exactly. Yeah.
Exactly that way that year.

556
00:39:14,370 --> 00:39:17,610
So that was a big cataclysmic
change in your life then?

557
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:22,230
Oh, huge. Yeah. Right. Right.
So then what what was your

558
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:24,990
thought process at that point?
So I started redbrick LMD.

559
00:39:25,020 --> 00:39:29,790
I had agreed who I would take
from old Co from the old company.

560
00:39:30,630 --> 00:39:36,570
Um, and I started on my own.
Uh, you came back.

561
00:39:36,570 --> 00:39:38,550
To Washington at. That point?
No, no, no, I was in New York.

562
00:39:38,550 --> 00:39:41,010
My daughter was still in high school.
Okay.

563
00:39:41,580 --> 00:39:45,690
Um, I've always been very active in
my daughter's life and raising her at

564
00:39:45,690 --> 00:39:53,370
all, so I really couldn't leave.
And I started, uh, red brick LMD.

565
00:39:53,550 --> 00:39:56,280
And what did you look at at that.
Point.

566
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:02,370
When we were one of the 2 or 3
bidders on, um, Plaquemines Bank,

567
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,750
uh, core bank. Oh, sure.
So we got qualified to bid on that.

568
00:40:06,750 --> 00:40:12,570
I put a, like, $1 billion offer
together on that with, uh, um,

569
00:40:12,810 --> 00:40:14,940
you know, a big team of people I
brought together.

570
00:40:14,940 --> 00:40:18,420
We went against Stern Lake and a few
others, but we were one of a handful

571
00:40:18,420 --> 00:40:24,150
of bidders that were qualified.
Um, and, uh,

572
00:40:24,150 --> 00:40:28,200
we looked at that very seriously.
And then I put a couple of other

573
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:40,000
major assets under contract. Um, and.
Had people with all kinds of

574
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,400
problems unraveling.
All of a sudden I didn't have the

575
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:48,910
unraveling, so I could I could help,
uh, put together, uh,

576
00:40:48,910 --> 00:40:52,780
solutions for people that had
development projects that had stalled

577
00:40:52,780 --> 00:40:55,990
or stopped or things of that sort.
So how did you come together.

578
00:40:55,990 --> 00:41:01,750
With your partners now?
So I decided to move back to DC

579
00:41:02,530 --> 00:41:07,180
in 2013. Okay.
And I was really looking around,

580
00:41:07,180 --> 00:41:11,020
where's the next big opportunity?
And I had built and developed

581
00:41:11,020 --> 00:41:14,650
all over this country,
an office in L.A. at one point,

582
00:41:15,070 --> 00:41:23,830
Boston and Florida in, in, in,
in in the multiple offices in DC

583
00:41:23,830 --> 00:41:28,510
and Northern Virginia.
And I was looking for dynamics

584
00:41:28,510 --> 00:41:31,270
that made sense.
I'd done some work overseas

585
00:41:31,420 --> 00:41:34,360
early in my career.
So it was really looking for

586
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,860
where's the next emerging market?
How do I find that?

587
00:41:38,860 --> 00:41:41,500
How do I have an open mind about it?
Mhm.

588
00:41:42,460 --> 00:41:49,090
Um, I got remarried, um, had big
opportunities out in Los Angeles.

589
00:41:49,690 --> 00:41:55,300
I really didn't like living there
and decided ultimately that, uh,

590
00:41:55,450 --> 00:42:01,150
Washington had that emerging
market that I was looking for.

591
00:42:01,330 --> 00:42:06,010
And my wife was okay with moving
from Malibu to DC,

592
00:42:06,010 --> 00:42:11,140
but not in Malibu to New York.
Okay. It's one of those. Yeah.

593
00:42:11,410 --> 00:42:16,360
And so, um,
and my father was building.

594
00:42:16,970 --> 00:42:23,630
Uh, big project on 14th Street, um,
called the Bentley at the time.

595
00:42:23,930 --> 00:42:30,110
And a lot of assets here.
And, uh, I took a little look around.

596
00:42:30,110 --> 00:42:33,110
I hadn't really looked at DC
seriously for a while,

597
00:42:33,860 --> 00:42:38,570
and I was like, oh my God,
the locals are really missing it.

598
00:42:39,470 --> 00:42:42,920
Um, what's happening down by the
ballpark?

599
00:42:43,070 --> 00:42:48,230
Yeah, and in southeast and Monty
Hofmann's grand plans for southwest.

600
00:42:48,230 --> 00:42:50,810
Yes.
The entire city is going to pivot

601
00:42:50,810 --> 00:42:56,270
south and east. And it did.
And I would tell people that

602
00:42:56,270 --> 00:42:59,090
grew up here,
some of my father's friends grew up

603
00:42:59,090 --> 00:43:03,110
in Anacostia and Congress sites.
These are areas that changed

604
00:43:03,110 --> 00:43:07,130
tremendously last 50 years.
As a matter of fact, my synagogue,

605
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:12,860
um, their original cemetery is next
to Anacostia in Congress Heights,

606
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:15,890
Washington.
Hebrews original cemetery. Huh?

607
00:43:16,430 --> 00:43:21,170
Um, is on Alabama Avenue in
southeast DC. Interesting.

608
00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:24,350
Um, these were very diverse
neighborhoods.

609
00:43:25,220 --> 00:43:30,830
Jewish, Italian, Irish, African
American. Solid. Middle class.

610
00:43:31,010 --> 00:43:36,800
Um, so a lot of cops,
government workers, firemen, uh,

611
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,280
teachers, you know,
not the wealthier area in town,

612
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,160
but a very solid area in town.
I know something like some

613
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,870
neighborhoods in Queens or something.
So I saw this opportunity, um,

614
00:43:48,980 --> 00:43:54,260
here in DC and, uh, the local.
Analogous to Brooklyn because I

615
00:43:54,260 --> 00:43:59,030
said that.
This, um, uh, even more, uh,

616
00:43:59,030 --> 00:44:02,030
Dumbo. Yeah.
It's analogous to Brooklyn. Dumbo.

617
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,790
I always was in awe of the
Volantis family.

618
00:44:04,790 --> 00:44:10,970
And for those listeners, look up the
Volantis. Um, early on, they saw it.

619
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,480
They saw it big time.
Their basis was next to nothing.

620
00:44:14,660 --> 00:44:17,480
They were so dead on.
And so I saw it.

621
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,050
And then I got to understand how
the Green Line worked.

622
00:44:21,050 --> 00:44:25,130
The green subway line,
which in our generation, we all.

623
00:44:25,130 --> 00:44:28,490
The red line was everything.
Of course, not anymore,

624
00:44:28,940 --> 00:44:31,700
but it was everything.
The green lines, the new red line.

625
00:44:31,700 --> 00:44:35,540
And I came to believe that, um,
11 years ago.

626
00:44:36,590 --> 00:44:41,510
And so the first week I'm back,
one of my great buddies, um, who's

627
00:44:41,510 --> 00:44:45,560
lived on Capitol Hill for 25 years.
He says, I got to I got to take

628
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,500
a ride with you.
And he's a very well-known, uh,

629
00:44:48,980 --> 00:44:53,510
political person. Um, very smart guy.
Strategy says I just don't get it.

630
00:44:54,500 --> 00:45:00,800
Why is no one buying this land on?
Howard wrote it on at Poplar Point.

631
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:06,890
Why are all these big vacant areas?
Why is there this blight when

632
00:45:06,890 --> 00:45:09,050
right across and they're going
to be building a new bridge.

633
00:45:09,050 --> 00:45:12,800
Louis, you know, the new stadium
has come and this is all happening.

634
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,530
Why, why, why, why.
Why Jefferson wouldn't.

635
00:45:16,070 --> 00:45:19,010
Know this wasn't Jeff. Okay?
Jeff owned a good bit of.

636
00:45:19,010 --> 00:45:23,150
Oh, I know what we bought from
UBS actually did.

637
00:45:23,450 --> 00:45:26,810
Um, but my friend brought me over,
and, I don't know, he had no

638
00:45:26,810 --> 00:45:30,080
connection to any of this. Okay?
He's like, he was trying to,

639
00:45:30,530 --> 00:45:33,200
I think, seduce me into coming
back to Washington.

640
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,480
And he knew I needed something big.
Okay.

641
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:40,130
So I've never done little things.
And, uh, I was like,

642
00:45:40,130 --> 00:45:44,450
this is a this is a no brainer.
And I said, let me let me

643
00:45:44,450 --> 00:45:50,600
research and figure all this out.
UBS owned the big, uh,

644
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,400
important piece over on Howard
Road right at Poplar Point.

645
00:45:56,390 --> 00:46:01,580
Um, and I learned very quickly that,
uh, they had close to four acres.

646
00:46:02,630 --> 00:46:08,630
And I learned even more that they
had until the end of September

647
00:46:08,630 --> 00:46:14,210
2013 to dispose of that asset
and get their 90% loss share

648
00:46:14,210 --> 00:46:18,500
from the Swiss government.
So this was in August of 13.

649
00:46:18,530 --> 00:46:21,800
They needed to move fast.
Interesting.

650
00:46:21,950 --> 00:46:27,290
And so I needed to mobilize fast.
And within a week, I met Tom

651
00:46:27,530 --> 00:46:32,600
Skinner and William Passmore,
who became my partners ultimately.

652
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:37,970
And they had diligence and
analyzed the site for 1824 months.

653
00:46:38,210 --> 00:46:40,820
So all the diligence stuff,
all the stuff I would have had

654
00:46:40,820 --> 00:46:44,870
to started from scratch,
they had done and we agreed.

655
00:46:44,870 --> 00:46:48,140
The next day we had a really
good first meeting.

656
00:46:48,140 --> 00:46:51,980
Let's pursue this together.
Let's just pursue it together.

657
00:46:51,980 --> 00:46:53,750
We had different skill sets and all.
Sure.

658
00:46:54,260 --> 00:47:01,250
And uh, before we knew it,
literally three weeks later, uh,

659
00:47:01,250 --> 00:47:05,850
we had titled the property.
Some major local families came

660
00:47:05,850 --> 00:47:08,370
in as investors.
So did our capital,

661
00:47:08,580 --> 00:47:12,810
and we bought a little cash.
And that's pretty much been our

662
00:47:12,810 --> 00:47:15,390
mantra.
All the land that we've bought up

663
00:47:15,390 --> 00:47:22,530
today in, in southeast, um, we have
close to 9,000,000ft owned and

664
00:47:22,530 --> 00:47:29,880
controlled, um, in the city today.
Um, we have no debt, you know,

665
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,570
on land. So we do it.
We do it all equity on land.

666
00:47:33,870 --> 00:47:38,760
And then when we go vertical, um,
we typically don't have more than

667
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:43,500
40% construction debt, which is one
of the only reasons or one of the

668
00:47:43,500 --> 00:47:47,940
reasons that we're one of the only
developers still able to build.

669
00:47:48,270 --> 00:47:51,030
We have a $430 million project.
I'm looking at the cranes right

670
00:47:51,030 --> 00:47:53,580
now through the window.
Um, that's going on.

671
00:47:53,580 --> 00:47:56,100
And we closed that construction
debt last fall.

672
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:04,110
Um, so, you know, this low leverage
owned, land owned land, uh,

673
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,940
with no debt, um, is the only way
you're getting stuff done. That's a.

674
00:48:08,940 --> 00:48:12,660
Multi generational view, which.
Is we're not traders.

675
00:48:12,660 --> 00:48:16,860
We're we're not traders.
And then all of a sudden in 18,

676
00:48:16,860 --> 00:48:21,390
actually the end of 17 opportunity
zone legislation came along.

677
00:48:22,020 --> 00:48:26,670
And all this land that we were
buying got a major push because

678
00:48:26,670 --> 00:48:30,540
there was all this capital that
needed to be in sort of emerging

679
00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:36,210
markets that qualified as being low
income or historically low income,

680
00:48:36,900 --> 00:48:41,040
um, under the 2010 census.
And that was a huge boom because

681
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,400
a lot of the ultra high net worth
market that were taking capital

682
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:49,110
gains was able to use that program
and put it into projects, uh,

683
00:48:49,110 --> 00:48:54,330
of ours and speed up the development
or redevelopment of these areas, um,

684
00:48:54,330 --> 00:48:58,830
in southeast that were now building
out in a very big and fulsome way.

685
00:48:59,550 --> 00:49:02,430
So you've got that big project then
you're also involved in the Saint

686
00:49:02,430 --> 00:49:04,800
Elizabeth's project. Talk about that.
So we were picked as the.

687
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,830
Original master developer.
We've been picked twice now on

688
00:49:07,830 --> 00:49:10,080
different phases of that master
development.

689
00:49:10,500 --> 00:49:15,390
Um, that's gone unbelievably well.
Um, very delighted with that.

690
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,020
Uh, the first phase, we partnered
up with Flaherty and Collins.

691
00:49:19,020 --> 00:49:23,430
We built 250 apartments there.
We were able to figure out with

692
00:49:23,430 --> 00:49:27,690
Flaherty, um, how to, uh,
how to do that.

693
00:49:27,690 --> 00:49:30,390
80%, uh,
workforce housing affordable.

694
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:36,570
The requirement was 20, and we were
able to use low income tax credits

695
00:49:36,570 --> 00:49:40,560
and gap equity funding from the
city and historic tax credits.

696
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,550
Uh, to that year,
we were the largest producer of,

697
00:49:44,550 --> 00:49:48,930
uh, workforce affordable housing.
Is that a ground up structure? No.

698
00:49:48,930 --> 00:49:53,160
That was we had adaptive reuse of
one of the hospital buildings.

699
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,920
Seven of them. Really?
It's beautiful if you haven't

700
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,440
seen it. I haven't looked at it.
I saw it before it started

701
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:00,570
construction. Incredibly beautiful.
Before you were even. Appointed.

702
00:50:00,570 --> 00:50:03,750
And because the way it was
constructed in the heights, they

703
00:50:03,750 --> 00:50:06,060
make for very generous apartments.
I can imagine, like,

704
00:50:06,060 --> 00:50:08,160
just really, really nice.
Ceiling heights are probably not

705
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,570
tall.
And then, um, we were able early

706
00:50:12,570 --> 00:50:17,040
on to partner with Whitman Walker.
Yeah, for about 130,000 foot

707
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:20,640
office building, which we cut
the ribbon on with the mayor.

708
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:27,270
Uh, I think in September, um,
they have about 330 people, uh,

709
00:50:27,270 --> 00:50:32,670
working in that building now.
Um, that was a pharmacy,

710
00:50:32,670 --> 00:50:37,440
food and health services, desert.
Um, um, Whitman Walker is now able

711
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:41,520
to see 10,000 people a year. Wow.
That would not have had that kind

712
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,730
of access to what they offer,
including putting it on the ground

713
00:50:44,730 --> 00:50:47,850
floor, a compounding pharmacy.
Of all the deals I've done,

714
00:50:47,850 --> 00:50:51,390
all the big projects I've done,
I think I'm most proud of that

715
00:50:51,390 --> 00:50:54,750
because that was financially a
big success. That's great.

716
00:50:54,750 --> 00:50:58,650
And it really brought something
to a community that brings tears

717
00:50:58,650 --> 00:51:03,120
to people's eyes.
It was just needed access to really

718
00:51:03,150 --> 00:51:07,590
health care, health care and dental
care. Tented clinic there as well.

719
00:51:07,590 --> 00:51:11,310
And it's state of the art,
beautiful Class-A building was

720
00:51:11,310 --> 00:51:14,310
just at their 50th gala.
You know, I was in tears.

721
00:51:14,310 --> 00:51:16,860
I was so excited.
I mean, we really did something.

722
00:51:17,070 --> 00:51:19,890
We did something amazing with
our skills and talent.

723
00:51:19,890 --> 00:51:23,310
We made money at it.
And the impact that we had is,

724
00:51:23,310 --> 00:51:28,140
uh, is colossal. We also are.
This year will be done with just

725
00:51:28,140 --> 00:51:32,400
under 100 townhouses, um, for sale.
Housing was really important to

726
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,120
the mayor, really important to us.
You know, in building strong

727
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,360
middle class communities,
you need homeownership.

728
00:51:39,810 --> 00:51:43,980
And about 30% of those units,
uh, were in the workforce

729
00:51:43,980 --> 00:51:47,100
affordable program.
So, you know, people that are

730
00:51:47,100 --> 00:51:52,050
working hard that, you know, perhaps
aren't earning 150 grand a year,

731
00:51:52,050 --> 00:51:57,390
but earning 80, 90, um, you know,
can get themselves qualified for, uh.

732
00:51:57,630 --> 00:52:01,440
Before you took that opportunity.
What what was your thought

733
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,520
process going in there? I mean.
That was, you know,

734
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,040
you looked at those historic
buildings and you said, so how are

735
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:13,380
we going to make this work? Uh.
So we knew that that there were

736
00:52:13,380 --> 00:52:16,290
there were parcels with no
buildings on them. Right?

737
00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:19,890
There were parcels with buildings
on the parcels, with buildings on

738
00:52:19,890 --> 00:52:24,630
them converted well to apartments.
Um, we knew Homeland Security was

739
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:28,980
coming with their new headquarters.
We knew the Coast Guard was coming

740
00:52:28,980 --> 00:52:31,710
with their new headquarters.
There was a tunnel under the

741
00:52:31,710 --> 00:52:34,560
road under MLK,
right into our campus. Mhm.

742
00:52:35,310 --> 00:52:40,290
We knew that the feds had big plans
to have Customs and Border Patrol

743
00:52:40,290 --> 00:52:44,070
and Ice ultimately there. Yep.
And we knew that there are other

744
00:52:44,070 --> 00:52:47,670
federal agencies that were
expanding there because of the

745
00:52:47,670 --> 00:52:51,090
cyber defense Intel threats,
including Defense Intelligence

746
00:52:51,090 --> 00:52:54,360
Agency, which is right there.
Now, people know that they're public.

747
00:52:54,360 --> 00:53:01,170
They're they're um, they're at at,
uh, at Joint Base in Anacostia, right

748
00:53:01,170 --> 00:53:04,980
down the hill, less than a mile.
So we knew that there were all

749
00:53:04,980 --> 00:53:07,950
kinds of drivers there.
You know, if you could put

750
00:53:07,950 --> 00:53:13,380
together a really good, safe plan.
Um, we also decided that it was

751
00:53:13,380 --> 00:53:16,860
really important that the time
that we had the the option in

752
00:53:16,860 --> 00:53:22,770
our first phase on, uh, uh, uh,
the entertainment and sports

753
00:53:22,770 --> 00:53:25,230
arena site. Mhm.
We thought that was a really

754
00:53:25,230 --> 00:53:28,200
good idea.
The mayor and the city built a

755
00:53:28,470 --> 00:53:31,740
5000 seat arena, right?
Right in the middle of all the stuff

756
00:53:31,740 --> 00:53:35,640
we were developing and we decided,
oh my gosh, we got to build a

757
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,310
town center here now.
And before we do that, we're going

758
00:53:38,310 --> 00:53:45,090
to build the first all wood CLT,
cross laminated timber, uh,

759
00:53:45,090 --> 00:53:49,680
structure, um, in this area.
And we're going to house at

760
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:54,360
least 15 businesses there.
They under built the food and

761
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,110
beverage in the arena on purpose so
that people, when they float out,

762
00:53:58,500 --> 00:54:03,990
would have to go next door or in
the neighborhood to eat and drink.

763
00:54:04,020 --> 00:54:07,740
They get some economic, uh, uh,
some dollars into the local economy.

764
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,390
And what we did was, um,
we convened a jury with our,

765
00:54:12,390 --> 00:54:16,050
our partner in that in the new
town center is Emerson Collective.

766
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:22,260
Um, what we did there was we asked
the community to put a jury together

767
00:54:22,260 --> 00:54:30,090
with us to select out of 30 some
applicants, 15 local businesses that

768
00:54:30,090 --> 00:54:36,300
could go in in a subsidized way,
um, with full legal business coach

769
00:54:36,300 --> 00:54:41,190
accounting, support for businesses
that already proven out that they

770
00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:45,510
had a product that was commercial
and marketable, whether it was a

771
00:54:45,510 --> 00:54:49,020
food truck or a small restaurant,
or some of the baked pies,

772
00:54:49,020 --> 00:54:52,920
or someone that had a fashion brand,
or someone that had an antique

773
00:54:52,920 --> 00:55:01,290
store or an art, uh, an art, uh,
uh, studio, um, someone that had

774
00:55:01,290 --> 00:55:05,820
commercially viable product to
sell or food and beverage.

775
00:55:06,930 --> 00:55:11,280
We picked 15 out of the 30.
They were all, uh, black owned wards.

776
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:15,990
Seven and eight businesses. Yeah.
And by doing that and by building

777
00:55:15,990 --> 00:55:21,870
something fabulously beautiful.
The day we opened,

778
00:55:21,870 --> 00:55:25,320
we had 1300 people at the opening.
We were expecting 300.

779
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:29,940
The community, they they cry when
they talk about it. Oh that's great.

780
00:55:29,940 --> 00:55:33,390
The pride that they have.
And I learned a lot in New York

781
00:55:33,390 --> 00:55:38,280
around how you do this, right.
You don't do it with brutalist

782
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:44,100
architecture and chained stair
chairs and, you know,

783
00:55:44,100 --> 00:55:50,010
concrete benches and uninviting,
awful, sort of dehumanizing stuff.

784
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:52,530
You do it in a way that is so
beautiful.

785
00:55:52,530 --> 00:55:57,270
The local community is, is,
is going to be really,

786
00:55:57,270 --> 00:56:00,810
really difficult on anyone that he
faces or heart hurts that place.

787
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:05,880
That's really the key. And it worked.
And it's incredibly beautiful,

788
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:10,890
amazingly successful.
Um, pre-COVID they had over 100, uh,

789
00:56:10,890 --> 00:56:14,700
events a year up there. That's great.
And so they had this whole built in

790
00:56:14,820 --> 00:56:18,690
economic cycle now that everything's
getting, you know, sort of restarted.

791
00:56:18,690 --> 00:56:22,770
So I interviewed Katherine Buell.
Yeah. Who?

792
00:56:22,770 --> 00:56:26,640
Uh, I did the deal with her. Yeah.
So I knew she talked about Saint

793
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:29,010
Elizabeth's before.
Of course, she went on to Amazon

794
00:56:29,010 --> 00:56:33,870
and did amazing things at Amazon,
and I was doing a sabbatical up

795
00:56:33,870 --> 00:56:38,250
at Harvard University. But, uh.
Yeah, Katherine's a lawyer.

796
00:56:38,250 --> 00:56:41,640
She's another. That's right.
Reformed lawyer. Yeah.

797
00:56:41,850 --> 00:56:44,580
Her story is amazing.
So the listeners, please listen to

798
00:56:44,580 --> 00:56:48,900
that episode. It's pretty special.
And she was a big part of what

799
00:56:48,900 --> 00:56:51,600
you were doing up there.
Yeah, she was the executive director

800
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,680
for the mayor, and I negotiated,
uh, with her directly.

801
00:56:55,950 --> 00:57:02,340
Um, the deal lady? Yep. Yeah.
So, uh, talk a little bit more

802
00:57:02,340 --> 00:57:04,900
about the bridge. District project.
You know,

803
00:57:04,900 --> 00:57:08,410
you've got several properties,
buildings under construction there.

804
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,530
Talk about that a little bit.
So our big theme today and everything

805
00:57:11,530 --> 00:57:18,010
that we're building new is net zero.
Sustainability is the mantra at

806
00:57:18,010 --> 00:57:21,010
our firm okay.
And we're currently building at

807
00:57:21,010 --> 00:57:23,860
the Bridge District.
We're able to build a little

808
00:57:23,860 --> 00:57:28,300
over 2.5 million feet.
We have the zoning in place.

809
00:57:28,570 --> 00:57:34,690
We're currently building about
760 apartments.

810
00:57:34,690 --> 00:57:38,710
It's under construction now.
That building currently is the

811
00:57:38,710 --> 00:57:44,560
largest net zero from operations
apartment building under

812
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:50,350
development in the world.
So the impact world is all over us.

813
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:53,950
All that I'm trying to understand,
it's mainly the interest is

814
00:57:53,950 --> 00:57:57,340
mainly coming out of Europe.
To be candid, Europeans,

815
00:57:57,340 --> 00:58:01,240
especially the Germans, the Dutch,
the Scandinavian countries talk.

816
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,360
About the technologies that are
accomplishing that.

817
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:09,640
Are it there's a lot of carbon
secret, uh, sequestration.

818
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:13,150
The bottom line is we're doing things
like having our own batch plant,

819
00:58:13,150 --> 00:58:16,330
which lets us put a much more
efficient mix of slurry.

820
00:58:16,330 --> 00:58:21,160
It makes us it allows us to
modify how much slag and ash we

821
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:24,580
put into the mix, which means it
takes a little longer to cure.

822
00:58:24,580 --> 00:58:26,350
But you're pouring it right on site.
You're doing.

823
00:58:26,350 --> 00:58:29,590
The carbon cure process,
which in concrete is.

824
00:58:30,010 --> 00:58:34,750
We're we're doing a lot of embodied
carbon within the concrete. Right.

825
00:58:35,350 --> 00:58:39,670
Um, which is getting us a lot of
net zero points.

826
00:58:39,670 --> 00:58:43,690
We signed a green energy output
agreement with Exelon. Pepco.

827
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:50,980
That's a big part of it.
Um, and we, uh, uh, have, uh,

828
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:55,270
really state of the art, um,
they like to call it geothermal.

829
00:58:55,270 --> 00:58:58,990
It's really ground source, heat pump,
you know, energy, you know,

830
00:58:58,990 --> 00:59:02,740
how are you making your energy
for your heating and your cooling

831
00:59:02,740 --> 00:59:05,230
and for moving your air around?
And, um,

832
00:59:05,230 --> 00:59:09,760
that's a large part of it as well.
We monitor it literally on a

833
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,780
weekly basis. Interesting.
Um, it literally has a compliance

834
00:59:13,780 --> 00:59:19,750
person on the team that is counting
and judging how far the workers

835
00:59:19,750 --> 00:59:23,590
are commuting, how much gas
they're expending in their cars.

836
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:30,850
Um, without the concrete, uh, trucks,
we don't have the CO2 emissions and

837
00:59:30,850 --> 00:59:34,990
the idling because we've got the,
the. The measuring at. All.

838
00:59:34,990 --> 00:59:38,440
We're measuring it all.
And we have a third party that

839
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:42,730
ultimately measures all of it and
puts a third party report together on

840
00:59:42,730 --> 00:59:46,240
what the when you add all of that up,
what that adds up.

841
00:59:46,270 --> 00:59:49,270
That's American Geophysical
Union building here in the city.

842
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:53,590
Um, our team is toward it.
It's in very interesting.

843
00:59:53,860 --> 00:59:57,700
Um, we're modeling our future
buildings, not just being net

844
00:59:57,700 --> 01:00:01,450
carbon zero from operations,
but net of carbon zeros themselves.

845
01:00:01,660 --> 01:00:05,200
And so our next building will be
announcing very shortly.

846
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:12,070
Um, and our, the, the rest of that
build out over there, I expect all

847
01:00:12,070 --> 01:00:16,810
but one of those buildings will be,
uh, would CLT to 130ft about a year,

848
01:00:16,990 --> 01:00:20,890
about a year ago, we started with
the district in getting a, uh,

849
01:00:21,100 --> 01:00:25,240
getting the building code changed
over to the 2024 International

850
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:29,140
Building code to allow you to go
to 130ft of wood. CLT.

851
01:00:29,140 --> 01:00:31,540
Is that similar to mass timber
or is that something?

852
01:00:31,810 --> 01:00:35,920
It is across limitation if there's
different kinds of mass timber okay.

853
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:39,730
Cross laminated.
Um, the simple way of explaining

854
01:00:39,730 --> 01:00:44,860
it is if you take your fingers
and you and you don't cross them,

855
01:00:45,310 --> 01:00:47,830
you just sort of leave them like
this, I can take my hand and

856
01:00:47,830 --> 01:00:51,160
easily break through right.
The minute you cross it.

857
01:00:51,940 --> 01:00:54,730
That bond you can't get through
my hand. Got it.

858
01:00:54,730 --> 01:01:00,580
So there's a process that the
Canadians do quite well.

859
01:01:01,030 --> 01:01:04,300
Um, the leading technologists.
And doing the CLT is really like

860
01:01:04,300 --> 01:01:07,630
mesh. It's like mesh really.
The Austrians. Yeah.

861
01:01:07,750 --> 01:01:11,320
And one of the biggest learnings
is there's less of a carbon

862
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:19,600
footprint for us to buy our cross
laminated timber from Austrian, uh,

863
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:25,600
forests that get railed to a port and
shipped to the port of Baltimore

864
01:01:25,870 --> 01:01:29,110
than it is for us to truck it from
the Pacific Northwest. Really?

865
01:01:29,650 --> 01:01:35,440
Which is not intuitive at all.
Um, but rail and shipping is just

866
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:44,740
much more, much less of a carbon, uh,
imprint than, uh, than, uh. Trucking.

867
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,710
When are you going to start
leasing the project over there?

868
01:01:48,340 --> 01:01:55,300
Apartments? Um, 25, sometime in 25.
What, seven hundreds?

869
01:01:55,300 --> 01:01:57,610
A lot to put in the market at
the same time. Well, we'll.

870
01:01:57,610 --> 01:02:01,270
Stagger it a little bit. Okay.
But we have three different, uh,

871
01:02:01,270 --> 01:02:04,560
products. Everything for. Rent.
You. For everything for rent.

872
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:11,400
But one of the products is, uh, is
more of a short term stay. Ah, okay.

873
01:02:11,610 --> 01:02:13,500
And there's a huge demand for
furnished apartment.

874
01:02:13,500 --> 01:02:17,010
Short term stay here. Huge.
You know, people for sale product

875
01:02:17,250 --> 01:02:19,260
or sell product. Interesting.
No,

876
01:02:19,260 --> 01:02:22,680
we want to own this for a long time.
And then other uses, you know,

877
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:27,420
retail there too. Yeah.
We have, uh, what's been announced

878
01:02:27,420 --> 01:02:32,850
already is we have about 24,000
foot lease with Atlas Brewery.

879
01:02:33,060 --> 01:02:35,880
Oh, which, as you may or may not
know, they brew their beer with

880
01:02:35,970 --> 01:02:39,720
solar panels. That's kind of cool.
They're sort of consistent with our

881
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:43,500
net zero approach. That makes sense.
Um, so they've taken a lot of

882
01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:45,630
the first 40,000ft.
They've taken a lot of it.

883
01:02:45,630 --> 01:02:50,010
We expect to be announcing soon.
Um, a really great market in there.

884
01:02:50,190 --> 01:02:56,730
Um, and, uh, we have multiple,
uh, uh, coffee bar, uh,

885
01:02:56,730 --> 01:03:01,920
restaurant and other groups that were
negotiating with. Uh, office use.

886
01:03:02,790 --> 01:03:07,860
Um, no office use in that building.
Um, but we do have a building that

887
01:03:07,860 --> 01:03:12,030
we're working on that has gotten
some, you know, gotten some publicity

888
01:03:12,030 --> 01:03:15,630
recently called the National
Center for Cyber Leadership.

889
01:03:15,780 --> 01:03:21,270
Uh, there we're working both with,
uh, federal partners, uh,

890
01:03:21,270 --> 01:03:26,550
private sector and universities,
and we'll be announcing soon, uh,

891
01:03:26,550 --> 01:03:30,540
who some of those groups are.
Well, looking at the Wharf's recent

892
01:03:30,540 --> 01:03:34,980
success with some of the major law
firms, it just seems to me that

893
01:03:34,980 --> 01:03:39,870
an Anacostia waterfront location
long term might be worthwhile.

894
01:03:39,870 --> 01:03:44,940
The feds, the the the cyber people
love it because this is being built

895
01:03:44,940 --> 01:03:48,930
less than half a mile from us.
Okay. That's the sense.

896
01:03:48,930 --> 01:03:53,820
Cyber Infrastructure and Security
Agency. At Dia, right down the world.

897
01:03:53,970 --> 01:03:57,810
Dia less than a mile. Yeah.
Homeland security up the hill.

898
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:01,590
There you go.
Um, and let's just say that, uh,

899
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:06,630
you're at the Grand Central Station
of dark fiber there. Interesting.

900
01:04:06,630 --> 01:04:10,290
So you can imagine all of the
fiber that must run around and

901
01:04:10,290 --> 01:04:14,100
through there.
Um, so it's a very unique location.

902
01:04:14,790 --> 01:04:17,670
What other major initiatives
does Red brick have other than

903
01:04:17,670 --> 01:04:22,740
those two major projects?
Well, we've recently, uh, they've

904
01:04:22,740 --> 01:04:26,400
recently talked a little bit in the
press about the Navy Yard. Okay.

905
01:04:27,690 --> 01:04:35,220
Um, so we are in the process now of
closing on about 15 acres right here

906
01:04:35,220 --> 01:04:40,140
where we're sitting at the Navy yard,
right along the water, all the way

907
01:04:40,140 --> 01:04:43,800
over to the 11th Street Bridge.
Is that Brookfield the seller on

908
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:47,250
that or, you.
Know, it's a it's a it's a land swap

909
01:04:47,250 --> 01:04:50,940
we've been working on. Oh, okay.
For many years with the Navy.

910
01:04:51,300 --> 01:04:54,780
With the Navy itself. Okay.
And is that for government use

911
01:04:54,780 --> 01:04:58,980
or what. What are you thinking?
No, that'll primarily be, uh,

912
01:04:58,980 --> 01:05:03,000
rental apartments and hospitality
and a lot of food and beverage.

913
01:05:03,990 --> 01:05:07,680
Great. So that close what next year?
This year? Next year?

914
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:11,850
Early next year. Great.
It's like another 1.7 million feet.

915
01:05:12,270 --> 01:05:15,420
What about existing portfolio
income producing assets?

916
01:05:15,450 --> 01:05:19,020
We've sold most of our income
assets off about a year and a half.

917
01:05:19,020 --> 01:05:23,040
Two years ago, the prices were
getting really goofy with like

918
01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:28,470
sub four cap rates on, you know,
40 year old garden product.

919
01:05:28,470 --> 01:05:31,560
So we sold we had a few thousand
apartments that we own,

920
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:34,890
primarily in Northern Virginia.
We sold most of those.

921
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:38,850
Um, we still have just under a
thousand units in Merrifield.

922
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:42,840
So you're basically positioning
yourself for development at this

923
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,570
point.
And we have I would say that

924
01:05:45,570 --> 01:05:49,860
that's fair and accurate. Um.
So you're not going to acquire

925
01:05:49,890 --> 01:05:53,220
existing assets until the
market's kind of well, earlier.

926
01:05:53,220 --> 01:05:55,920
On I said, you know,
we're we're sort of debating not

927
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:59,730
not really debating but discussing
what what factors would indicate

928
01:05:59,730 --> 01:06:04,890
we're really at a lull and a low.
And we've always been Tom, William

929
01:06:04,890 --> 01:06:10,050
and myself quite good at buying
things. Um, you know, at low points.

930
01:06:10,290 --> 01:06:14,160
So we have quite a bit of
liquidity right now and, uh,

931
01:06:14,340 --> 01:06:18,240
we'll deploy that liquidity.
Um, when things are compelling

932
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:22,470
and opportunistic.
So your website indicates that

933
01:06:22,470 --> 01:06:25,770
you have some experience and
some deep involvement in

934
01:06:25,770 --> 01:06:28,560
opportunity zone financing.
Talk a little bit about that and

935
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:35,880
how you engineered that.
So in 17, we sort of got a whiff

936
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:41,880
of uh, the possibility of, uh,
legislation, um, that was being

937
01:06:41,910 --> 01:06:47,640
talked about that would bring,
uh, tax advantage dollars into,

938
01:06:48,330 --> 01:06:53,130
uh, low income census tracks.
And since a lot of what we were

939
01:06:53,130 --> 01:06:58,650
buying and they were basing that
on the 2010 census in 2010, um,

940
01:06:58,650 --> 01:07:02,940
most of this area and Anacostia
and Concord sites.

941
01:07:03,270 --> 01:07:05,220
If not all of it would have
qualified.

942
01:07:06,210 --> 01:07:12,840
So we thought, oh my gosh, if this
tax, if this tax advantaged law, um,

943
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:18,960
that's been talked about becomes,
uh, becomes law, um,

944
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:21,450
or legislation becomes law.
Um,

945
01:07:21,450 --> 01:07:24,960
this would be incredibly accretive.
Early on we did some modeling and

946
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:29,670
analysis on it, and we thought
it was worth up to 400 basis

947
01:07:29,670 --> 01:07:37,290
points more in after tax yield.
So instead of getting a 15 IRR,

948
01:07:37,710 --> 01:07:42,750
you could get a 19 plus.
Lots of tax goodies came along with

949
01:07:42,750 --> 01:07:46,410
it that I won't go into today.
Um, but it was even more

950
01:07:46,410 --> 01:07:53,310
creative than that. Sure.
Um, when you the one of the biggest

951
01:07:53,310 --> 01:07:59,250
features of that was the fact that
there was no recapture, um, ever of

952
01:07:59,250 --> 01:08:03,540
any depreciation you may have taken.
Um, and all proceeds of

953
01:08:03,540 --> 01:08:06,540
refinance came out tax free.
So there were all kinds of goodies.

954
01:08:06,540 --> 01:08:08,340
You couldn't even factor into
that number.

955
01:08:09,330 --> 01:08:12,030
So we thought, oh my gosh,
this would be terrific.

956
01:08:12,030 --> 01:08:16,140
This would speed up development
in some of these parts of town

957
01:08:16,140 --> 01:08:21,580
that traditionally, um.
Well, people had said,

958
01:08:21,580 --> 01:08:25,180
oh my gosh, there's there's an
economic case for that.

959
01:08:26,050 --> 01:08:32,110
Um, so we we joined the early
advocacy group for that economic

960
01:08:32,110 --> 01:08:35,380
innovation group. Big came in early.
I don't know if we were a charter

961
01:08:35,380 --> 01:08:38,470
member, but a very early member of
the Opportunity Zones Coalition

962
01:08:38,470 --> 01:08:43,240
started going up to Capitol Hill,
got very involved with legislation,

963
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:46,480
got very involved with the
regulations because they passed

964
01:08:46,480 --> 01:08:50,170
at the end of 17.
It took them until end of 18

965
01:08:50,170 --> 01:08:52,840
early 19 for the first
regulations to even come out.

966
01:08:53,170 --> 01:08:55,870
We were all sort of guessing on
how to structure this stuff.

967
01:08:56,350 --> 01:08:58,630
So we were very,
very involved in this.

968
01:08:58,630 --> 01:09:02,290
It was worth hundreds of
millions of dollars to us.

969
01:09:02,860 --> 01:09:06,730
Um, we decided we really needed at
the partner level to be very involved

970
01:09:06,730 --> 01:09:10,870
in understanding how this worked
and creating products around us.

971
01:09:10,870 --> 01:09:14,950
And so we did four different
opportunity zone funds around raising

972
01:09:14,950 --> 01:09:19,990
capital, um, into the buildings.
I've been describing for you

973
01:09:19,990 --> 01:09:22,090
here today.
So just about all your

974
01:09:22,090 --> 01:09:28,450
developments or opportunity zone
financing projects. Yes.

975
01:09:29,700 --> 01:09:33,060
So what that's offered.
I would assume that with the

976
01:09:33,060 --> 01:09:38,820
exception of land.
Uh, very often the land was, uh, was

977
01:09:38,820 --> 01:09:43,830
stuff that was owned before. Sure.
But what that does, it seems to me,

978
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:48,390
uh, since you raised equity in
the syndication marketplace,

979
01:09:48,390 --> 01:09:51,840
that's a huge tax incentive for
a lot of people to invest in

980
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:58,020
those types of situations. Huge.
And so when you give a really big

981
01:09:58,020 --> 01:10:02,250
tax advantage plan to sophisticated
wealth managers, there you are.

982
01:10:02,850 --> 01:10:08,820
Um, there you are. And hence. 1986.
But our relationship with UBS, Alex

983
01:10:08,820 --> 01:10:13,290
Brown, Raymond James makes sense.
Uh, a number of other major insurance

984
01:10:13,290 --> 01:10:17,670
companies have wealth management
platforms. The big Rias. Sure.

985
01:10:18,060 --> 01:10:23,130
Um, makes sense. It just made sense.
And we were able to do that in,

986
01:10:23,130 --> 01:10:28,140
in raising in, uh,
tremendous amounts of capital. Yeah.

987
01:10:28,140 --> 01:10:31,740
So your platform,
because of what you're doing is very

988
01:10:31,740 --> 01:10:35,610
unique because unless you have the
scale of development like that,

989
01:10:35,610 --> 01:10:38,520
it's really hard to justify the
infrastructure that you've built

990
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:42,150
for doing that. You couldn't. Yeah.
You know, a lot of a lot of friends,

991
01:10:42,150 --> 01:10:44,730
a lot of people and developers.
Uh, why can't I stand up my own,

992
01:10:45,030 --> 01:10:50,550
my own, you know, white labeled sort
of broker dealer and, you know,

993
01:10:50,550 --> 01:10:53,430
sort of mimic what you've done.
98,000,000ft² to build.

994
01:10:53,430 --> 01:10:55,320
Then, you know.
You know, you could,

995
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:59,080
but you better be prepared to. Right.
You know, I don't know, 5 to $10

996
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:00,960
million check to get it started,
right.

997
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:05,250
I mean, just just to put it
together and recruit your people.

998
01:11:05,250 --> 01:11:10,890
And it's, uh, it's not for the meek,
but you need. You need big scale.

999
01:11:11,430 --> 01:11:14,880
You need big scale. Yeah.
It's not a just a single project.

1000
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:19,260
It's got to be a major development
situation of that scale.

1001
01:11:19,650 --> 01:11:25,360
Fascinating. Um.
So talk a little bit about your team.

1002
01:11:26,260 --> 01:11:29,560
Um, you walked me around before
we started today and introduced

1003
01:11:29,560 --> 01:11:32,110
me to a few people,
but talk about kind of the assembly

1004
01:11:32,110 --> 01:11:35,770
of your team and what your thought
process was as you've developed

1005
01:11:35,770 --> 01:11:40,240
a company's business strategies.
Well, we needed, um, we needed,

1006
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:44,650
uh, top development professionals
that also had really good technical

1007
01:11:44,650 --> 01:11:48,730
abilities to employ some of these
newer technologies so we could

1008
01:11:48,730 --> 01:11:52,150
build these net-zero buildings.
So we needed the best of class

1009
01:11:52,150 --> 01:11:57,760
developers, which not only included,
you know, the really smart MBA types,

1010
01:11:58,420 --> 01:12:04,540
um, but really focused on engineers
as well, that actually understood

1011
01:12:04,540 --> 01:12:08,530
systems, controls, uh, you know,
understood or could have the capacity

1012
01:12:08,530 --> 01:12:15,430
to understand the technology.
And so we recruited, um, you know,

1013
01:12:15,430 --> 01:12:19,120
through executive search people,
but heavily word of mouth as well.

1014
01:12:19,210 --> 01:12:23,410
At the same time, we had some of
the major firms in town, like JBG,

1015
01:12:24,100 --> 01:12:27,250
uh, and others laying off their
development people. That's right.

1016
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:31,960
Going out of the hunting business
and more into the farming business,

1017
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:36,430
as they say.
Um, and we were able to pick up

1018
01:12:36,430 --> 01:12:40,930
from many of these firms,
including Brookfield, which Forest

1019
01:12:40,930 --> 01:12:43,810
City we've always been very close
with and done a lot with and,

1020
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:47,260
uh, Brookfield as well,
but including when they laid off

1021
01:12:47,260 --> 01:12:50,830
most of their development people.
Um, we were able to pick up,

1022
01:12:50,830 --> 01:12:55,480
you know, some of the very best
people we had worked with, uh, there.

1023
01:12:55,930 --> 01:13:03,040
So it's really been, uh, you know,
best of class professionals, young

1024
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:07,090
people that really excel, you know,
as a young person and what they do,

1025
01:13:07,450 --> 01:13:12,070
young people right out of school that
can demonstrate critical thinking,

1026
01:13:12,550 --> 01:13:16,240
um, that really are passionate about,
you know, what we do?

1027
01:13:16,330 --> 01:13:19,210
Um, you know, the dream about
building buildings one day.

1028
01:13:19,870 --> 01:13:23,800
So one of the interesting things is
you don't have very high leverage,

1029
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:28,270
and I assume and I'm going to
guess I'm just speculating again,

1030
01:13:28,270 --> 01:13:32,200
your story to your investors is we're
going to hold these long because

1031
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:35,260
the opportunity zone to ten years
minimum. We told them 12 the.

1032
01:13:35,260 --> 01:13:37,720
Opportunity zone forces that.
Issue. And we don't.

1033
01:13:37,720 --> 01:13:40,510
And we want a future proof.
So we need to be technologically

1034
01:13:40,510 --> 01:13:44,800
advanced. Okay. There you are. Okay.
The city, of course, wants this

1035
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:49,150
2033 goal they're trying to reach,
which is, you know,

1036
01:13:49,150 --> 01:13:52,690
probably not realistic, but it's
something they're reaching for.

1037
01:13:53,020 --> 01:13:58,120
So it helps in getting approvals and
all your when you're doing all this,

1038
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:01,450
I have to assume from an entitlement
standpoint to get all in

1039
01:14:01,450 --> 01:14:04,990
everything you want to accomplish.
So it's interesting what you

1040
01:14:04,990 --> 01:14:07,930
develop and it's exciting.
It's really exciting.

1041
01:14:08,050 --> 01:14:13,540
It it is exciting and it all sort of
fits together. It's interesting.

1042
01:14:13,780 --> 01:14:16,870
So what's the long term strategy
with this real estate?

1043
01:14:16,870 --> 01:14:19,270
I mean you're going to hold
obviously beyond that.

1044
01:14:19,270 --> 01:14:22,000
I mean you want to just keep
holding it or you're looking for

1045
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:24,430
an exit strategy.
Well, the ozone fund investors

1046
01:14:24,430 --> 01:14:28,630
expected exit at some point I assume.
So I'm we'll we'll give them the

1047
01:14:28,630 --> 01:14:32,230
opportunity to exit or not.
There's lots of structures you can

1048
01:14:32,230 --> 01:14:35,050
employ. It's too early to say what.
They could be capitalized if you

1049
01:14:35,050 --> 01:14:38,320
wanted. To keep recapitalize.
You know, in ten years, will there

1050
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:44,290
be a big premium for green? Right?
Well, we have the institutional stuff

1051
01:14:44,290 --> 01:14:48,460
that very few other people have.
I mean, there's lots of ways you

1052
01:14:48,460 --> 01:14:53,140
could look at how you'd recapitalize,
but right now it's about it's

1053
01:14:53,140 --> 01:14:56,080
about blocking, tackling and
building up the portfolio.

1054
01:14:56,440 --> 01:14:58,840
Is there anywhere else in the
DMV that you're looking at in

1055
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:01,270
Southeast Washington?
And pretty much now for our

1056
01:15:01,270 --> 01:15:06,130
opportunities?
Um, we will begin to, in 24,

1057
01:15:06,430 --> 01:15:13,750
look at, um, opportunistic deals,
deals that need rescue capital, sure.

1058
01:15:13,750 --> 01:15:16,780
Deals where there are, you know,
buildings that have stopped

1059
01:15:16,780 --> 01:15:20,980
broken projects. That's right.
In my right, in our DNA, we have

1060
01:15:20,980 --> 01:15:24,010
one of the best development and
construction projects in the city.

1061
01:15:25,330 --> 01:15:27,940
So those are the kinds of things
that we would be unique,

1062
01:15:27,940 --> 01:15:31,090
have unique proprietary.
CBD sites that are, uh,

1063
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:34,990
underutilized and under occupied
could be, uh, although.

1064
01:15:34,990 --> 01:15:38,470
No one showed me models yet,
really on how some of the CBD

1065
01:15:38,470 --> 01:15:42,070
stuff converts.
I mean, to me, there's a lot of

1066
01:15:42,070 --> 01:15:44,650
Ted talk nonsense right now.
I interviewed.

1067
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:49,120
Uh, Matt Pastrnak, who's doing
two major projects downtown and

1068
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:52,000
converting them to residential,
and it's going to be interesting

1069
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:55,480
to see how he performs there.
But one is a 700 unit project

1070
01:15:55,480 --> 01:15:58,450
right here across from the
Washington Hilton,

1071
01:15:59,440 --> 01:16:03,280
and the other is a 2100 M Street,
which is a major project on the west,

1072
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:06,190
on the east and west end.
It'll be fun to see how those

1073
01:16:06,190 --> 01:16:10,930
come out big. Oh. No. Absolutely.
I'm just saying I don't know.

1074
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:14,770
We we have people that come
through with, you know, stuff that

1075
01:16:14,770 --> 01:16:18,370
they've tied up or have control.
And, you know,

1076
01:16:18,370 --> 01:16:23,220
we get to the punch line and,
you know, it's 1213. 14% IRR.

1077
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:26,490
It's like, you're kidding me.
Not enough. I could.

1078
01:16:26,700 --> 01:16:31,380
I could put a debt strategy together,
you know, much less risk,

1079
01:16:31,380 --> 01:16:35,190
much more priority to be paid back.
So I just don't know.

1080
01:16:35,190 --> 01:16:37,200
I'm not saying it won't happen,
but I.

1081
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:40,860
I think pricing has to go a whole
lot lower. Has to be lower.

1082
01:16:42,030 --> 01:16:45,990
Get it? It's not there yet. Yeah.
There are trades now though that are

1083
01:16:45,990 --> 01:16:50,850
sub 200 a foot downtown Washington.
So it's interesting. I know. Yeah.

1084
01:16:50,850 --> 01:16:54,390
So it's coming it seems to me.
No it's definitely coming.

1085
01:16:54,570 --> 01:16:57,960
It's just what would we have to
see as a firm to really jump in

1086
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:00,030
there and put a lot of resources
because as I said,

1087
01:17:00,030 --> 01:17:03,720
we have a lot of liquidity. Yeah.
Um, so when we see it, we can

1088
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,990
move very fast and quick. Yeah.
Take the Warren Buffett approach.

1089
01:17:06,990 --> 01:17:09,720
Just wait for the right pitch.
Right. There it is.

1090
01:17:11,100 --> 01:17:17,550
Um, you talked about sustainability.
Um, what about other aspects of ESG?

1091
01:17:17,790 --> 01:17:22,770
Ah. I'm glad you asked.
Um,

1092
01:17:23,760 --> 01:17:28,860
our social impact is the real thing.
You know, all the different,

1093
01:17:28,860 --> 01:17:32,400
you know, uh, uh,
abbreviations and the rest.

1094
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:36,210
What we're really about is
building really environmentally

1095
01:17:36,210 --> 01:17:41,010
friendly buildings that have
incredible positive economic and

1096
01:17:41,010 --> 01:17:45,510
other societal impact.
The way we do that in Anacostia.

1097
01:17:46,170 --> 01:17:50,100
And I'm very proud of our head
of construction because he

1098
01:17:50,100 --> 01:17:52,440
finally gets it.
He ran construction at JBG for

1099
01:17:52,440 --> 01:17:55,950
15 years.
Um, and at first, I think Paul was

1100
01:17:55,950 --> 01:18:00,300
trying to understand, you know,
just just how important it was

1101
01:18:00,300 --> 01:18:04,350
to upset the normal contracting
and subcontracting methods he

1102
01:18:04,350 --> 01:18:08,940
was used to, and really giving a
last look to the locals. Okay.

1103
01:18:08,940 --> 01:18:13,620
And by doing that and getting to
know the trade guilds and the local

1104
01:18:13,620 --> 01:18:16,890
firms that can deliver and that can
price and even getting involved at

1105
01:18:16,890 --> 01:18:21,570
times where we're convinced that the
local contractors may not understand

1106
01:18:21,570 --> 01:18:26,310
the unit pricing or something.
Um, we've set up a methodology for

1107
01:18:26,310 --> 01:18:32,880
local contractors to be able to win
and to employ hundreds of local,

1108
01:18:32,970 --> 01:18:38,040
uh, skilled workers, carpenters,
uh, steam fitters.

1109
01:18:38,910 --> 01:18:42,750
So you're mostly talking about
now mainly subs. Okay.

1110
01:18:42,810 --> 01:18:45,840
Because most of the projects
we're doing on the GC,

1111
01:18:45,870 --> 01:18:52,230
whether it's a GCM, uh, or CCM,
uh, uh, there's only a handful of

1112
01:18:52,230 --> 01:18:55,200
firms that can have the bonding
and do the size of the projects.

1113
01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:58,830
We're doing 3 or 4 or $500
million projects.

1114
01:18:58,860 --> 01:19:05,850
So but it's it's not only in the
discipline of demanding that our

1115
01:19:05,850 --> 01:19:09,180
contractors,
whether it's hit or Carr or others,

1116
01:19:09,180 --> 01:19:13,650
sit down with these firms, some of
which they've never met before, and,

1117
01:19:13,650 --> 01:19:17,700
and figure out a way to incorporate
them into a larger contract,

1118
01:19:17,700 --> 01:19:24,690
etc.. We have credibility.
And because of it, uh, a lot of the

1119
01:19:24,690 --> 01:19:30,420
local citizenry in the ward will
come out, uh, screaming and yelling,

1120
01:19:30,570 --> 01:19:35,460
uh, to, you know, to, uh, uh,
different approval authorities.

1121
01:19:36,090 --> 01:19:39,270
Um, let's go. We want jobs.
These guys are performing and

1122
01:19:39,270 --> 01:19:42,360
delivering for us.
So it's a very positive thing,

1123
01:19:42,360 --> 01:19:45,330
I think, with these 15 local
businesses going into our latest

1124
01:19:45,330 --> 01:19:52,380
building. Um, we get a lot of love.
Um, I'm constantly asked and I talk,

1125
01:19:52,380 --> 01:19:58,050
uh, uh, quite a bit a couple of
times a year at, uh,

1126
01:19:58,050 --> 01:20:01,680
churches in the community.
Faith based is really important.

1127
01:20:02,490 --> 01:20:06,330
Um, and talk about what we're up to.
Talk about opportunities.

1128
01:20:06,930 --> 01:20:10,800
Um, we have a head of community
engagement that used to had, uh,

1129
01:20:12,060 --> 01:20:14,670
community engagement, uh,
for the attorney general.

1130
01:20:15,660 --> 01:20:19,410
Uh, before coming to work here,
attorney general for D.C., um,

1131
01:20:19,410 --> 01:20:23,520
for attorney general was seen.
Um. She's unbelievable.

1132
01:20:24,300 --> 01:20:27,300
She was Award seven.
Unbelievable. Respected.

1133
01:20:27,300 --> 01:20:30,870
Just even the the nonprofit side
of what we do.

1134
01:20:30,870 --> 01:20:33,750
All the community groups that
are always needing stuff,

1135
01:20:33,750 --> 01:20:37,080
needing our involvement.
We are there for everybody in the

1136
01:20:37,080 --> 01:20:41,580
community. Great. And it takes.
It takes from the top.

1137
01:20:41,970 --> 01:20:46,980
It takes us stuffing turkeys, uh,
to, you know, sponsoring things,

1138
01:20:46,980 --> 01:20:51,690
to showing up,
cleaning out litter in a, in a park.

1139
01:20:51,690 --> 01:20:55,830
You know, in our service days where
we'll have 30 people from from red

1140
01:20:55,830 --> 01:20:59,610
brick. It it takes a commitment.
And with that commitment,

1141
01:20:59,610 --> 01:21:03,450
you build trust.
It's been over ten years of, uh,

1142
01:21:03,450 --> 01:21:07,410
of, uh, you know, uh,
doing what we said we're going to do.

1143
01:21:07,980 --> 01:21:11,250
Have you been hiring women and
minorities as well here?

1144
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:14,820
Oh my gosh. Yes. Great.
We hire the best people and they

1145
01:21:14,820 --> 01:21:17,700
come in every shape, size,
color, background.

1146
01:21:17,700 --> 01:21:21,090
And I think I think because of
that view.

1147
01:21:22,150 --> 01:21:27,190
We have a very diverse, uh,
group of people here.

1148
01:21:27,730 --> 01:21:34,720
Um, we we have, uh uh uh uh,
I don't know if it's it's really not

1149
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:39,430
quite half, but close to half of
the senior leadership are women.

1150
01:21:40,330 --> 01:21:43,150
That's excellent.
It's a very diverse team or a

1151
01:21:43,150 --> 01:21:48,220
very diverse team.
So that's your culture then?

1152
01:21:48,460 --> 01:21:52,420
It's the. It's the culture.
But the diversity would flow out

1153
01:21:52,420 --> 01:21:56,560
of the, the the the focus and the
policies that I'm describing to you.

1154
01:21:56,800 --> 01:21:59,350
This isn't something you can
hire like a diversity.

1155
01:21:59,380 --> 01:22:03,970
No person like to go.
You got you need to do it yourself.

1156
01:22:03,970 --> 01:22:07,840
You need to do it from the top down.
Then people come to trust you.

1157
01:22:07,840 --> 01:22:12,100
We have internship programs with
Anacostia High and Blue.

1158
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:14,710
Um,
the biggest challenge we have there?

1159
01:22:14,710 --> 01:22:18,490
Soft skills, you know, how do you
get the soft skills inculcated?

1160
01:22:18,490 --> 01:22:22,960
How how do you take a really
bright young person where maybe

1161
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:26,140
this is their first or second
job and have them understand

1162
01:22:26,140 --> 01:22:30,340
what's required of them?
Um, soft skills is the biggest thing.

1163
01:22:30,340 --> 01:22:33,520
It's not it's not the brainpower.
I agree. It's the soft skills.

1164
01:22:33,850 --> 01:22:36,880
And we have nonprofits that help
with that.

1165
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:40,150
That will literally put us an
intermediary on the soft skill side.

1166
01:22:40,150 --> 01:22:41,950
That's great.
We've got, uh,

1167
01:22:41,950 --> 01:22:45,610
our head of community engagement
who talks a lot of tough love,

1168
01:22:45,850 --> 01:22:50,500
especially to a lot of young people.
Um, but it works.

1169
01:22:50,500 --> 01:22:52,960
We have formal programs.
We have formal summer internships.

1170
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:56,860
We have internships, uh,
during the school year, uh,

1171
01:22:56,860 --> 01:23:02,140
really only for kids in the ward.
Um, so do you, uh, what how do

1172
01:23:02,140 --> 01:23:05,440
you recruit new employees?
What do you look for in an employee?

1173
01:23:07,270 --> 01:23:14,260
Um. Critical thinking.
We look for, uh, people that are

1174
01:23:14,260 --> 01:23:21,400
not going to default to sort of,
uh uh uh, an answer that would

1175
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:25,450
be the industry norm.
I mean, it isn't the industry norm to

1176
01:23:25,450 --> 01:23:31,150
be financing things the way we do.
It isn't the industry norm to be

1177
01:23:31,270 --> 01:23:34,030
building net-zero buildings
right now,

1178
01:23:34,330 --> 01:23:38,770
especially when there's no financing.
But conversely, there's more

1179
01:23:38,770 --> 01:23:43,240
financing for green stuff.
So there's logic to what we're doing.

1180
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:44,950
It's just not the conventional
wisdom.

1181
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:50,590
So it's really not the kid that's
at biz now trying to soak up and

1182
01:23:50,590 --> 01:23:54,400
hear from talking heads that are
all saying the same thing.

1183
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:58,210
That's that's not the culture here.
Um, both of my partners worked

1184
01:23:58,210 --> 01:24:02,770
at McKinsey.
One of them ran one of the largest,

1185
01:24:02,770 --> 01:24:09,580
uh, private equity groups at
McKinsey, was global co-head, um,

1186
01:24:10,540 --> 01:24:14,650
out of the box critical thinking.
Just to look. At things differently.

1187
01:24:14,650 --> 01:24:18,760
If you look at things differently,
it's hard if you're not willing to

1188
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:24,220
go home, um, exhausted mentally,
it's probably not the right place.

1189
01:24:24,220 --> 01:24:26,920
So you challenge everything
you're challenging.

1190
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:30,790
And why is this the right answer?
Why does this make sense?

1191
01:24:30,790 --> 01:24:33,160
Why does it make sense to things
the way we do it?

1192
01:24:33,730 --> 01:24:38,260
And at the end of the day, it makes
great sense to the three of us.

1193
01:24:38,260 --> 01:24:43,240
I mean, we are not merchant builders
here. This isn't the place to come.

1194
01:24:43,240 --> 01:24:47,260
And, you know, build a building and
building as cheap as you can and move

1195
01:24:47,260 --> 01:24:50,200
on to the next. It's the opposite.
Everything we're doing here is

1196
01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:55,510
to future proof its legacy.
You know, long term. That's great.

1197
01:24:55,930 --> 01:24:58,660
That's that's what's needed
today in this environment.

1198
01:24:58,660 --> 01:25:05,440
Certainly. So since this.
Podcast is aimed at young real

1199
01:25:05,440 --> 01:25:08,530
estate professionals,
please offer your thoughts on where

1200
01:25:08,530 --> 01:25:12,040
you would be focused today in both
investment development businesses,

1201
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:14,530
product types, geographies
you've already talked about

1202
01:25:14,530 --> 01:25:19,300
residential geographies, niches.
I mean, if I'm coming out of school,

1203
01:25:19,300 --> 01:25:21,580
what would I be looking at?
You look at things differently.

1204
01:25:21,580 --> 01:25:29,830
Would you encourage people to do the
same? Yeah. Um, data centers. Yes.

1205
01:25:30,490 --> 01:25:38,020
I would look at the confluence
of technology, um, um,

1206
01:25:38,020 --> 01:25:41,020
resilience and energy.
It's not intuitive,

1207
01:25:41,020 --> 01:25:44,230
but data centers are very much
dependent on cheap energy. Yeah.

1208
01:25:44,260 --> 01:25:46,630
Just talk to Loudoun County.
Which, yes.

1209
01:25:46,630 --> 01:25:49,720
Doesn't have any energy left.
I toured one of my community.

1210
01:25:49,810 --> 01:25:55,240
You did? Recent. Then you understand.
So this is where there's huge

1211
01:25:55,240 --> 01:26:01,180
growth in my other life.
I'm, uh, I'm chair of, uh, react,

1212
01:26:01,180 --> 01:26:05,200
which is the real estate board of New
York common. So I chaired that board.

1213
01:26:05,200 --> 01:26:07,360
I've been on that board.
I've been on the react board for 20

1214
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:12,520
years, one of the largest, uh, uh,
public pension plans in the country.

1215
01:26:12,550 --> 01:26:16,240
Um, um, recently,
I don't want to say which managers,

1216
01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:21,550
but two of the top managers were in
and they both have as one of their

1217
01:26:21,550 --> 01:26:27,940
niche focuses, um, uh, data centers.
There's a company here in Washington,

1218
01:26:27,940 --> 01:26:31,000
Iron Point Partners,
who are very active in that.

1219
01:26:31,180 --> 01:26:37,150
Um, but it's so needed.
There's no such thing as, um,

1220
01:26:37,150 --> 01:26:41,560
lack of demand anywhere for this.
It's sort of like what logistics

1221
01:26:41,560 --> 01:26:45,610
was five years ago.
Um, you know, when we started being

1222
01:26:45,610 --> 01:26:49,300
able Amazon and the others needed
all these distribution points and

1223
01:26:49,300 --> 01:26:53,860
logistics was the greatest amazing
thing. It cost nothing to build.

1224
01:26:53,860 --> 01:26:57,550
You could put it up quick.
Um, but data centers and there's

1225
01:26:57,550 --> 01:27:04,120
technology. There's engineering.
Uh, around energy where you're

1226
01:27:04,120 --> 01:27:06,400
going to get it, how much it costs.
Well,

1227
01:27:06,400 --> 01:27:11,680
I is just accelerated that from I.
So, you know, that's a really

1228
01:27:11,680 --> 01:27:16,150
cool place for a 20 something,
uh, to be focused.

1229
01:27:16,150 --> 01:27:20,020
In my view,
there's still a lot of legs left,

1230
01:27:20,050 --> 01:27:24,520
you know, in logistics plays.
Yes. And life sciences.

1231
01:27:25,210 --> 01:27:32,530
Um, but any kind of, uh,
conventional thought on office

1232
01:27:32,530 --> 01:27:37,060
or even multifamily today,
I would stay away from it.

1233
01:27:37,060 --> 01:27:39,490
Unless you want to go through
the pain of reinventing some of

1234
01:27:39,490 --> 01:27:42,280
these industries.
Multifamily, I think just because

1235
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:46,660
of cap rate compression and rates,
it's got to be down 20%.

1236
01:27:47,230 --> 01:27:51,730
Just if you do the numbers from where
it was on the high post pandemic.

1237
01:27:52,060 --> 01:27:56,530
Uh, my gut is that place making
is more important than ever,

1238
01:27:57,010 --> 01:28:01,600
and not only place making,
but a reason to come to the office.

1239
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:07,090
Yeah, and that's one of our number
one issues here is on placemaking,

1240
01:28:07,090 --> 01:28:09,250
on some of these new parts of
town that we're building.

1241
01:28:09,610 --> 01:28:14,200
Uh, we're teaming up very unlikely
people and co-heads of projects,

1242
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:19,180
one with an incredible placemaking
background, one with incredible

1243
01:28:19,180 --> 01:28:25,510
budgetary and, you know,
financial, uh, acumen of of what

1244
01:28:25,510 --> 01:28:28,030
do I need to spend to get this?
Look, we're teaming up different

1245
01:28:28,030 --> 01:28:33,910
kinds of people, um, to come at the
placemaking, uh, answer pretty well.

1246
01:28:33,910 --> 01:28:37,030
And our office here,
we wanted great placemaking.

1247
01:28:37,030 --> 01:28:40,090
We wanted a really nice place
here where people that literally

1248
01:28:40,090 --> 01:28:42,100
like when you came in,
you saw everyone having lunch.

1249
01:28:42,190 --> 01:28:45,340
When you build these nice spaces,
people stay in the office,

1250
01:28:45,700 --> 01:28:50,530
they want to be together.
Um, you need generous space.

1251
01:28:50,530 --> 01:28:53,740
People want the space.
You can't cram people together the

1252
01:28:53,740 --> 01:28:58,420
way you used to be able to. Um.
And you lead from from the very top.

1253
01:28:58,420 --> 01:29:03,130
I mean, Tom, William and I, we have
small offices. It's very rare.

1254
01:29:03,130 --> 01:29:06,790
We need in our office space for more
than three people. There you go.

1255
01:29:06,790 --> 01:29:11,470
So we don't we don't need big space.
And when you start with that,

1256
01:29:11,470 --> 01:29:16,420
and a lot of your senior members
also have, uh, sort of the same

1257
01:29:16,420 --> 01:29:20,830
size office as you do.
I know it sounds silly, but, uh,

1258
01:29:20,830 --> 01:29:24,130
it it creates a very collegial,
um, you know,

1259
01:29:24,130 --> 01:29:29,500
teamwork kind of environment. Sure.
Even if it's subliminal. So our, uh.

1260
01:29:30,430 --> 01:29:33,820
Louis, what are your life priorities?
Family, work in getting back?

1261
01:29:35,500 --> 01:29:40,390
Um, well, family is first.
Um, it's the first thing I tell

1262
01:29:40,390 --> 01:29:43,120
people when they're, like,
in final stages of interview,

1263
01:29:43,120 --> 01:29:45,430
and it always throws them off
when they said to me,

1264
01:29:45,430 --> 01:29:47,890
what are the priorities here?
And I'd say the first priority

1265
01:29:47,890 --> 01:29:51,070
is your family.
And people usually look

1266
01:29:51,070 --> 01:29:54,040
especially young people.
I'm like, look, you're you're a

1267
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:59,020
new parent or this or that.
The needs of your your family, your

1268
01:29:59,020 --> 01:30:02,910
community, your elderly neighbors.
Your parents, your church,

1269
01:30:02,910 --> 01:30:09,090
your synagogue.
Um, those needs are always first.

1270
01:30:10,470 --> 01:30:12,810
Um, that doesn't mean you don't
work very hard.

1271
01:30:13,410 --> 01:30:16,530
It means that if you need to go to an
important soccer game or go to a

1272
01:30:16,530 --> 01:30:19,830
doctor's appointment with somebody,
you're just you're finishing the

1273
01:30:19,830 --> 01:30:22,560
work at 3 a.m..
Those are the people we want here.

1274
01:30:22,590 --> 01:30:24,510
We don't want people who are
going to have to babysit.

1275
01:30:25,140 --> 01:30:28,440
You just got to get your work done.
We don't we don't need to see

1276
01:30:28,440 --> 01:30:31,800
your time card.
Um, but at the same time,

1277
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:34,920
family and community first.
And I think that goes a long way

1278
01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:36,990
with people.
I think it's one of the reasons that

1279
01:30:36,990 --> 01:30:40,710
so many people feel comfortable here.
It doesn't mean for a minute

1280
01:30:40,710 --> 01:30:43,860
that this is slack, or people
are like going to the beach,

1281
01:30:43,890 --> 01:30:48,870
you know, for the week. No.
Um, but we are only hiring adults

1282
01:30:48,870 --> 01:30:51,990
that know how to organize themselves
to get projects and work done.

1283
01:30:52,710 --> 01:30:58,770
So family definitely first.
Um, community is very important.

1284
01:30:58,770 --> 01:31:02,580
We live it here.
Um, very important to me.

1285
01:31:03,090 --> 01:31:06,330
Um, my family's always been very
involved.

1286
01:31:06,330 --> 01:31:09,270
Uh, philanthropically, we do a lot of
stuff we don't really talk a lot

1287
01:31:09,270 --> 01:31:13,230
about that does a lot of really
good things within the community.

1288
01:31:13,590 --> 01:31:18,060
Um, including in Anacostia.
Um, but these are really important,

1289
01:31:18,060 --> 01:31:22,230
you know, things that people should
also balance with their work life.

1290
01:31:22,230 --> 01:31:26,370
And then it work, you know,
do do something spectacular

1291
01:31:26,370 --> 01:31:30,150
whatever you're doing on the team.
You know, be spectacular at it,

1292
01:31:30,300 --> 01:31:33,240
but also do your work.
Make sure that that's

1293
01:31:33,240 --> 01:31:36,750
spectacular you're trying to do.
You footed and vetted pretty well.

1294
01:31:37,890 --> 01:31:40,440
What advice would you give your
25 year old self?

1295
01:31:50,530 --> 01:31:55,390
I'd probably do everything exactly as
I did it right. Yep. That's great.

1296
01:31:55,420 --> 01:31:58,480
I mean, I've had all these
amazing different lives. Yeah.

1297
01:31:58,510 --> 01:32:03,700
Home builder, right, at a law school.
Was a fed for a few years.

1298
01:32:03,730 --> 01:32:06,850
Huge power. Really fun, really cool.
Had the whole country.

1299
01:32:07,000 --> 01:32:09,220
It taught me the language of
Wall Street.

1300
01:32:09,220 --> 01:32:13,960
It taught me the ability I had
Goldman and Morgan Stanley and

1301
01:32:14,380 --> 01:32:17,620
Paine Webber at the time,
and first Boston and all these

1302
01:32:17,620 --> 01:32:20,470
groups. As my financial advisor.
Jones Lang LaSalle was actually

1303
01:32:20,470 --> 01:32:24,280
the cell partners at the time.
And all these these when I was very

1304
01:32:24,280 --> 01:32:30,490
young, teaching me the language of,
of, of finance and investment so that

1305
01:32:30,490 --> 01:32:34,720
I can start my own firm, do that,
live in New York for 20 years. Yeah.

1306
01:32:35,020 --> 01:32:38,830
Did really well with all that,
the life experiences.

1307
01:32:38,830 --> 01:32:40,900
I had two offices overseas back
then as well.

1308
01:32:40,900 --> 01:32:43,690
We didn't even go into,
but the life experience, I've had

1309
01:32:43,690 --> 01:32:47,380
so many life experiences then to
be able to go around the world and

1310
01:32:47,380 --> 01:32:56,200
come back home of an eight year old,
uh uh, son, um, and a 20 year old

1311
01:32:56,530 --> 01:33:02,320
in my 28 year old's in New York.
Um, but I'm back home and I like

1312
01:33:02,320 --> 01:33:04,960
Kiss the Ground. Being back home.
This is my hometown.

1313
01:33:05,260 --> 01:33:08,680
It's good to be back here.
Doing something with real gravitas.

1314
01:33:08,710 --> 01:33:11,140
Is, uh.
That you've had some struggles,

1315
01:33:11,140 --> 01:33:13,210
too, and you learn from.
Them, right? Absolutely.

1316
01:33:13,210 --> 01:33:18,130
And and but the emotional capital
you get in coming home and doing

1317
01:33:18,130 --> 01:33:22,630
all this in your, in your backyard
and building a new place, a whole

1318
01:33:22,630 --> 01:33:26,770
new part of town is, is exciting.
My final question for sure,

1319
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:31,630
if you could post a statement on a
billboard on the Capital Beltway for

1320
01:33:31,630 --> 01:33:37,810
millions to see, what would it say?
Go for it. All right.

1321
01:33:38,260 --> 01:33:40,690
Louis Dohrmann,
thank you very much for your time.

1322
01:33:40,690 --> 01:33:43,360
I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much.

1323
01:33:43,360 --> 01:33:45,970
Really appreciate it.
It's been great. Thank you.