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So Liz, welcome to icons of DC
Area Real Estate.

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Thank you for joining me today.
It's a pleasure to be with you John.

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Thank you.
So you started your console,

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your consultancy, the winger Group,
a communications consulting company,

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in 2000. I understand.
Please describe your role there

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at a high level and how it has
evolved over the years since you

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founding the company.
What makes a seasoned

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communications professional,
as you suggest in your website?

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So I started Ranger Group after,
having done a number of different

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things in the communications area.
It was a reporter at the

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Washington Post.
And, and I realized pretty early

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on that, I liked a lot of
aspects of reporting,

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but I didn't like its intrusiveness.
And so, decided to tell my

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to help other people tell their
stories and then worked for a

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couple of organizations doing that.
And so when I started Ranger Group

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in 2000, I started it to be the
firm that I always wanted to hire

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when I was on the client side.
And that was to be a true

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communications partner, deliver
really high quality work, but also.

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Help organizations use communications
to be stronger organizations.

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And so I started simply as me and a
card and a computer and a card table.

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And we have grown.
I have still maintained,

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the the model that I have.
I started out as a virtual company

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when people weren't doing that.
And the idea was to create just

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in time consulting so that there
were only seasoned,

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people who knew what they were doing,
working on clients jobs.

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Oftentimes in communications firms,
you would have the principals

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sell you the work, and then you would never see

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the principals again.
And they were brilliant.

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So then you'd have the 22 year old.
Not that there's anything wrong

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with 22 year olds.
We love 22 year olds, but they don't

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necessarily have all the experience
sometimes required. And so my role.

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Has always been kind of chief
strategist and assembling the

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right teams.
To address client needs,

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and we started out as a very
traditional PR firm primarily

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focused on media relations.
And we have grown to be,

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focused more on designing
communications programs.

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And working with organizations
as much on their internal

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communication structure as they
do on their external.

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Because if you don't have the
foundation inside.

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You're you're not necessarily
able to deliver on communication.

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So that's a long winded answer
to your question.

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So what I'd like to try to do is
go back to the origin of your you,

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and then how you got to the point
where, you felt like you were

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ready to start your own gig.
So we're going to go way back to

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your start and then go through
your educational process and your

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corporate experience and your
newspaper experience leading up to.

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You know there's a better way to
do this. So if you would do that.

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Sure. Appreciate that.
So I always tell people that I

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am your classic liberal arts.
Person who had to try a lot of

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different things before they
found their true calling,

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or their true work experience.
I have always been interested in

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communication and I can remember
as a child. When. Nixon.

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Went to, China, when he, you know,

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met with the Russians.
On the Russian side, there was an

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interpreter named Victor Sugiura.
And this man could.

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When he translated in Britain,
he had a British accent.

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When he translated in the US,
he sounded like he was from the

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Midwest. It was extraordinary to me.
And I said, I want to do that.

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I want to be an interpreter.
How old were you at the time?

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I was probably. 9 or 10.
At that age. You. Yes.

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And I said I, I was I've always
been fascinated by language.

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I've always been fascinated by
communication.

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But that just watching that man said,
I want to do that. Okay. So let your.

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Parents inspire you at all in
any of that.

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I wouldn't say they encouraged it,
let's put it that way.

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that. They loved, books.

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They loved learning, so.
We if we wanted to buy a book, we

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could that that was always any book
you want. You want to buy a book?

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We can buy a book.
You want to buy a toy?

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That's a different thing.
You know, I had toys,

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to be sure, but books were.
Yes, that's that's important.

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We would go to the library,
the bookmobile,

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if you remember what that was.
It was like a portable library

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that would come to different
shopping centers.

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We would do that every Thursday
night and we would check out books.

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So were they they always parents?
Were they teachers or were they? No.

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My parents my father was a physician.
Okay.

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And my mother, actually had
worked in television in the 50s.

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She had worked for ABC in New York, then then she married my father,

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and,
they moved to Philadelphia and she

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couldn't find a comparable job.
So she ended up, basically

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raising us, and she raised us.
To be good writers because she

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was a good writer.
And to be good communicators because

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that was that was important to her.
That's her thing. That was her thing.

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And, just a quick story
about her, after she died,

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she she made notes about all the
different things in the house

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that she wanted people to have.
And my sister got this,

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family China.
And my mother had written a

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whole description of this China,
and it went like this.

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Let me tell you about all the
hands who've touched this.

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And she went back.
To the first people who had the

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China and who they were.
You know her,

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I think it was her grandparents
and and basically told a family

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history through the this China set.
So my mother was a good storyteller.

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I learned that at her knee.
And, she also, if I know how

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to write, it's because of my mother.
I would she would say,

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I don't want to see your papers
in junior high or high school.

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and then they would come back

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and I'd get an A, and my mother
would look at it and say, well,

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I wouldn't have given this an A,
and she, you know, and sometimes

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it sounded harsh and she'd say, this is not well written.

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Let me show you what a well written.
And then she would sit with me.

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And and show me how to have made
that better.

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And then she would say,
go back and rewrite it. Right.

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Even I don't care that you got
the A cause. That doesn't matter.

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It's you. You could do.
You could write better. So.

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I learned that from her and, and
was always again fascinated by how do

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you get people who don't understand
each other to understand each other?

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That's what I thought an
interpreter did.

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So fast forward, I,
I go to college and I say, well, I

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want to be an interpreter at the UN.
I got to learn three languages

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that are part of the five UN
Security Council languages.

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So I pick Russian and Spanish, and I
had taken Spanish in high school.

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I had actually taken Russian in
high school, and I decided to

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become a Russian major, and, my last year of college,

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I did some interpretation for Russian
speaking immigrants at hospitals.

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And I realized I wanted to edit.
The doctors would say stuff.

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I'd say, oh gosh, they say that.
That's terrible. So I wanted to edit.

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And I said, well, that's not
going to make a good interpreter.

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If you want to edit,
you have to do it.

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You have to it goes in one way,
comes out the other way,

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and you can't. It's not about you.
And that's when I said, well, that's

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definitely not going to be for me, and so I took a different

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direction. Interesting. Yeah.
So when did you decide to do

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what you decided to do?
I think that was journalism

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right out of college, right?
It was not. It was.

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So having worked in a hospital
and being a very curious person.

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Okay.
I would watch the doctors and I

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would say, oh,
why are you doing that treatment?

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Oh, why do you think that person has
that? Oh, that's really interesting.

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Even though my father was a
physician, I had no interest in it.

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You know,
I hadn't really thought about it.

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And I said, wow,
this is really interesting.

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I don't know why I never thought
of this.

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I'm going to go to medical school.
And so.

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But I realized, well,
I never took organic chemistry.

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I never took mathematics.
I never took these things.

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Maybe you should work in a
hospital and see if you really

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want to do this.
So I got a job at Mass General

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Hospital.
And I ended up doing,

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in the social work department,
doing discharge planning.

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And that taught me so much about
communication.

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It taught me how to spot when
people were not telling you the

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truth because they wanted to get, certain medical benefits.

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a big organization.

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for empathy and compassion.

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silent observer and group therapy to,

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today they would not let you do

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with a bachelor's in Russian.
But they did.

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And after two years of that,
I realized and having seen a lot of,

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you know, deaf and hard things,
I said, no, I'm not going to do that.

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Europe, and I'm going to go

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travel for a while, which I did.
Three months turned into a year.

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And when I came back, I said,
okay, it's time to get serious.

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I'm going to go work for the
United States Information Agency.

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They had a program where you could.

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Go to Moscow and they had an
exhibit of American life,

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and they needed people to to be
guides and I so I got into the

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program, I moved to Washington,
and the Russians shoot down a

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jetliner and there's no cultural
exchange programs. Kaput. Ski.

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Right. So what do you do?
Well, I could type and I get a

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temp job at the Washington Post,
and that's how I got into journalism.

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00:12:04,830 --> 00:12:09,030. Okay.
So are you fluent in Russian?

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At one time I was I just don't use it.

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It's been a really long time,
but I, my last year of college I

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taught Russian,
at the college, you know,

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taught language with a professor.
We team taught and I spent some

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time in the former Soviet Union. Many, many years ago.

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so at one time I could speak

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quite well, I understand it.
I just it's hard for me to,

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you know, would come back,
but I just don't have the time.

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Was it just interest in the language,
or were you thinking professionally?

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You thought you'd be a translator?
Is that what?

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Yeah, that's what I thought I
was going to do.

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And and then I realized that that
wasn't really what I wanted to do.

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I, you know, interpretation is,
is simultaneous, right?

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And translation is, is written, and, I was more interested

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in the interpretation side.
I thought that was just so

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fascinating.
But what what I've come to realize,

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looking back on all of this is
that I've always interested,

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have always been interested in
bridging gaps of understanding and

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helping people understand each other.
It just took me a while to find

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the right way for me to take
those skills to do that.

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Talk about the the difference between
interpretation and translation. Well.

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In my mind, interpretation,
is live. Okay. People are speaking.

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So you're listening to what they're
saying, and then you're taking those

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words and as accurately as possible.
Putting them into another format,

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but somebody else can understand.
And it's live.

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So you listen, right? Translation.
I think of more as translating

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documents, translating literature.
That's a whole specialty in of

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itself,
because you have to be a good writer.

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You have to understand imagery.
You have to understand well in

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that language.
You can't that's, that's that's a

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certain way that, that that they
express that in that language.

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But what would be the equivalent
in English?

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It may not be exactly literal,
but you're trying to express the same

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idea. So they're very much related, there, the two aspects of it.

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And I feel like in,
in many ways. In what I do now.

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I'm helping people in one world
understand. The other world.

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have different styles of accessing
the world and information

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understand each other.
And so those experiences,

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even though at the time they
felt very disjointed.

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And very. You know what?
You know, my father kept saying,

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when are you going to.
When are you going to figure out

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what you're going to do?
Because every week it was,

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I'm going to be this, I'm going to
do this, I'm going to try this.

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And I'm really grateful that I
did all of that.

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And I, you know, I try, I,
I thought I was going to do

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filmmaking at one point.
So I worked with the filmmaker

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for a little bit, you know,
more on a voluntary basis.

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I realized that that's what's

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driven me in my life's work,
is to help people understand each

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other and understand the value
that they bring to each other.

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Even when they don't always have
the right words or the what

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right ways to to get that across
that were that were that bridge.

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Yeah, I when I saw that you were
a major in Russian.

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To me is a such a foreign
language in so many ways that

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and then translating to what you
do now just seemed to me there

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00:16:19,390 --> 00:16:25,060
was a some bridge that you were
trying to gap for crossover from

221
00:16:25,060 --> 00:16:30,220
Russian to English and the,
the idiosyncrasies, the idioms

222
00:16:30,220 --> 00:16:34,480
and the different aspects of the
languages are completely different.

223
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,610
The origin of the languages are
different.

224
00:16:36,730 --> 00:16:41,470
So you have to I mean, there's a
lot of interpretation there. Yeah.

225
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,520
Well, and, you know, different
cultures, different approaches,

226
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,960
but that's, that is actually not
dissimilar to what you find in

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00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,130
business. Right? Right.
Different companies have their own

228
00:16:54,130 --> 00:16:58,420
cultures and their own ways of doing
things, and their own different

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00:16:58,420 --> 00:17:01,240
fields have their own language,
their own jargon,

230
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,660
their own ways of expressing, even.
Within the real estate industry,

231
00:17:04,660 --> 00:17:08,650
there's so many different varieties
of varieties on the theme as we'll

232
00:17:08,650 --> 00:17:13,840
get into. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
And you know, and that.

233
00:17:15,310 --> 00:17:18,820
You know, I sort of fell into
journalism. I didn't.

234
00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:22,120
I had no intention of being a
journalist. I, you know.

235
00:17:23,550 --> 00:17:29,430
It was, just as I got a temp
job there, in advertising.

236
00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:32,910
And they offered me a job in
advertising. It's not like this.

237
00:17:32,910 --> 00:17:36,840
And this one gentleman said, well,
I bet you like the newsroom better.

238
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,850
And he introduced me to the people
who, who hired copy aides.

239
00:17:41,850 --> 00:17:44,940
You know, I start at the very bottom.
I mean, I sorted mail and,

240
00:17:44,940 --> 00:17:49,570
you know, in the newsroom, and.
But for me,

241
00:17:49,570 --> 00:17:56,400
it was just kind of extra money.
And then. You know, I got a call.

242
00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:01,590, I had taken a full time job
with a foundation, and,

243
00:18:01,710 --> 00:18:04,980
I had gotten a call from the post, they said, well,

244
00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:08,340
we need somebody to come in at night
and take dictation from reporters

245
00:18:08,340 --> 00:18:12,090
filing stories in the field, I said, okay, I'll do that.

246
00:18:12,090 --> 00:18:14,820
So I worked a couple jobs, you know,
I would work during the day,

247
00:18:14,820 --> 00:18:18,060
get over there.
And one night, somebody didn't

248
00:18:18,060 --> 00:18:20,580
show up to cover a party,
and they sent me.

249
00:18:21,610 --> 00:18:26,260
And that, you know,
that's how it started, literally.

250
00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:29,050
So then, you know,
the social page is that was.

251
00:18:29,050 --> 00:18:31,510
I was in the style section and
this was pre-internet.

252
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:36,010
So they needed people to to the
reporters filing stories,

253
00:18:36,010 --> 00:18:38,560
you know, type,
their type what they were saying.

254
00:18:38,650 --> 00:18:43,090
And, I remember it was a the
editor said, well,

255
00:18:43,090 --> 00:18:46,690
a reporter didn't show up, and I was
just sitting there and I was body.

256
00:18:46,690 --> 00:18:49,000
They said, here's what you do.
You go to this party.

257
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,930, look at the food.
Look at the wine.

258
00:18:52,930 --> 00:18:56,470
You know, get that down and get
quotes from these five people.

259
00:18:57,070 --> 00:18:59,410
Like, okay, I can do this.
Get in a cab, do this.

260
00:18:59,410 --> 00:19:03,400
And I get there and I'm like,
wow, I'm Woodward and Bernstein.

261
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,870
I'm I'm going to go get the story.
And I interviewed people with a

262
00:19:07,870 --> 00:19:13,210
D.C. statehood party.
And, on the way back in the cab,

263
00:19:13,210 --> 00:19:17,110
I started writing this story,
and I turned it in, and I,

264
00:19:17,110 --> 00:19:20,410
the editor said,
you've never done this before.

265
00:19:20,410 --> 00:19:23,140
I said, I'm sorry, you know?
And she said, actually, for somebody

266
00:19:23,140 --> 00:19:26,650
who's never done this before,
this is not bad, you know,

267
00:19:26,650 --> 00:19:31,840
and and so I kind of got that bug.
And so I would, you know,

268
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,990
do administrative work.
And then I started freelancing.

269
00:19:34,990 --> 00:19:39,580
Stories feature stories,
stories about artists.

270
00:19:40,180 --> 00:19:45,190, and so I it was like a Cinderella
thing by day. I would sort mail.

271
00:19:45,790 --> 00:19:50,260
I quit my foundation job eventually.
So by day I would sort mail, and then

272
00:19:50,260 --> 00:19:53,770
at night, I'd go cover parties at
the white House or parties here.

273
00:19:53,770 --> 00:19:58,210
Parties, you know,
Pamela Harriman or whatever, with

274
00:19:58,210 --> 00:20:01,750
sometimes with a more senior with a
senior reporter because I wasn't.

275
00:20:01,750 --> 00:20:06,820
And then, eventually I got a job
in the home section at the post,

276
00:20:06,820 --> 00:20:11,050
and then, my editors there
who were incredibly supportive,

277
00:20:11,050 --> 00:20:15,060
said, you should be an intern.
So I was one of the oldest interns

278
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,860
because I, you know, by this point
I was probably late 20s and.

279
00:20:21,330 --> 00:20:24,890, I went out to Metro.
Covered Northern Virginia.

280
00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:30,730
Cops, courts, the whole bit.
And, after a few months,

281
00:20:30,730 --> 00:20:34,840
you know, about, like, maybe
a year of that, I said, you know,

282
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:39,160
I would I was going to have to go to
a smaller paper and then come back,

283
00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:46,180
and I realized I didn't really
want it badly enough to do that.

284
00:20:46,180 --> 00:20:48,190
And that's when I made the
switch into PR.

285
00:20:48,190 --> 00:20:50,290
I said, well,
now I know how to tell stories.

286
00:20:50,620 --> 00:20:52,810
How can I help other people tell
stories?

287
00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:56,560
What was it, a journalism you
liked and not and didn't like?

288
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:02,200
I loved, I loved reporting, yeah,

289
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,560
I actually liked feature writing.
That was a really good feature

290
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:11,940
writer. I liked.
Getting hearing people's stories

291
00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:17,430
and then figuring out how to tell
that story honestly that reflected

292
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:23,780
them or what the situation was, what I didn't like about it.

293
00:21:24,230 --> 00:21:26,990
Especially as a metro reporter,
I, you know, was sent out.

294
00:21:26,990 --> 00:21:29,720
There was some guy that,
was finally going to get.

295
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,300, I think executed for some
murder that he'd done.

296
00:21:34,540 --> 00:21:37,840
And I was asked to go to the
neighborhood where this crime had

297
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,990
occurred and knock on doors and ask
neighbors how they felt about that.

298
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,080.
Or, you know, kid was killed in

299
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,840
a drunk driving accident.
Call the family.

300
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,500
Ask them how they feel. And I just.
And I think part of that was

301
00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:59,750
also the social work background.
You know why why would I do this?

302
00:21:59,750 --> 00:22:04,130
Why would I ask them how they feel?
They feel terrible, you know.

303
00:22:04,430 --> 00:22:08,600, and some people said some
reporters said to me, well, you know,

304
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:14,330
some people see it as an opportunity
to memorialize this wonderful person.

305
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,960
I said, okay, that's true.
But on the other hand, one of the

306
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:22,460
things that I've learned later on
doing some other communications with

307
00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:28,430
some nonprofits is that there's
a power dynamic here and even.

308
00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:32,850
People don't often realize when
they tell their story.

309
00:22:33,530 --> 00:22:35,180
That their neighbor is going to
see it.

310
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:37,850
You know, they're not really
thinking about that.

311
00:22:38,180 --> 00:22:42,830
So I felt like I wasn't going to
like who I was going to need to be.

312
00:22:43,670 --> 00:22:51,580
For me to do that. And.
And so I decided that okay, I,

313
00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:54,250
I have learned from the best.
I had five years at the

314
00:22:54,250 --> 00:22:56,590
Washington Post.
I was there at an incredibly

315
00:22:56,590 --> 00:23:00,010
exciting time.
I met amazing people, had a great

316
00:23:00,010 --> 00:23:06,060
mentors. And I learned a lot.
I didn't need to go to graduate

317
00:23:06,060 --> 00:23:10,080
school in journalism.
I got it there and said, well,

318
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,510
I'm going to go help people tell
their stories.

319
00:23:12,510 --> 00:23:14,970
And,
my first job out of journalism

320
00:23:14,970 --> 00:23:18,900
was American student architects.
What what drove you that in that

321
00:23:18,900 --> 00:23:22,530
direction?
Well, I loved architecture.

322
00:23:22,530 --> 00:23:27,960
And I learned about architecture
through a survey course in college

323
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:34,020
on art history and the fact that
the way that buildings and our

324
00:23:34,020 --> 00:23:39,450
cities communicated who we were and
who we are or who we're becoming,

325
00:23:39,450 --> 00:23:42,240
I thought was fascinating and
something I had never really been

326
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:47,220
exposed to. So when I was at.
In the home section.

327
00:23:47,220 --> 00:23:50,340
I interviewed a lot of architects,
and I work with a lot of people,

328
00:23:50,670 --> 00:23:53,610
mostly in obviously residential
architects.

329
00:23:53,790 --> 00:23:57,360
But for example,
I remember because this is stuck

330
00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:02,900
in my head, I interviewed.
Charles Guggenheim, the filmmaker.

331
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,380
Yeah, he had just done something
on I forget which architect.

332
00:24:06,380 --> 00:24:08,600
And I remember him saying,
you know, the problem with

333
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,660
making a film on architecture is
that buildings don't move.

334
00:24:11,990 --> 00:24:16,970
I can still remember that quote,
like, so many years later, but.

335
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:23,060
And so when I realized that I
wanted to leave journalism, I,

336
00:24:23,060 --> 00:24:29,090
reached out to people at the AIA.
And, they had a job in their

337
00:24:29,090 --> 00:24:33,590
practice division, not the PR
division to write a newsletter.

338
00:24:34,750 --> 00:24:38,420, for the practice, you know,

339
00:24:38,420 --> 00:24:41,690
about about architectural
practice for architects.

340
00:24:42,170 --> 00:24:45,470
And this was a newsletter.
It was two page newsletter and

341
00:24:45,470 --> 00:24:50,060
it was taken, you know,
months to get one issue out.

342
00:24:50,060 --> 00:24:52,580
And so I get in there, you know,
I have this journalism background,

343
00:24:52,580 --> 00:24:56,390
like I said.
Well, let me go interview

344
00:24:56,390 --> 00:24:58,970
everybody. Let me.
So in a week I had written this,

345
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:03,020
written the whole thing,
and laid out all the pages because

346
00:25:03,020 --> 00:25:08,640
I learned how to do that, too.
And. And I said, now what?

347
00:25:09,270 --> 00:25:12,360
And he said, you're done already?
I said, yeah.

348
00:25:12,390 --> 00:25:14,670
I mean,
you said it was a tight deadline.

349
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,980
And he said, yeah, it was a month.
I said, no, no,

350
00:25:16,980 --> 00:25:21,900
I'm used to like hours. So.
So that and then eventually I

351
00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:25,020
moved into the PR department and
then eventually ran the PR

352
00:25:25,020 --> 00:25:31,140
department there. Interesting.
So, you you like buildings,

353
00:25:31,140 --> 00:25:34,230
you'd like to write about buildings,
and and I.

354
00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:38,610
Like buildings,
and I like what's interesting about

355
00:25:38,610 --> 00:25:43,350
buildings is what they do and
what they mean to humans. Right.

356
00:25:43,770 --> 00:25:48,840
And so, you know,
I always tell the story to one

357
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,130
of my first assignments when I
moved to the PR department.

358
00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:59,240
Was they needed somebody to write
the jury comments for the AIA Honor

359
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:05,450
Awards. So they sent me to New York.
It was at som.

360
00:26:06,580 --> 00:26:11,200
David Childs office, and, in the room was,

361
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,780, just a very,
August group of architects.

362
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,580
I think it was Michael Graves,
I think. Wow. I think Mike Geary.

363
00:26:22,850 --> 00:26:27,890
Not in that particular one I had,
but it was Michael Michael Graves,

364
00:26:27,890 --> 00:26:30,110
Brendan Gill,
who was the architecture critic of

365
00:26:30,110 --> 00:26:37,650
New York Times. David Childs, I'm trying to remember it was a

366
00:26:37,650 --> 00:26:41,190
couple other very, very well known
architects that were in the room,

367
00:26:41,340 --> 00:26:45,180
and for two days they looked at
all those submissions and said,

368
00:26:45,180 --> 00:26:47,700
architecture is going to hell in
a handbasket. It's awful.

369
00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:49,590
It's everything's terrible.
And then they pick ten,

370
00:26:49,950 --> 00:26:55,890
which is kind of what they did.
And, and so I said, well,

371
00:26:56,010 --> 00:26:59,410
gentlemen.
Now I need you to complete this

372
00:26:59,410 --> 00:27:02,440
sentence.
We picked this building because.

373
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,290
And they said, well,
why would we do that?

374
00:27:05,860 --> 00:27:09,070
I said, well,
we're trying to educate the public.

375
00:27:10,060 --> 00:27:15,020
About architecture. Oh, okay.
And so I got these very high

376
00:27:15,020 --> 00:27:20,900
falutin things and came back and
had to write these jury comments

377
00:27:20,900 --> 00:27:24,860
about colliding geometries and,
you know, this kind of thing.

378
00:27:24,860 --> 00:27:28,640
But I but I loved it.
And I got to meet just these

379
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,840
amazing architects who were,
you know, who I learned a lot from.

380
00:27:33,230 --> 00:27:41,430
And I learned a lot about business
because. This the association?

381
00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:43,800
I thought I was going to go there
and all I was going to do was

382
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:48,120
talk about great architecture and
how you make great architecture.

383
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:53,280
Well, in fact, what we were talking
about was insurance liability

384
00:27:53,610 --> 00:27:58,140
fighting with the engineers, you know, you know,

385
00:27:58,140 --> 00:28:02,730
legal practices, documents,
the business side of architecture,

386
00:28:02,730 --> 00:28:06,780
which is incredibly important.
Incredibly important.

387
00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:10,740
Yeah, well, the relationship between
the developer and the architect and

388
00:28:10,740 --> 00:28:16,830
the. And the engineer and the. Yeah.
Minor. You know, the, you know, or.

389
00:28:16,830 --> 00:28:21,900
The contractor, I mean, everything.
And it was interesting to me.

390
00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:26,400
I mean, I just I was so grateful
for the experience there and the

391
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,680
opportunity to, to meet Frank Gehry
and to meet to really learn about,

392
00:28:31,860 --> 00:28:35,430, to see architecture in a,
in a different way and to

393
00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:39,810
understand how architects work.
One of the things I did when I first

394
00:28:39,810 --> 00:28:44,670
got there was especially being in the
practice department, I would go out

395
00:28:44,670 --> 00:28:47,880
to architecture offices and say,
I want to see what's on your desk.

396
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,630
What books do you use?
What tools do you use?

397
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:58,120, you know,
how do you do what you do? Right.

398
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,960
Because I felt if we were going
to communicate.

399
00:29:02,860 --> 00:29:06,040
About the field,
about the profession. Then we.

400
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,420
Then I needed to understand what
it was, what what they did and

401
00:29:10,420 --> 00:29:15,520
what was like for them. Yeah, and I just met so many amazing

402
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,850
people and, was involved
with some of the committees,

403
00:29:18,850 --> 00:29:22,150
and we would go around the country
and look at different, you know,

404
00:29:22,150 --> 00:29:24,880
they would have meetings in
different parts of the country.

405
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,250
And we would always do these
great architectural tours.

406
00:29:27,820 --> 00:29:32,230
So the language of architecture is
a whole lot different than what

407
00:29:32,230 --> 00:29:36,730
you had for sure prior to that.
So but I had to learn another

408
00:29:36,730 --> 00:29:40,180
language. Right. There it is.
And then and then figure out how to

409
00:29:40,180 --> 00:29:46,180
translate that to different audiences
so that it would be relevant and

410
00:29:46,180 --> 00:29:52,630
clear. You were there for how long?
Five years. Okay. And then what?

411
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,310
Then I went to the National Trust
for Historic Preservation. And why?

412
00:29:58,540 --> 00:30:02,410
Well, that's an interesting.
I had been working with,

413
00:30:02,410 --> 00:30:08,830
different people over there, and, I met the a very charismatic,

414
00:30:08,860 --> 00:30:14,620, the marketing director, and, you know, we we connected

415
00:30:14,620 --> 00:30:18,370
over a bunch of things, and,
then a position opened and,

416
00:30:18,370 --> 00:30:22,870
and they offered it and I went over
and I talked to people and, and,

417
00:30:22,870 --> 00:30:29,420, historic preservation was.
Evolving itself from, you know,

418
00:30:29,420 --> 00:30:32,870
what they always used to say?
Rich dead white guys, you know,

419
00:30:32,990 --> 00:30:37,340, preserving the houses of rich,
dead white guys to really,

420
00:30:37,340 --> 00:30:44,180
looking at, our, our history,
how our history is represented.

421
00:30:44,630 --> 00:30:51,050, and so it was just a fascinating
time to, to, to be there and to

422
00:30:51,050 --> 00:30:58,490
get a different vantage on,
urbanism and, the way in and,

423
00:30:58,490 --> 00:31:01,760
and architecture from a different
vantage point and to help an

424
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:08,900
organization that was evolving,
to be to, to engage more people.

425
00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:17,480
So I, one of the things I was there,
I started there in 93, 94 or 95,

426
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:23,160
I put them on the web.
In 1994, 1995 because I said,

427
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,460
this is a this is going to be a
thing. And people do. People care?

428
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,970
At that point, the web lived in
the IT department, right?

429
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,510
And I said, it's not,
it's not it's not a IT thing.

430
00:31:35,020 --> 00:31:41,890
It's a it's a communications thing.
And, and so the idea was,

431
00:31:41,890 --> 00:31:46,510
how do we engage younger people
in into historic preservation?

432
00:31:46,990 --> 00:31:50,080
How do we get more people
engaged in that? And.

433
00:31:50,820 --> 00:31:55,200
And and so,
because nobody really understood

434
00:31:55,710 --> 00:31:58,290
what this web thing was going to be,
and they thought it was a passing

435
00:31:58,290 --> 00:32:02,370
fad. Everybody left me alone.
So I got to create, you know,

436
00:32:02,370 --> 00:32:04,800
I had to hire somebody to
actually do the program.

437
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,700
I didn't know how to do any of that.
But, and so we built our, the

438
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:12,840
first site and it was focused around
how people come to preservation,

439
00:32:13,350 --> 00:32:16,710
either through home decor.
That's why they have

440
00:32:16,710 --> 00:32:20,160
Williamsburg blue on their walls
in their living room.

441
00:32:20,430 --> 00:32:23,640
You know, people like that
aesthetic or through travel.

442
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,230
That's how people often get
exposed to historic preservation.

443
00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:34,020
And, and so those were kind of
two entry points that that wasn't the

444
00:32:34,020 --> 00:32:38,400
only thing that we had on the site.
But, and it was really it

445
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:44,310
was really fun. And we.
The other thing, we had just started

446
00:32:44,370 --> 00:32:48,000
a partnership with the History
Channel, which was fledgling.

447
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,460
At that time,
they were just beginning.

448
00:32:50,460 --> 00:32:56,760
And, we had a program that long, predated me, but called the 11

449
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:01,850
Most Endangered Historic Places.
And the History Channel did a

450
00:33:01,850 --> 00:33:09,320
documentary every year about what was
on that, what was on that list?

451
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:15,200
And, one of the things I was
really proud of is that I had read

452
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,350
somewhere there was I don't know if,
you know, I'm really dating myself,

453
00:33:18,350 --> 00:33:23,900
but there was a show, er,
on NBC and Noah Wiley, the young

454
00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:27,320
doctor, was like the heartthrob.
And I happened to read in,

455
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,350
of all places, people magazine
that he was a history buff.

456
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,330, so I said, you know what?
I bet nobody ever asks him to do

457
00:33:35,330 --> 00:33:39,700
anything serious.
So I reached out through his agent

458
00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:43,810
and said, we have this documentary
and I know your Civil War buff

459
00:33:43,810 --> 00:33:47,110
we have. We actually have.
I think we had a,

460
00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:50,650
southern site I'm trying to remember.
I don't remember exactly from

461
00:33:50,650 --> 00:33:54,880
that particular year.
Would would he agree to narrate it?

462
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,000
And he did.
Cool and it was exciting to fly

463
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,030
out to LA.
And he he was he was fantastic.

464
00:34:03,030 --> 00:34:06,990
He was so gracious.
Showed up with three outfits. Right.

465
00:34:06,990 --> 00:34:09,810
He wasn't sure what kind of look
we wanted, you know,

466
00:34:09,810 --> 00:34:15,450
was such a pro and, and,
and and that was, you know,

467
00:34:15,450 --> 00:34:19,210
I always tried to think about.
How could we make this more

468
00:34:19,210 --> 00:34:23,230
accessible?
How can we bring this to more people?

469
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,070
And, that was certainly one
way we did that.

470
00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:33,510
So you were there for how long?
Five years. Another five.

471
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,570
So you were.
You go to a from an association

472
00:34:37,570 --> 00:34:40,900
and to a nonprofit.
I don't know what they are.

473
00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:42,610
I guess they.
Just they're a membership

474
00:34:42,610 --> 00:34:46,000
organization.
I actually thought of them,

475
00:34:47,350 --> 00:34:51,490
you know, as in a way,
as an association, but they're not

476
00:34:51,490 --> 00:34:56,380
quite like a most associations,
but they they are nonprofit.

477
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,980, and they had kind of a they had
a membership and it was a public

478
00:34:59,980 --> 00:35:04,240
membership of people who cared
about preserving our history and

479
00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:09,250
preserving our buildings and also
being relevant, making that relevant.

480
00:35:09,250 --> 00:35:12,160
And I think that was that was
important. Yeah.

481
00:35:12,460 --> 00:35:16,270
So was there were there differences
between those two entities as far

482
00:35:16,270 --> 00:35:19,510
as the way they communicated?
Obviously, you had to you did the

483
00:35:19,510 --> 00:35:23,470
internet. So that was obviously.
So that was one thing I you know,

484
00:35:23,470 --> 00:35:27,160
I think, well,
every organization has its own

485
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:32,350
personality, right? Right.
So really it's understanding the

486
00:35:32,350 --> 00:35:35,710
personality of the organization
and the audiences that they're

487
00:35:35,710 --> 00:35:41,810
trying to communicate with.
And, so, so yes, there were

488
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,750
there were differences, I think,
with, the National Trust,

489
00:35:44,750 --> 00:35:49,010
we were more public facing. Right, we had a higher,

490
00:35:49,010 --> 00:35:55,100
higher profile publicly, you know, we we we put something

491
00:35:55,100 --> 00:36:00,240
on our endangered list, in southern Maryland, there's

492
00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:07,620
a Satterlee plantation, and.
That was was interesting because

493
00:36:07,620 --> 00:36:13,140
the great grandson of the slave
owner and the great granddaughter

494
00:36:13,140 --> 00:36:17,460
of a slave were both on the board
trying to save this plantation.

495
00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:23,160
So that was another really
interesting thing, because,

496
00:36:23,250 --> 00:36:26,910
that got onto the today show in
the New York Times and, and so on.

497
00:36:26,910 --> 00:36:30,450
And, so,
so the trust was really doing some

498
00:36:30,450 --> 00:36:35,000
very interesting things. You know.
Were you the communications

499
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:39,620
director there? I was, yes, I was.
So any interface with the press?

500
00:36:39,620 --> 00:36:43,160
You were the person.
Well, I, yeah,

501
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:49,340
and I had a team, but I did some of that,

502
00:36:49,340 --> 00:36:52,610
that the team did a lot of it, too.
And,

503
00:36:53,390 --> 00:36:56,960
and it was really trying to figure
out how we frame the narrative.

504
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,620
How do we tell our story, how do we
make it relevant to people who may

505
00:37:00,620 --> 00:37:06,860
not necessarily know about us or or
think about it in the way that we do?

506
00:37:06,860 --> 00:37:11,900
And so again, there's that
translation interpretation. Sure.

507
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:18,530
Model that, that a good communicator
is and does. So then what?

508
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:28,270
So then, this is interesting
through, some, through

509
00:37:28,270 --> 00:37:32,890
some colleagues or whatever I was
introduced to, Mario Moreno,

510
00:37:33,490 --> 00:37:39,820, who, is, considered
by many to be the godfather of

511
00:37:39,820 --> 00:37:44,230
technology in this region.
And he had just launched a

512
00:37:44,230 --> 00:37:52,660
non-profit, the Moreno Institute,
right, and needed a comms director,

513
00:37:52,660 --> 00:37:59,590
and, I, I met him, and,
he mentioned that he was looking for

514
00:37:59,590 --> 00:38:05,080
somebody, and I went on his website,
and I was like, wow, this is so cool.

515
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:11,110
I want to be part of this, and, so I ended up.

516
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,710
Interviewing with him on the on
the phone.

517
00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:21,290
And then,
he did everything by email, right?

518
00:38:21,380 --> 00:38:25,880, he he was happy in Cleveland at
that point and half here and then,

519
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,510, interviewed with the the team,

520
00:38:29,510 --> 00:38:33,620
and the next thing I knew, I was
offered a job, and I said, this is

521
00:38:33,620 --> 00:38:37,760
really interesting what he's doing.
I'm going to I want to I want to

522
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,600
be part of this.
So I was his communications director

523
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:48,230
for two years before I went out on
my own. And that was, amazing.

524
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:52,910
I learned about a whole other world,
the technology world, which I had

525
00:38:52,910 --> 00:38:59,790
sort of. Come to some understanding, about a little bit by getting

526
00:38:59,790 --> 00:39:03,840
involved with the internet and,
and trying to, you know,

527
00:39:04,020 --> 00:39:08,820
put the trust on the internet.
And, and I was really fascinated by.

528
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,310
The interaction of technology with,
with humans and and

529
00:39:14,310 --> 00:39:19,790
communication and, and so I learned a tremendous

530
00:39:19,790 --> 00:39:27,530
amount from Mario, and his
team just by osmosis, and.

531
00:39:28,990 --> 00:39:32,500
You know, I was around a lot of
entrepreneurs and he had started

532
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:37,750
something called net Preneur,
which was, he, he had seen

533
00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:41,620
that there were lots of people
who were starting these internet

534
00:39:41,620 --> 00:39:44,710
related businesses or businesses
that relied on the internet,

535
00:39:44,710 --> 00:39:47,050
and there was no place for them
in the business community.

536
00:39:47,050 --> 00:39:51,340
And he created this net Preneur
program where people could.

537
00:39:52,290 --> 00:39:58,610
Come together, people like Rishi
Agarwal, who founded the event.

538
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:06,710, you know, and, and so he,
he was just such a forward

539
00:40:06,710 --> 00:40:11,690
thinking person and understood, the role that technology

540
00:40:11,690 --> 00:40:16,550
could play in making business
better and making lives better.

541
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:20,000
And I, we, you know, we always joke
that Mario was on social media

542
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,910
before there were social media.
He just knew how to connect people.

543
00:40:23,030 --> 00:40:24,890
Yeah.
And, so that was an,

544
00:40:25,070 --> 00:40:27,740
you know, incredible experience.
And but I was around all these

545
00:40:27,740 --> 00:40:33,290
entrepreneurs and I said,
you know what? Wow. I could do this.

546
00:40:33,620 --> 00:40:37,310
I can start business. Okay.
I'm going to do it.

547
00:40:37,310 --> 00:40:41,920
And so I started Ranger Group.
And haven't looked back.

548
00:40:41,950 --> 00:40:46,120
Wished I had done it ten years ago.
Try to keep. You. He did.

549
00:40:46,330 --> 00:40:50,830
Oh, he did. In fact.
So the story is that I went to

550
00:40:50,830 --> 00:40:54,550
Mario and I said.
You know, I had two little kids,

551
00:40:54,550 --> 00:40:58,090
and I was commuting from Rockville
to Reston and cross that bridge.

552
00:40:58,090 --> 00:41:03,310
Every day was killing me. Yeah.
And. And so.

553
00:41:04,220 --> 00:41:08,750
And, you know, my, I remember
I was like, two hours late,

554
00:41:08,750 --> 00:41:11,630
one time to pick my daughter up
from daycare, and she was crying,

555
00:41:11,630 --> 00:41:13,940
and I was paying $5 a minute.
And, you know, I said,

556
00:41:13,940 --> 00:41:16,310
I just can't do this, right.
So I went to Mario and I said,

557
00:41:16,310 --> 00:41:19,580
look, I got to do something else.
I don't know what it is.

558
00:41:20,180 --> 00:41:23,570
You know, I but I'm going to
talk to a lot of people and,

559
00:41:23,570 --> 00:41:27,110
you know, everybody,
and I don't want to surprise you.

560
00:41:27,620 --> 00:41:30,680, and I don't want you to hear
that I'm out there, you know,

561
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,320
talking to people, but.
And he says, well, no, no, no,

562
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:34,940
we can make it work.
What do you want to do?

563
00:41:34,940 --> 00:41:40,550
And no, I gotta I gotta do this.
So, I went out and I talked to a

564
00:41:40,550 --> 00:41:43,700
lot of people, and I was talking
to this one guy like, I don't know

565
00:41:43,700 --> 00:41:46,730
what to do next. I'm not sure.
I don't know what to do.

566
00:41:46,970 --> 00:41:49,340
And then under my breath,
I said something like, sometimes I

567
00:41:49,340 --> 00:41:52,820
think about hanging out a shingle.
And he said, well, why don't you?

568
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,550
And I said, well,
I don't know enough and I never I,

569
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:59,790
you know, I never worked in an
agency and I had all these reasons.

570
00:41:59,940 --> 00:42:03,420
And he looked at me, this guy,
and he said, when do you think

571
00:42:03,420 --> 00:42:07,640
you would know enough?
And it was like, oh,

572
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,460
I could have had a V8.
Yep, that's what I'm going to do.

573
00:42:10,460 --> 00:42:12,980
So I went back to Mario and I said,
Mario, I know what I'm going to do.

574
00:42:13,010 --> 00:42:15,440
He said, what is it?
I'm going to hang out a shingle.

575
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,580
And he said, great, I will be your
first client. Oh that's great.

576
00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:25,100
And I'll keep you as busy or not
as you want to be.

577
00:42:25,100 --> 00:42:28,970
And so with that,
I really had the confidence to

578
00:42:29,390 --> 00:42:32,990
start start the business.
I mean, I was going to do it anyway,

579
00:42:32,990 --> 00:42:37,040
but that was that was tremendous.
Yeah.

580
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,130
And so I, you know,
and I continued to consult with him.

581
00:42:40,130 --> 00:42:45,080
And then when he started Venture
Philanthropy Partners for a you know,

582
00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:49,070
I did off and on work with Venture
Philanthropy Partners for ten years.

583
00:42:49,670 --> 00:42:53,030
So, you know,
with content and just some strategy

584
00:42:53,030 --> 00:42:57,470
and various communications work.
So that was really great.

585
00:42:57,470 --> 00:43:01,550
And Mari's been, you know,
a real mentor of mine.

586
00:43:01,550 --> 00:43:04,370
I mean,
I just learned so much from him,

587
00:43:04,370 --> 00:43:11,580
and he's very, very. Gracious.
He's obviously a very effective

588
00:43:11,580 --> 00:43:15,240
communicator himself. Yeah.
Say yeah. Yeah, yeah.

589
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:21,510
But I had to learn, you know,
he so he, coming out of,

590
00:43:21,510 --> 00:43:26,740
being a computer.
Person thinks differently than I do.

591
00:43:27,340 --> 00:43:29,440
So this is a story I always tell
people.

592
00:43:30,070 --> 00:43:33,310, you know, I'd kind of gotten
there. I was there about a month.

593
00:43:33,310 --> 00:43:35,080
He said,
I need a communications plan.

594
00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:39,610
So I wrote a communications plan.
The way that I was used to

595
00:43:39,610 --> 00:43:41,770
writing a communications plan
had a lot of words.

596
00:43:42,670 --> 00:43:45,250
So I present this communications
plan.

597
00:43:45,250 --> 00:43:49,990
I feel good about it, he says,
I hate this. And I said, you hate it.

598
00:43:50,380 --> 00:43:56,380
He said, no, I hate this. You do it.
I go right, just like, oh,

599
00:43:56,380 --> 00:43:59,020
I'm so dejected.
And one of the people in his office

600
00:43:59,020 --> 00:44:07,180
said. Mario is a chart guy.
So I went back and I just

601
00:44:07,180 --> 00:44:12,100
reconfigured it and put it into
a form that was going to be more

602
00:44:12,100 --> 00:44:16,600
accessible to him, and he liked it.
You showed him rush and he was like,

603
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,180
looking for English, right?
Right, right.

604
00:44:19,180 --> 00:44:21,910
So that was a that was a really
valuable lesson.

605
00:44:21,910 --> 00:44:24,220
And I've learned that many,
many times over.

606
00:44:24,370 --> 00:44:28,660
You know, I was telling a story
about something I did for Asia.

607
00:44:28,810 --> 00:44:34,690, I had done this report for one of
the committee, the committees, and I,

608
00:44:34,900 --> 00:44:40,060, gave it to the committee chair,
and he said, I hate it again.

609
00:44:40,060 --> 00:44:42,790
And I said, well,
you think you hate it, but what?

610
00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:45,940
Tell me why you think you hate it.
And he said, I don't like the cover.

611
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,640
I said there is no cover.
It says draft.

612
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:54,530
But what it taught me was this was
a highly visual person, right?

613
00:44:54,530 --> 00:44:59,540
Again, giving a highly visual
person a whole lot of words that

614
00:44:59,540 --> 00:45:03,710
weren't broken up and didn't have
any kind of visual way to narrate

615
00:45:03,710 --> 00:45:08,300
through them was frustrating.
So those were really,

616
00:45:08,300 --> 00:45:10,640
really valuable.
So the lesson you learned there

617
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,370
was no your audience, right?
No, your audience.

618
00:45:13,370 --> 00:45:18,320
But it's more than you know.
It's know how they access the world.

619
00:45:18,530 --> 00:45:22,340
Okay. Right.
You can know your people sometimes

620
00:45:22,340 --> 00:45:25,220
think, well, I know, I know,
this is what they think or this is,

621
00:45:25,220 --> 00:45:29,810
but you have to understand how they
access information, how they process,

622
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,070, as much as other things that you
need to know about your audience.

623
00:45:34,070 --> 00:45:36,020
You know, you can talk about
buyer personas and you can talk

624
00:45:36,020 --> 00:45:40,130
about all those things.
But but how do they best?

625
00:45:41,300 --> 00:45:46,640
Access information and and the things
that they are interested in. Okay.

626
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:52,730
I'm going to pivot now. Well you do.
Some real estate things. Yep.

627
00:45:52,730 --> 00:45:56,330
So I look at the the real estate
commercial real estate industry

628
00:45:56,330 --> 00:46:01,160
has built on three pillars.
First is communication which is

629
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,790
your specialty. Two is analytics.
And the financial part.

630
00:46:05,150 --> 00:46:10,250
And three is design and function.
Communication is the baseline

631
00:46:10,250 --> 00:46:12,650
among them.
Of course the concepts of

632
00:46:12,650 --> 00:46:16,640
presentation, negotiation,
networking, marketing,

633
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,910
sales and collaboration are all
critical skills.

634
00:46:20,540 --> 00:46:25,010
In your book Prism of Value, you
look at communicating through this

635
00:46:25,010 --> 00:46:30,500
prism through this prism of value.
Elaborate on that concept in context

636
00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:34,610
with the concepts I listed above,
and any others you believe are

637
00:46:34,610 --> 00:46:40,840
critical in our industry.
So most people communicate

638
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,820
through a prism of me. Right.
I have something I want to tell you.

639
00:46:46,470 --> 00:46:50,670, I have information for you.
I am wonderful,

640
00:46:50,670 --> 00:46:55,290
and you should hire me, and,

641
00:46:55,500 --> 00:47:01,000
I'm I'm worth I'm I'm I'm worth it.
Okay. That's all about me.

642
00:47:02,010 --> 00:47:10,350
It's not about you and me. Right.
So tell me how all of those things

643
00:47:10,350 --> 00:47:14,610
that you just described. What?
You know, we know what's in it for

644
00:47:14,610 --> 00:47:21,510
me. What will be different for me.
So I always say prism takes

645
00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:26,730
white light, refracts it and
out comes Technicolor, right?

646
00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:32,470
The white light is all the things
that we think. People should not.

647
00:47:34,100 --> 00:47:37,970, sometimes it's, you know,
it's the price.

648
00:47:38,540 --> 00:47:42,260, it's the, you know,
the location, right?

649
00:47:42,290 --> 00:47:46,550
It's, you know,
if we're trying to sell ourselves,

650
00:47:46,550 --> 00:47:51,110
it's all the awards we've won, all of the,

651
00:47:51,110 --> 00:47:55,130
people we've worked with, right?
That's all. That's all table stakes.

652
00:47:56,020 --> 00:48:00,490
But you have to take that information
and refract it to a prism of value,

653
00:48:00,490 --> 00:48:04,720
which says, what about all those
things that I want you to know?

654
00:48:05,590 --> 00:48:10,850
How is that?
Making your life better.

655
00:48:11,630 --> 00:48:16,340, fulfilling some sort of
aspiration or yearning that you have.

656
00:48:16,910 --> 00:48:21,560
And conversely, how is that taking
away some sort of frustration?

657
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:26,630
Pain? Concern? Worry? Right.
There are two sides of the

658
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:31,820
messaging coin.
One is appealing to our our our wants

659
00:48:31,820 --> 00:48:37,340
and aspirations and is positive.
The other is about protecting us

660
00:48:37,340 --> 00:48:41,930
from ourselves and our fears.
And you have to know which side

661
00:48:41,930 --> 00:48:45,890
of that coin to flip right at
any given time.

662
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,700
And refract all the other stuff that
you want to tell through that prism.

663
00:48:52,150 --> 00:48:56,350
That's when you can be effective,
when you understand what are the

664
00:48:56,350 --> 00:49:02,360
real emotional drivers.
Behind what people say they want.

665
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,660
Yes. I always quote this.
There's a there was a very

666
00:49:05,660 --> 00:49:08,960
well-known professor of marketing
at Harvard named Ted Levitt.

667
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:10,970
He used to say,
when people buy a drill.

668
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,160
They don't really want the drill.
They want the whole.

669
00:49:16,250 --> 00:49:19,820
Because they want to hang a picture.
They want to hang their diplomas.

670
00:49:19,820 --> 00:49:25,730
They want to make a baby gate
safe for their child. Right?

671
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:30,110
And it's the same thing in in in
business. I want a building.

672
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,130
You know, maybe I need office space,
but why do I want office space?

673
00:49:35,030 --> 00:49:38,000
Right. What will that I want?
I want to bring a team together.

674
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,160
I want to have a place I can
show clients.

675
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,280
I want to have a place we can work
together, where we can collab. What?

676
00:49:43,310 --> 00:49:47,840
What is it actually about that place?
That we really want.

677
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:52,720
We don't want desks and chairs.
Necessarily, you know,

678
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:56,510
we don't want, you know.
When we used to talk about the

679
00:49:56,510 --> 00:49:58,760
corner office. What?
What is it about the corner office?

680
00:49:58,790 --> 00:50:02,030
It's about status.
I've made it right.

681
00:50:02,030 --> 00:50:06,970
So it's understanding that.
And then communicating.

682
00:50:07,690 --> 00:50:12,550
To to, hit on those
emotional points for people.

683
00:50:14,050 --> 00:50:18,910
So what that tells me is you've got
to be able to tell a good story.

684
00:50:19,570 --> 00:50:23,820
Is that correct? Sure. For sure.
You have to be able to tell us.

685
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:30,420
Yeah, but you have to tell a story,
and it has to be authentic.

686
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:37,680
And it has to be meaningful and
somehow illustrative.

687
00:50:38,540 --> 00:50:45,250
Of some point you're trying to make.
I, you know, I kind of get,

688
00:50:45,250 --> 00:50:47,830
frustrated with this sometimes.
So everybody's gotten on the

689
00:50:47,830 --> 00:50:51,460
storytelling bandwagon.
Oh, we just have to tell stories.

690
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,500
Yes, I believe in stories.
I've built my whole professional

691
00:50:56,500 --> 00:51:00,790
life on storytelling.
I have to tell stories appropriately

692
00:51:01,150 --> 00:51:05,290
and at the right time. Right.
Sometimes the story is appropriate,

693
00:51:05,290 --> 00:51:10,630
sometimes it's not.
And it's understanding how to

694
00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:14,850
use story.
As a vehicle to achieve

695
00:51:14,850 --> 00:51:19,690
understanding or connection.
So when do you know when and

696
00:51:19,690 --> 00:51:23,200
when not to tell a story?
And that. And at what? What?

697
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:28,180
What's the trigger for that?
So for me and I and I, I often don't

698
00:51:28,180 --> 00:51:35,530
think about it. I just do this.
But, sometimes when someone is.

699
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,470
Well, I always like to tell a
story at the beginning.

700
00:51:39,250 --> 00:51:44,290
Of a conversation because that can
grab someone's attention if it's the

701
00:51:44,290 --> 00:51:48,680
right story and it's not too long.
Right.

702
00:51:51,590 --> 00:51:57,020
Sometimes when people,
when you're trying to express a

703
00:51:57,020 --> 00:51:59,930
concept and you can see that
there's confusion.

704
00:51:59,930 --> 00:52:01,550
Well,
let me tell you a story about that.

705
00:52:02,730 --> 00:52:05,550
Let me tell you how that or let
me show you how that might work.

706
00:52:05,550 --> 00:52:11,820
So, for example, when we go
into make a pitch to a new client.

707
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,690, and I remember this.
I it was real estate client.

708
00:52:17,290 --> 00:52:24,520
And, we go I get to the,
the the office and I'm sitting,

709
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,610
waiting to go in and out comes
the previous firm.

710
00:52:27,610 --> 00:52:30,910
They have about 20 people and they've
got boards and they've got all this

711
00:52:30,910 --> 00:52:35,020
stuff. And I just am walking in.
It's me. Right.

712
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,690
And they said, what do you want
to set up your PowerPoint?

713
00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:39,490
I said, no,
I this PowerPoint free zone,

714
00:52:39,490 --> 00:52:43,600
we're going to have a conversation.
And they said, well,

715
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:44,920
tell us about your firm.
And I said, well,

716
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:46,720
I'm going to tell you about my firm.
But first I'm going to tell you

717
00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:49,060
what I know about you.
Would you like to hear I talked

718
00:52:49,060 --> 00:52:53,110
to about five other people,
to learn a little bit about you.

719
00:52:53,110 --> 00:52:55,450
Would you like to know what they
said.

720
00:52:55,540 --> 00:53:00,190
Talk to a developer and architect.
You know about your firm. Oh yes.

721
00:53:01,650 --> 00:53:05,340
So then I tell them what they said,
and I said, so what I take away

722
00:53:05,340 --> 00:53:08,190
from just those five interviews
is that you have a gap.

723
00:53:09,310 --> 00:53:12,370
In the way you communicate.
Now I'm going to tell you about

724
00:53:12,370 --> 00:53:14,260
my firm and how we're going to
help you close that gap.

725
00:53:15,090 --> 00:53:20,430
And we won the business. Right.
And I said, I have a team.

726
00:53:20,940 --> 00:53:24,180
You know, this was presume well,
zoom existed,

727
00:53:24,180 --> 00:53:27,960
but people weren't using it.
And, and I said, I'm happy to

728
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,290
have you meet the team and see who's
going to be working on the project.

729
00:53:32,070 --> 00:53:34,740, and they said, oh, we'll get back
to you in, you know, a few days.

730
00:53:34,740 --> 00:53:41,790
And they called me an hour later. So.
And that was because I used the

731
00:53:41,790 --> 00:53:45,570
stories that other people had
told about them.

732
00:53:46,630 --> 00:53:51,760
And it was about them, not about me.
I what I was trying to do is say,

733
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:56,680
let me show you, let me know,
tell you what I'm hearing out there.

734
00:53:56,770 --> 00:53:59,890
We'd need to know more.
But this is how I'm going to

735
00:53:59,890 --> 00:54:03,550
connect with you. You have a gap.
I'm going to help you bridge

736
00:54:03,550 --> 00:54:08,280
that gap. Interesting.
Well, I was going to ask this

737
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,680
question later,
but I'm I'm going to zoom ahead

738
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:17,920
a little bit. Sure. So, in our initial conversation,

739
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,430
you said that several of your
clients have been guests of mine

740
00:54:21,730 --> 00:54:26,290
on this podcast and and called
you before accepting my

741
00:54:26,290 --> 00:54:31,000
invitation to be interviewed, urged them to participate,

742
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:35,080
and I really appreciate that support.
And I thank you for that.

743
00:54:35,830 --> 00:54:38,830, why did you think it was
good for them to participate?

744
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:43,880
And was it to enhance their brand
or to help them build confidence

745
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:48,220
in an interview setting? Both.
Absolutely both.

746
00:54:48,220 --> 00:54:54,000
I said first and foremost.
It's exposure and you're in

747
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,690
great company.
In terms of who else is

748
00:54:57,690 --> 00:55:01,200
participating.
So there's social proof there. Okay.

749
00:55:01,650 --> 00:55:07,410
So you're you're in with your peers.
And number two, it's good.

750
00:55:07,410 --> 00:55:11,830
It's always good.
To practice telling your story.

751
00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:19,450
To different kinds of audiences.
So it's a win win. That's great.

752
00:55:19,660 --> 00:55:22,480
Well, I appreciate that.
And it's one of the reasons why

753
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,920
I did it.
In the first place is to tell

754
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,700
the story of the of this,
of this market and this industry.

755
00:55:30,380 --> 00:55:35,090
Through as many eyes as I could,
and also different disciplines

756
00:55:35,090 --> 00:55:38,390
as I as I could as well.
And so you're the first

757
00:55:38,390 --> 00:55:41,030
communications professional I've
had on.

758
00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:45,200
But you know, and I'm, you know,
I'm trying to talk to as many

759
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,560
people in different disciplines
that I can in the industry.

760
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,050
And it's interesting,
when I started in this business,

761
00:55:51,050 --> 00:55:55,670
there were very few disciplines
addressing real estate, for sure.

762
00:55:55,700 --> 00:56:02,680
Now it seems like just about every.
Thing that humans do touch this

763
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,230
industry now.
So it's, you know,

764
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:09,430
and why that is, I don't know,
but it just seems like there's more

765
00:56:09,430 --> 00:56:14,200
and more input in this industry.
Well, I think everything humans

766
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:18,540
did always touch this industry.
It's just the industry didn't

767
00:56:18,540 --> 00:56:22,710
know it and didn't understand it.
No, I really believe that.

768
00:56:22,950 --> 00:56:29,440, I believe that.
One of the challenges that the real

769
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:35,260
estate development community and, and I mean that in the

770
00:56:35,260 --> 00:56:40,030
broadest sense of the term,
has had is that they have

771
00:56:40,030 --> 00:56:48,140
communicated about the objects.
And not enough about what the

772
00:56:48,140 --> 00:56:53,800
objects mean.
And the impact those objects have.

773
00:56:54,970 --> 00:56:59,890
On human health and life,
well-being, satisfaction,

774
00:56:59,890 --> 00:57:08,320
productivity, performance, etc.. So, and that was something I,

775
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:13,210
I again,
having been a reporter and having.

776
00:57:14,240 --> 00:57:19,250, listen to lots of people and and
and understanding what makes a good

777
00:57:19,250 --> 00:57:25,760
feature or what's newsworthy. Right.
It's, you know,

778
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:30,020
in obviously in business press,
you know, you sign a big lease

779
00:57:30,020 --> 00:57:32,960
that's newsworthy, okay.
But it's newsworthy for a couple

780
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:35,720
of reasons.
Doesn't mean that the company that

781
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:39,110
signed the lease is doing something
different in their business

782
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,100
because they took more space,
so they're growing.

783
00:57:43,100 --> 00:57:47,450
So what does that mean? Right.
Does it mean that they located

784
00:57:47,450 --> 00:57:52,310
in a part of the city that where
business typically didn't locate?

785
00:57:52,580 --> 00:57:57,260
So what does that tell you about
the dynamics of our city?

786
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:05,360
And tastes and you know, and growth.
So that's the part that's always

787
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:06,950
been.
And finally I think people have

788
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:11,330
caught on that.
So and actually it's made me

789
00:58:11,330 --> 00:58:15,440
think something when I was a
metro reporter at the post.

790
00:58:16,730 --> 00:58:19,490
There was a feature called Where
We Live, and it was in the real

791
00:58:19,490 --> 00:58:23,600
estate section. Sure.
And I remember the I as Metro

792
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:27,920
reports, we had to rotate once a
month and and do one of these. Right.

793
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,920
And I remember talking to the real
estate editor and he said, do you

794
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:33,950
know anything about real estate?
No, I don't think about real estate

795
00:58:33,980 --> 00:58:35,810
because, well, I don't know if
you can be able to do this story.

796
00:58:35,810 --> 00:58:39,440
I said, well, what is it that you
want me to go to a neighborhood?

797
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:42,050
You want me to find out about
why people like living in the

798
00:58:42,050 --> 00:58:44,990
neighborhood and then get some,
some factual information about

799
00:58:44,990 --> 00:58:47,540
the neighborhood.
I think I can do that. Right.

800
00:58:47,540 --> 00:58:51,140
But even, you know,
so even they were looking at it

801
00:58:51,140 --> 00:58:54,110
as a pure business story.
And this was a feature story about

802
00:58:54,110 --> 00:58:57,890
what makes a neighborhood tick and
why you might want to live there.

803
00:58:59,140 --> 00:59:02,740
And what was the history of this
neighborhood and who were the

804
00:59:02,740 --> 00:59:07,540
people living in the neighborhood?
So I think that the industry didn't

805
00:59:07,540 --> 00:59:13,170
really know how to talk about itself.
And talked about its,

806
00:59:13,170 --> 00:59:18,760
features versus its benefits.
So you've seen a big change then?

807
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,450
Yeah for sure.
In communication in our industry.

808
00:59:22,900 --> 00:59:26,920
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
So you started your firm because you

809
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:30,310
didn't see any communication advisory
firms that offered the services

810
00:59:30,310 --> 00:59:34,000
you believed your clients deserve.
Why don't you elaborate on that

811
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,330
a little bit, please? Well, it.
Wasn't that that I was offering

812
00:59:37,330 --> 00:59:39,760
any different services.
It was how I was going to

813
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:44,950
deliver them. Okay. And.
And that was important to me.

814
00:59:45,580 --> 00:59:51,100, what was important to me was one,
I had three criteria for how I

815
00:59:51,100 --> 00:59:53,800
would take on a new client.
I still follow it.

816
00:59:54,100 --> 00:59:58,850
One do they have a really interesting
problem? And that I could solve.

817
00:59:59,830 --> 01:00:02,980
Two. Are they jerks?
Because I'm not working for jerks.

818
01:00:03,430 --> 01:00:06,730
And three. Can they.
Can they pay me? Right?

819
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:12,370, but what I found was that, I wanted to really get in

820
01:00:12,370 --> 01:00:16,990
deep with my clients to really
understand who they were so that I

821
01:00:16,990 --> 01:00:22,120
could help them tell their story.
And I didn't want to provide cookie

822
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:26,800
cutter solutions that worked for,
you know, three clients before

823
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,320
or be so focused on.
Well,

824
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,720
we got we can get you this media hit.
Well,

825
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:34,750
I'm not sure that that media hits
even the right place for you to be.

826
01:00:35,450 --> 01:00:37,730
Because I don't know that your
audiences are actually even

827
01:00:37,730 --> 01:00:42,580
reading that.
So let's talk about what your

828
01:00:42,730 --> 01:00:45,310
company is about or your
organization is about.

829
01:00:46,260 --> 01:00:49,170
And maybe you shouldn't even be
doing media relations.

830
01:00:49,170 --> 01:00:51,690
Maybe you should be doing
something else, right.

831
01:00:52,260 --> 01:00:55,500, I remember one person said they
wanted a big media relations program,

832
01:00:55,500 --> 01:00:59,520
and when they explained to me what
they wanted, why they wanted, I said,

833
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:04,560
all you need to do is write a letter.
You don't need, you know, the media

834
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,460
would be inappropriate. For this.
And it's it's not going to get

835
01:01:08,460 --> 01:01:13,050
you where you want to go.
So it, so for me,

836
01:01:13,050 --> 01:01:17,220
it was about finding people who, I was aligned with.

837
01:01:17,220 --> 01:01:20,670
It was also doing what's right
for the client.

838
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,000
Even if it meant that we had to say,
you know what?

839
01:01:26,190 --> 01:01:28,260, you shouldn't really be
paying us anymore.

840
01:01:29,110 --> 01:01:34,510
Because you're not ready for this or, we're not the right fit for

841
01:01:34,510 --> 01:01:38,320
you to be able to.
But because because it was really in

842
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,320
the best interest of the client,
we're actually what you need is

843
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:46,240
really more on a marketing side
than you need comms. Right.

844
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:50,290
And let me help you find somebody.
There you go. Right. That was.

845
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:56,290
That was really what I wanted,
and I wanted to be able to,

846
01:01:56,290 --> 01:02:01,390
have the very best people who
had experience, who had been

847
01:02:01,390 --> 01:02:05,260
around the block a little bit.
And, and, as I always say,

848
01:02:05,260 --> 01:02:07,900
you know, we've seen the movie,
we know all the endings.

849
01:02:08,380 --> 01:02:10,960, we can help you write the
right ending for you,

850
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:15,370
for your for your story, and it was important just to

851
01:02:15,370 --> 01:02:19,900
be a partner, and and we really
care about what we do.

852
01:02:20,530 --> 01:02:23,530
You know, I'm not doing this.
I mean, like, to make a good living,

853
01:02:23,530 --> 01:02:25,780
but I'm not doing it because I
want to make it.

854
01:02:25,810 --> 01:02:28,720
You know, I have to build this
big enterprise. It's.

855
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:32,110
I want to be able to do the work,
do it in the way that we want to

856
01:02:32,110 --> 01:02:36,850
do it, and, and really help
advance organizations.

857
01:02:37,300 --> 01:02:43,500
And I want to leave them better than
how I found them. That's great. Yeah.

858
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:47,520
So since you've written a book,
you had to do a lot of research

859
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:51,930
on understanding a lot of the
elements of communications.

860
01:02:52,470 --> 01:02:57,150
So I'm now reading another book
called the Art of explanation by a

861
01:02:57,150 --> 01:03:03,940
fellow by the name of Ross Atkins.
He's a British BBC producer and

862
01:03:03,940 --> 01:03:07,270
he describes the anatomy of a
good explanation,

863
01:03:07,660 --> 01:03:11,380
including the following concepts.
I'm just going to list them and then,

864
01:03:12,100 --> 01:03:15,250, because I know you already have
them and hopefully giving some

865
01:03:15,250 --> 01:03:20,500
thought to it. First is simplicity.
Second is essential detail.

866
01:03:20,860 --> 01:03:25,360
Third is complexity.
Fourth is efficiency.

867
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:31,780
Fifth is precision.
Sixth is constant context. Six.

868
01:03:31,780 --> 01:03:36,010
Seventh is no distractions.
Eight is engaging.

869
01:03:36,490 --> 01:03:40,840
Nine is useful,
and ten is clarity of purpose.

870
01:03:41,110 --> 01:03:46,090
Perhaps you discuss these ideas in
context of my listening audience

871
01:03:46,090 --> 01:03:51,730
with an example or two. Maybe.
So first of all, ten is a lot.

872
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:55,510
I know right.
And I would actually start with the

873
01:03:55,510 --> 01:04:02,200
last one. Okay. Clarity of purpose, because if you don't understand.

874
01:04:03,260 --> 01:04:06,950
Why you're communicating and why
anybody else would want to hear

875
01:04:06,950 --> 01:04:10,790
what you're saying.
The rest of it really doesn't matter.

876
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:15,080
There you are.
So I would start with that. Okay.

877
01:04:15,530 --> 01:04:20,690, and then once you understand your
why, then you have to understand.

878
01:04:20,690 --> 01:04:23,480
And this wasn't on there.
Or maybe it was,

879
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:28,130
but maybe in a different way.
It's about your message.

880
01:04:29,660 --> 01:04:35,900
So so I would say clarity of purpose
and then message and framing. Right.

881
01:04:36,830 --> 01:04:40,460, and that also assumes that you
understand who you're talking to.

882
01:04:41,620 --> 01:04:45,190
Because I always say this.
You can have Shakespeare write

883
01:04:45,190 --> 01:04:49,690
your speech and you could have Da
Vinci illustrate the PowerPoint.

884
01:04:51,130 --> 01:04:54,700
And if it's not resonating,
it doesn't matter.

885
01:04:55,950 --> 01:04:59,580
Right, because people spend a
lot of time and money on the

886
01:04:59,580 --> 01:05:03,270
mechanics of these things.
Without getting that first part

887
01:05:03,270 --> 01:05:04,950
right,
you have to have clarity of purpose.

888
01:05:04,950 --> 01:05:10,620
You have to have a message that will
resonate with the audience then.

889
01:05:11,350 --> 01:05:17,410
Simplicity is absolutely key.
When you confuse people.

890
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:22,790, you lose them.
They they just they just can't

891
01:05:22,790 --> 01:05:29,170
because our brains are trying to.
Make simplicity out of complexity.

892
01:05:29,790 --> 01:05:34,060
So.
Complexity is fine if you can

893
01:05:34,060 --> 01:05:39,540
explain it in a simple way, and so I would say.

894
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:45,630
That's tied to good messaging is
that you can explain it in a way

895
01:05:45,780 --> 01:05:50,840
that is memorable.
And and easy to understand.

896
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:55,160
So that means using the right
language, using words.

897
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:58,880
And remember too, that certain
words are triggering words.

898
01:05:59,210 --> 01:06:03,710
So they may seem innocuous to you,
but you use a certain word.

899
01:06:04,340 --> 01:06:06,140
And that's all that person can
focus on.

900
01:06:06,140 --> 01:06:08,690
They haven't heard a thing he said.
Right.

901
01:06:08,690 --> 01:06:12,530
Because because they because that
brought something up for them,

902
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:18,560
you know, or that that seems to
project something about you that

903
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,680
you didn't intend.
But that's how they're hearing it.

904
01:06:22,780 --> 01:06:28,640
So that's that's important.
What else you had negotiated.

905
01:06:28,670 --> 01:06:31,790
I don't have it literally in front of
me. I probably should have, but.

906
01:06:31,910 --> 01:06:38,060. Efficiency. Precision?
Context? Yes. Context is another.

907
01:06:38,890 --> 01:06:41,350
Critically important.
And that and that ties into what

908
01:06:41,350 --> 01:06:45,850
I just said about,
triggering words, understanding,

909
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,260
putting what you're talking
about into some larger context.

910
01:06:50,470 --> 01:06:54,460
And that gets back to the why of
why of what you're talking about.

911
01:06:55,180 --> 01:07:01,660, and, and and relating what
you're doing to whatever it is that

912
01:07:01,660 --> 01:07:07,750
your audience needs to understand.
And then. Engaging. Engaging. Yes.

913
01:07:07,750 --> 01:07:14,440
And that is all about language.
And if it's an in person

914
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:17,650
presentation, it's about energy.
I always tell people,

915
01:07:17,650 --> 01:07:22,030
if you're on zoom or you're you have
to have way more energy than the

916
01:07:22,030 --> 01:07:27,660
people sitting listening to you. Yep.
So and to be engaging is also to

917
01:07:27,660 --> 01:07:31,560
be memory memorable.
So a story is one way to be

918
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:37,080
engaging open with a story. Yeah.
Funny thing happened to me today,

919
01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:41,500
right?
And then useful is another one.

920
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:45,760
And that's. Yeah.
Well useful is is also tied back, I

921
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:51,280
think to what I was saying about the
purpose and messaging is that it's,

922
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:55,390
it's beneficial to your audience.
You're, you know, I,

923
01:07:55,540 --> 01:07:59,170
I live in Annapolis and I was, walking around the Naval

924
01:07:59,170 --> 01:08:03,430
Academy and there was a sign I
saw that said No Drone Zone.

925
01:08:03,430 --> 01:08:05,530
Now, they were talking about the
drones in the air,

926
01:08:05,530 --> 01:08:08,830
but I'm going to use that in
presentation training. No droning.

927
01:08:09,370 --> 01:08:13,270
You know, you don't you don't want
to bore people. Right, right.

928
01:08:13,270 --> 01:08:18,550
Very good people. I like that. Yeah.
The boring, boring people, I mean.

929
01:08:19,710 --> 01:08:23,940
You know, even if you're making
people angry, that's okay.

930
01:08:25,350 --> 01:08:30,090
If you're making people happy,
that's okay. If you're boring people.

931
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:34,120
That's not okay because they're
not interested.

932
01:08:35,130 --> 01:08:38,550
At least when you're making people
angry, they there's an emotional

933
01:08:38,550 --> 01:08:43,150
reaction and sometimes you can work
with that. So there's certain.

934
01:08:43,150 --> 01:08:47,920
Politicians that don't bore you,
but they can make you angry. Correct.

935
01:08:48,100 --> 01:08:50,110
And so you listen to you listen
to them.

936
01:08:50,110 --> 01:08:56,410
You listen to them even if you
don't want to. Right. Right.

937
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:00,940, so the real estate industry
has many disciplines.

938
01:09:00,940 --> 01:09:04,870
The driving force is typically
the principal who owns,

939
01:09:04,870 --> 01:09:08,860
the owns and operates the property.
That person or entity interfaces

940
01:09:08,860 --> 01:09:12,400
with hundreds of people, depending
on the scale of the property.

941
01:09:12,610 --> 01:09:16,240
If the owner is a developer and
the properties and pre-development

942
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:18,910
are under construction,
there are even more interactions

943
01:09:19,420 --> 01:09:23,080
in the face of such a variety of
communication situations.

944
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:27,700
What advice do you give property
owners to keep a consistently

945
01:09:27,700 --> 01:09:32,770
optimistic and present approach
to communications, among varying

946
01:09:32,770 --> 01:09:38,870
circumstances and stressful times?
Yeah, well we're certainly in a

947
01:09:38,870 --> 01:09:45,920
stressful time now.
So you know the optimism side of

948
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:49,580
the question is interesting because
you also have to be realistic.

949
01:09:50,450 --> 01:09:54,260
That's right.
So, when you're in challenging

950
01:09:54,260 --> 01:09:59,540
times like this painting,
rosy pictures that people know

951
01:09:59,540 --> 01:10:04,360
aren't really there.
Isn't going to help, you know,

952
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:09,790
but having a strategy for how are
we going to get through this?

953
01:10:09,790 --> 01:10:14,710
How are we going to work through
that? You're thinking about that.

954
01:10:14,710 --> 01:10:20,650
Yeah. Is is is important.
And having again, it goes back to

955
01:10:20,650 --> 01:10:26,740
clarity of purpose and messaging,
having a clear sense of of the why.

956
01:10:27,980 --> 01:10:30,590
Of what we're you know what
we're doing.

957
01:10:30,590 --> 01:10:35,540
Why, what we're doing, what we're
doing, being honest about it,

958
01:10:35,540 --> 01:10:39,110
being transparent about it.
And when I say being honest and

959
01:10:39,230 --> 01:10:41,600
it doesn't mean you tell
everybody everything.

960
01:10:42,260 --> 01:10:49,060
It just means that you're you're not.
Trying to tell people something that

961
01:10:49,060 --> 01:10:56,970
they clearly. B or C is not true.
And one of the things I've seen,

962
01:10:57,120 --> 01:11:01,440
with many real estate companies,
especially when they report,

963
01:11:01,440 --> 01:11:06,360
you know, quarterly,
here's the leasing and so on.

964
01:11:07,730 --> 01:11:11,630, it's just, you know,
the numbers are the numbers.

965
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:16,120
So what sets people apart is what
am I going to do about that?

966
01:11:16,180 --> 01:11:20,710
How am I going to work through that?
Yeah, we've seen cycles like

967
01:11:20,710 --> 01:11:23,410
this may be a different cycle
than we've ever seen before.

968
01:11:23,410 --> 01:11:28,960
So what does that mean for how
are we going to deal with this?

969
01:11:29,110 --> 01:11:33,610
How are we going to manage it, and I think one of the

970
01:11:33,610 --> 01:11:38,290
things is that you have to have
that consistent message,

971
01:11:38,710 --> 01:11:42,790
and it's really important to spend
the time on your internal teams.

972
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:48,810
To help them understand how they need
to be talking about things. Right?

973
01:11:49,020 --> 01:11:52,080
And it's not just handing people
a set of talking points.

974
01:11:53,360 --> 01:12:01,290
All right? And say, memorize this, it's it's involving them in

975
01:12:01,500 --> 01:12:06,360
the solutions. Yeah.
Or or the strategy that you have

976
01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:10,560
so that they feel some ownership,
of course, of what's happening.

977
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:14,940
But people don't do that.
You know, people most people a lot

978
01:12:14,940 --> 01:12:22,460
of people don't do that, and, you know, and and and.

979
01:12:23,980 --> 01:12:29,280
And just being.
You know, honest about where

980
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:34,750
things are. Because eventually.
The truth comes out.

981
01:12:35,050 --> 01:12:38,170
Of course it does.
So if you sit there and you say

982
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:43,780
everything's red and I look and
I say, no, it's green.

983
01:12:44,860 --> 01:12:48,220
You know,
I've painted all my stuff red.

984
01:12:48,670 --> 01:12:51,490
Well, eventually the paint starts
peeling off and people see that there

985
01:12:51,490 --> 01:12:59,020
was green there. I get it. Yeah.
So leadership comes in many forms.

986
01:12:59,050 --> 01:13:02,950
Among them are.
Top down, autocratic. Laissez faire.

987
01:13:02,950 --> 01:13:08,140
Relaxed,
collaborative and present and absent.

988
01:13:08,710 --> 01:13:12,190
Perhaps there are times when each
of these approaches work best.

989
01:13:12,190 --> 01:13:16,270
How do you counsel your clients
about when to use each approach,

990
01:13:16,270 --> 01:13:19,660
and how would you suggest
implementing them contextually

991
01:13:19,660 --> 01:13:23,140
and keeping the esprit de corps
in the right frame of mind?

992
01:13:24,130 --> 01:13:28,090
Well, I don't know that ever
being absent is a good strategy.

993
01:13:28,870 --> 01:13:33,850
Okay, you may pull back,
but being absent, I would maybe just

994
01:13:33,850 --> 01:13:37,420
take that one off the table. Okay.
Of course you want to be

995
01:13:37,420 --> 01:13:42,250
collaborative and present.
I think that's.

996
01:13:43,310 --> 01:13:50,510
The healthiest, where you, ask for feedback again.

997
01:13:50,510 --> 01:13:56,090
You're making your team,
you're empowering them by engaging

998
01:13:56,090 --> 01:13:59,600
with them in that. In that way.
Now, there are times.

999
01:14:00,450 --> 01:14:04,290
Where as a leader,
you just have to make a decision.

1000
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:08,160
It may be you've done the cloud,
you've done the conversation,

1001
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:10,980
and everybody thinks you should
do a certain thing.

1002
01:14:10,980 --> 01:14:15,660
But you know in your heart or you
know that that's not feasible.

1003
01:14:15,660 --> 01:14:18,240
And sometimes you just have to
make the tough call.

1004
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:24,920
And and be autocratic.
But when you do that again

1005
01:14:25,490 --> 01:14:29,300
communicating why you're doing that. Right.

1006
01:14:29,300 --> 01:14:33,950
And and people may say but but,
but but you say I don't I hear you.

1007
01:14:35,130 --> 01:14:39,620
But this is how we're going to do it.
And and this is why we're going

1008
01:14:39,620 --> 01:14:43,310
to do it this way and I and I
and acknowledge that maybe they

1009
01:14:43,310 --> 01:14:48,340
don't like it.
But this is you know, this is a

1010
01:14:48,340 --> 01:14:51,790
and I've reached this decision and
this is what we're going to do.

1011
01:14:51,790 --> 01:14:55,750
And so so yeah,
you need to be all of those things.

1012
01:14:56,820 --> 01:14:59,700, so we've talked about
collaborative and present.

1013
01:14:59,700 --> 01:15:02,520
We talked about is it fair also
laissez faire?

1014
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:06,960
Well, sometimes, you know,
laissez faire sort of has some,

1015
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:09,600
sometimes a negative,
connotation.

1016
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:15,390
But, if you hire good people
and they know what they're doing,

1017
01:15:15,390 --> 01:15:19,500
right, and they're adults, let them
do their thing. It's almost like a.

1018
01:15:19,500 --> 01:15:22,710
Law firm, for instance,
you know. Yeah, yeah.

1019
01:15:22,830 --> 01:15:25,590
One attorney is not going to
tell another one and a partner

1020
01:15:25,590 --> 01:15:30,060
level what to do.
So they let them they come together.

1021
01:15:31,170 --> 01:15:34,580, with the common spirit.
Correct for the.

1022
01:15:34,580 --> 01:15:37,940
Bottom line of the firm,
but they otherwise let it let that

1023
01:15:37,940 --> 01:15:43,610
person do their thing. Right.
But if you have an agreement on a

1024
01:15:43,610 --> 01:15:49,850
shared vision, mission, and values,
right, that's not a message.

1025
01:15:49,850 --> 01:15:51,410
A lot of people think that's
their message.

1026
01:15:51,470 --> 01:15:54,140
A lot of people will tell me,
I have a message, okay, what is it?

1027
01:15:54,140 --> 01:15:56,630
It's my mission statement.
No, that's not your message.

1028
01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:01,550
Your mission statement tells you why
you exist, what you're here to do.

1029
01:16:01,910 --> 01:16:07,730
Your vision tells you what the world
might look like if you do that.

1030
01:16:07,910 --> 01:16:11,720
Yep. Values tell you how you do it.
And your message.

1031
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:16,160
Your messages help people understand
why they should engage with all

1032
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:23,060
of that. What's in it for them?
So, but I think if you have a,

1033
01:16:23,060 --> 01:16:28,160, in any organization,
a shared understanding of your

1034
01:16:28,160 --> 01:16:34,990
vision. And your mission.
And everybody buys into that.

1035
01:16:35,990 --> 01:16:38,420
Then you know there are going to
be disagreements.

1036
01:16:38,420 --> 01:16:41,690
There are going to be, you know,
different opinions.

1037
01:16:42,700 --> 01:16:46,390
But because you all care about
the larger vision and mission.

1038
01:16:47,500 --> 01:16:51,820
That's what's important.
I've had many meetings where where

1039
01:16:51,820 --> 01:16:56,230
there were multiple partners on
a deal, and one group wanted to

1040
01:16:56,230 --> 01:16:58,810
announce one thing and one group
wanted to do it this way.

1041
01:16:58,810 --> 01:17:01,240
And and one group,
I need to have a quote.

1042
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:03,670
You know, you press release,
you always get.

1043
01:17:03,790 --> 01:17:06,610
Everybody's got to have a quote.
No, we're not putting seven

1044
01:17:06,610 --> 01:17:09,940
quotes in there. Right.
And so I always step back and I

1045
01:17:09,940 --> 01:17:12,880
you know, they're all and I say,
and what do we think is in the

1046
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:17,740
best interest of the project, what do we think is going to be,

1047
01:17:18,250 --> 01:17:21,010,
which of these entities do we think?

1048
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:24,250, if, you know,
you were talking to the media,

1049
01:17:24,430 --> 01:17:30,850
will immediate be most responsive to.
But I always take it back to what do

1050
01:17:30,850 --> 01:17:37,150
we think is in the best interest of
the project, the deal, whatever.

1051
01:17:37,150 --> 01:17:41,050
And and I've watched people that
kind of say, oh,

1052
01:17:41,050 --> 01:17:43,780
instead of saying, no, we're not
putting your quote in there.

1053
01:17:44,910 --> 01:17:47,370
Which is what I might have done
when I was really young.

1054
01:17:48,300 --> 01:17:49,920
And, you know,
right out of journalism,

1055
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:53,160
like we're not doing seven quotes.
That's stupid. Right.

1056
01:17:53,160 --> 01:17:56,880
That's not so what what do we
think is in the best interest of

1057
01:17:56,880 --> 01:17:59,310
the project?
How might we how and then how do

1058
01:17:59,310 --> 01:18:02,970
we make sure that you all get
the recognition that you've so

1059
01:18:02,970 --> 01:18:06,000
much deserved?
But can we do it in a different way?

1060
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:14,240. Interesting. Yeah, yeah.
Okay.

1061
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:19,230
The pandemic threw a monkey
wrench in our way of life.

1062
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:23,500
Families, workplaces,
and life in general were disrupted.

1063
01:18:24,010 --> 01:18:27,130
We became a work from home zoom
communicators.

1064
01:18:27,580 --> 01:18:32,170
Rebounding from this disruption has
proved difficult for many people.

1065
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:36,730
How can the real estate industry
adapt to this new hybrid environment

1066
01:18:36,730 --> 01:18:40,210
in communicating with their
employees, clients and partners?

1067
01:18:41,750 --> 01:18:45,500
So, having been a virtual
firm before, it was a thing.

1068
01:18:46,370 --> 01:18:50,690
One of the things that I have learned
is that you have to be much more

1069
01:18:50,690 --> 01:18:55,500
intentional, much more precise.
Because you're doing

1070
01:18:55,500 --> 01:19:00,920
asynchronous communication.
So then you can't just walk down the

1071
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:07,240
hall and explain what you meant and.
A lot of people just don't want

1072
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:10,450
to talk on the phone anymore.
They won't talk on the phone.

1073
01:19:11,490 --> 01:19:16,320
So if you're not seeing them in
person, in person and you're not,

1074
01:19:16,860 --> 01:19:22,230
you know, you're doing this over
text or email. What do you do?

1075
01:19:22,890 --> 01:19:28,350
So it's very important to use your
subject lines really well and

1076
01:19:28,350 --> 01:19:31,020
communicate in the subject line.
What is it that you want?

1077
01:19:31,560 --> 01:19:35,870
Sharing this for information.
I'm sharing this because I need some.

1078
01:19:35,870 --> 01:19:39,470
I need you to respond.
There's urgency,

1079
01:19:39,470 --> 01:19:41,570
but you have to. It's.
It's what I call the Whitman's

1080
01:19:41,570 --> 01:19:44,870
sampler of communication.
If you ever know the chocolate box.

1081
01:19:44,870 --> 01:19:46,490
Right.
And you open the chocolate box,

1082
01:19:46,490 --> 01:19:50,600
and on the back of the box,
there's a, there's a roadmap of

1083
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:53,690
what's in the box. Right. Okay.
I want the caramel.

1084
01:19:53,690 --> 01:19:57,050
Oh, it's over here on the right.
I can go right to the caramel.

1085
01:19:57,050 --> 01:20:00,860
I don't need to go eat the cream.
You know, I don't have to guess.

1086
01:20:01,250 --> 01:20:04,430
In the same way,
when you're communicating in a

1087
01:20:04,580 --> 01:20:08,570
whether it's over slack or whatever,
you have to be much more precise

1088
01:20:09,020 --> 01:20:13,530
about what you want and when you
want it or need it. Interesting.

1089
01:20:13,530 --> 01:20:19,870
And you, you you. And.
You have to think about what's

1090
01:20:19,870 --> 01:20:23,440
going to grab their attention,
because we're all overwhelmed

1091
01:20:23,440 --> 01:20:28,610
with so much email.
And then when you write the email.

1092
01:20:29,950 --> 01:20:34,090
You know, you don't want large blocks
of texts. You got bullet points.

1093
01:20:34,360 --> 01:20:37,090
Get to the point.
Tell them why you are.

1094
01:20:37,810 --> 01:20:41,050
You are reaching out in this
form of communication.

1095
01:20:42,090 --> 01:20:46,380
When you need it. Why you need it, if there's background

1096
01:20:46,380 --> 01:20:50,340
information, put it at the end.
And then tell them what's in

1097
01:20:50,340 --> 01:20:52,710
them and tell them what's in the
background information and why

1098
01:20:52,710 --> 01:20:56,010
they should read it. Right.
You've got to do the Whitman sampler.

1099
01:20:56,010 --> 01:21:02,220
You got to guide people through
so it takes more time. And you.

1100
01:21:02,220 --> 01:21:07,110
You have to. I mean, it's harder.
I think in some ways it's a lot

1101
01:21:07,110 --> 01:21:09,930
harder because you have to spend
a lot more time doing it.

1102
01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:15,980, to be to be effective, you also have to establish

1103
01:21:15,980 --> 01:21:21,080
norms in your organization.
What is, what is,

1104
01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:27,070
the threshold for when you return
a communication? Is it 24 hours?

1105
01:21:27,100 --> 01:21:31,270
Is it 48 hours.
What set the appropriate expectations

1106
01:21:31,270 --> 01:21:36,990
for when you should hear from people. What is the best channel?

1107
01:21:37,940 --> 01:21:41,510
When I start working with a client,
I say, what is the best way for me to

1108
01:21:41,510 --> 01:21:50,340
talk to you? Is it text? Is it email?
Is it? Teams. Is it zoom?

1109
01:21:51,300 --> 01:21:56,290
Is it the phone? Or some combination.
And so I asked people, okay,

1110
01:21:56,290 --> 01:22:00,070
if I really need to get to you
because there's some really urgent

1111
01:22:00,070 --> 01:22:03,190
matter. What's the best way?
What are you going to pay

1112
01:22:03,190 --> 01:22:07,200
attention to?
And everybody needs to do that with

1113
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:09,840
their boss and their boss's boss,
right?

1114
01:22:09,870 --> 01:22:15,540
And so what happens is sometimes,
well, I'm on teams and I want

1115
01:22:15,540 --> 01:22:21,610
everything that way or I'm on text.
And and and maybe I don't like text.

1116
01:22:21,910 --> 01:22:25,150
Okay, but I've learned to use text
because that's what other people use.

1117
01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:27,780
Right.
And I want to get my point across,

1118
01:22:27,780 --> 01:22:30,990
and I want them to hear me.
So I better learn to use their

1119
01:22:30,990 --> 01:22:34,410
preferred mode of communication.
So and especially for younger

1120
01:22:34,410 --> 01:22:38,580
people to understand this, there's a power dynamic.

1121
01:22:40,940 --> 01:22:47,860, if your boss. Wants an email.
But you want a tax, you better

1122
01:22:47,860 --> 01:22:54,710
give them an email. Because.
You're the lower person on the

1123
01:22:54,710 --> 01:23:02,360
totem pole.
And you need to engage them. Yes.

1124
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:08,410
They need to communicate to you. But.
You need things from them in

1125
01:23:08,410 --> 01:23:12,940
order to do what you do.
And therefore you have to go

1126
01:23:12,940 --> 01:23:15,760
into their world.
And this goes back to the whole

1127
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:19,630
notion of being an interpreter
and so on, is understanding the

1128
01:23:19,630 --> 01:23:23,670
world that somebody is in.
And working from that.

1129
01:23:23,670 --> 01:23:28,900
And it's exhausting.
It's it's it's hard work, but it's

1130
01:23:28,900 --> 01:23:34,360
the difference between people who
are, really, really successful.

1131
01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:40,940
And those. Who often aren't.
Well, if you were designing a

1132
01:23:40,940 --> 01:23:44,570
company culture for communication,
what would be the ideal in your

1133
01:23:44,570 --> 01:23:50,780
opinion for that?
Well, it would be an open culture.

1134
01:23:50,780 --> 01:23:55,970
And by that I mean, where there
were certain thresholds that yes,

1135
01:23:55,970 --> 01:24:00,820
we don't ignore people. Okay.
If we don't want to talk to them

1136
01:24:01,510 --> 01:24:07,480
or we can't answer their question,
we should at least tell them that.

1137
01:24:08,050 --> 01:24:11,200
We can't answer that right now.
I'm not going to be able to get

1138
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:16,330
back to you for a week, that's just common courtesy.

1139
01:24:16,840 --> 01:24:20,560
Right. I think people get frustrated.
You send something out,

1140
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:24,880
and it's crickets. They're ghosted.
Yeah. You're ghosting.

1141
01:24:24,880 --> 01:24:26,980
So then you're like, well,
did they not like it?

1142
01:24:26,980 --> 01:24:29,500
And it might be that their kid
was sick.

1143
01:24:30,010 --> 01:24:32,770
Yeah, but you've already made the
other person on the other end

1144
01:24:32,800 --> 01:24:36,430
has made all these assumptions.
I'm going to lose my job.

1145
01:24:37,030 --> 01:24:39,100
You know, I mean,
I've heard this from people.

1146
01:24:39,280 --> 01:24:44,350
My boss didn't get back to me, so, taking the time and

1147
01:24:44,350 --> 01:24:49,700
understanding. That.
No, you don't want to get into a

1148
01:24:49,700 --> 01:24:52,940
ping pong match with email.
Got it. Yeah. But.

1149
01:24:52,940 --> 01:24:57,560
But if someone sends you something.
How long does it take to say I

1150
01:24:57,560 --> 01:25:01,640
got it? We'll look it over.
Okay, then they know you got it.

1151
01:25:03,390 --> 01:25:07,590
Right?
In fact, I use Gmail and it has

1152
01:25:07,590 --> 01:25:10,110
those responses in there.
You just have to click on one of

1153
01:25:10,110 --> 01:25:12,360
them.
And he used to have even reminds

1154
01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:15,300
you three days later after you
sent something to follow up to,

1155
01:25:15,300 --> 01:25:19,380
which is interesting. Yeah.
So so I think a lot of it is,

1156
01:25:19,380 --> 01:25:22,110
is a culture that's based on
respect for other people,

1157
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:27,240
whether you're at the top of the
heap or the very bottom,

1158
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:31,590
it's that everybody has a role to
play in the organization and that

1159
01:25:31,590 --> 01:25:38,130
everybody deserves the courtesy of
being responded to at some point,

1160
01:25:38,130 --> 01:25:43,760
but set some thresholds for what
those expectations are. Right.

1161
01:25:43,940 --> 01:25:49,100
If I expect, you know,
if if I expect when I send an email

1162
01:25:49,100 --> 01:25:53,120
to hear from you in three hours.
Then that's got to be clear.

1163
01:25:53,850 --> 01:25:56,880
But that's my expectation.
So if you can't meet that

1164
01:25:56,880 --> 01:26:01,960
expectation, you better tell me why.
I mean this, you know, this.

1165
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:05,680
What you just said actually
should be written in.

1166
01:26:06,570 --> 01:26:10,680
The rules the first day you come on.
I'm just going to say this.

1167
01:26:10,680 --> 01:26:15,450
Any job. What?
These protocols are so important,

1168
01:26:15,450 --> 01:26:18,450
it seems to me, because otherwise
there's misunderstanding,

1169
01:26:18,450 --> 01:26:22,470
there's, you know, fear.
And, you know,

1170
01:26:22,470 --> 01:26:26,310
you're creating a negative culture.
If you don't have a very clear

1171
01:26:26,310 --> 01:26:29,220
understanding on how you
communicate within a company.

1172
01:26:29,610 --> 01:26:34,830
Is that. That's absolutely true.
And what those cultural norms

1173
01:26:34,830 --> 01:26:39,030
are in our company.
This is how we behave towards because

1174
01:26:39,030 --> 01:26:45,000
it's not about the email, it's about
how we behave towards each other.

1175
01:26:45,000 --> 01:26:50,820
It's about how we build or value
relationships right with the people.

1176
01:26:50,970 --> 01:26:53,220
And everybody likes to talk
about collaboration.

1177
01:26:53,220 --> 01:26:56,310
And, you know,
all these offices we're going to

1178
01:26:56,310 --> 01:26:59,280
build collaboration space.
Collaboration space only works

1179
01:26:59,280 --> 01:27:03,450
if you are willing to do it.
You know, when I when I worked in

1180
01:27:03,450 --> 01:27:06,180
the hospital, there was this joke.
How many psychiatrists does it

1181
01:27:06,180 --> 01:27:07,740
take to change a light bulb?
I don't know,

1182
01:27:07,740 --> 01:27:11,310
but the light bulb has to want to
change and it's the same thing.

1183
01:27:11,310 --> 01:27:13,530
You know how many people does it
take you? You gotta.

1184
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:16,020
You've got to be committed to
communicating.

1185
01:27:16,700 --> 01:27:20,270
And it's a soft skill,
so it's always not.

1186
01:27:20,270 --> 01:27:24,950
It's not necessarily considered as
important in the hierarchy of things.

1187
01:27:24,950 --> 01:27:30,500
People will talk about it.
But but but they you know, the

1188
01:27:30,740 --> 01:27:34,130
let's get the legal people in fun.
Let's get the accounting people.

1189
01:27:34,790 --> 01:27:36,950
And then comms was kind of,
well, you know,

1190
01:27:36,950 --> 01:27:40,880
that's a nice fluffy thing to have.
But comms people know how to

1191
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:46,130
have conversations.
That's really what public relations

1192
01:27:46,340 --> 01:27:51,500
digital it's all about having
conversation I mean deleting them.

1193
01:27:51,500 --> 01:27:54,680
It's just it's it's just amazing
to me.

1194
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:58,340
There is no more important thing
than to be able to understand

1195
01:27:58,340 --> 01:28:02,540
what other people are saying.
And that's the most important thing,

1196
01:28:02,540 --> 01:28:05,120
right?
Because everybody wants to be heard

1197
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:08,810
and everybody wants to be understood,
and everyone wants to be valued.

1198
01:28:09,290 --> 01:28:14,120
And it's simple things, you know,
it's it's it's simple things.

1199
01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:19,690
And and taking the time to
understand and. Other people.

1200
01:28:20,290 --> 01:28:24,430, you know, I had a client, recently, and we were going

1201
01:28:24,430 --> 01:28:26,860
back and forth about something,
and then she talked about something

1202
01:28:26,860 --> 01:28:32,040
that happened with her family.
And so I commented on, yes, that

1203
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:37,860
can be really difficult, you know, because that was that was

1204
01:28:37,950 --> 01:28:42,600
something that was,
getting in the way of her being

1205
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:46,690
able to respond to me. Right.
But I knew where she was coming from.

1206
01:28:47,170 --> 01:28:53,450
Okay, take your time. Sure.
So, so really important.

1207
01:28:53,780 --> 01:28:57,050
What advice would you give early
stage young professionals in the

1208
01:28:57,050 --> 01:29:00,290
real estate industry regarding
building his or her network?

1209
01:29:00,590 --> 01:29:03,890
What specific advice would you
suggest for approaching experts

1210
01:29:03,890 --> 01:29:09,200
to learn which which makes these
experts feel honored to share?

1211
01:29:09,230 --> 01:29:12,890
You know what I'm saying there. Yeah.
Well, I get asked this all the time

1212
01:29:12,890 --> 01:29:16,460
because I get asked by people my
daughter is thinking of going into

1213
01:29:16,460 --> 01:29:19,490
comms, or my daughter is thinking
about going into real estate.

1214
01:29:19,490 --> 01:29:23,690
And I, because of that person,
I make the time and I go talk to that

1215
01:29:23,690 --> 01:29:27,800
person, and I never and I and the
only thing I say to them is I just

1216
01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:32,290
want to know what happens to you.
Many times I never get a thank

1217
01:29:32,290 --> 01:29:36,410
you note.
I never get I never hear back

1218
01:29:36,410 --> 01:29:40,930
from them.
And there's a sense of entitlement.

1219
01:29:40,930 --> 01:29:43,630
Like, of course you're going to
do this because I'm me.

1220
01:29:44,350 --> 01:29:50,170
So if you are,
you have to recognize that when you

1221
01:29:50,170 --> 01:29:53,500
talk to people and everybody says,
well, I need a mentor,

1222
01:29:53,590 --> 01:29:55,840
I want to be a mentor, well,
you got to be a good mentee.

1223
01:29:57,550 --> 01:30:03,010
And I believe that you're never
too old to be MMT and never too

1224
01:30:03,010 --> 01:30:06,310
young to be a mentor.
But you need to look at the

1225
01:30:06,310 --> 01:30:10,870
relationship as also what can
you bring to that relationship,

1226
01:30:10,870 --> 01:30:14,840
not just take.
I think that's that's really

1227
01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:18,110
important about networking and
just show genuine interest.

1228
01:30:18,590 --> 01:30:23,870
Ask people questions.
There's a thing if you're talking,

1229
01:30:23,870 --> 01:30:29,230
you're not selling. So.
And what I mean by that is that

1230
01:30:29,230 --> 01:30:33,090
when you meet people.
The tendency is to say, hi,

1231
01:30:33,090 --> 01:30:36,480
I'm so-and-so and I do this, that,
and the other thing, and I'm,

1232
01:30:36,480 --> 01:30:39,000
you know, and I'm this and that,
and I'm looking for a job and I'm,

1233
01:30:39,300 --> 01:30:43,470
you know, I've seen people do this
at, at, networking events.

1234
01:30:44,160 --> 01:30:49,740
And, instead it might be better
to just ask people questions.

1235
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:56,570
Tell me, you know, find something
that is is in common and just be

1236
01:30:56,570 --> 01:31:01,230
open and curious about people.
You know, just just be curious

1237
01:31:01,230 --> 01:31:05,250
about people and what they do
and what makes them tick and

1238
01:31:05,790 --> 01:31:11,200
what you might learn from them.
Well, you just said what I tell my

1239
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:17,230
community almost to the letter.
Yeah, well, the community of young

1240
01:31:17,230 --> 01:31:20,500
people that I'm counseling all
the time and just say, you know,

1241
01:31:20,500 --> 01:31:25,300
listen and you'll learn.
Ask good questions, be curious,

1242
01:31:25,300 --> 01:31:29,910
find out. What turns people on.
And then you can learn whether

1243
01:31:29,910 --> 01:31:33,600
it resonates with you or not,
and whether it's free to continue

1244
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:37,170
working with them or talking to them
or doing whatever you need to do.

1245
01:31:37,410 --> 01:31:42,660
And one, one way to ask questions is,
is not to ask,

1246
01:31:42,660 --> 01:31:48,780
yes or no questions. No. Yeah.
And to ask questions in such a way.

1247
01:31:48,780 --> 01:31:53,430
Well, how is it that you.
What prompted you to.

1248
01:31:55,020 --> 01:32:00,590
What do you think about?
How would how might you deal

1249
01:32:00,590 --> 01:32:07,010
with a situation like this, tell me,

1250
01:32:07,010 --> 01:32:12,860
tell me about your company.
What do you like about being there?

1251
01:32:14,370 --> 01:32:21,240
Write all open ended questions, and also learn to read cues.

1252
01:32:21,450 --> 01:32:25,770
So if you're at a networking event
and you're trying to learn about

1253
01:32:25,770 --> 01:32:29,460
somebody and they are talking to the
person that they've been trying to

1254
01:32:29,460 --> 01:32:35,460
connect with. Right. Shut your mouth.
Leave them alone. Right. You have to.

1255
01:32:35,460 --> 01:32:37,260
You know,
there's a little bit of EQ that has

1256
01:32:37,260 --> 01:32:46,220
to go on here is to understand,
time and place. Very good.

1257
01:32:46,220 --> 01:32:50,510
And especially at networking events
it's important to know when to

1258
01:32:50,510 --> 01:32:56,750
strike and when, not just. Exactly.
Exactly, exactly exactly. Yeah.

1259
01:32:57,050 --> 01:33:00,050
And you know, being able to pick
up on that and that's, that's

1260
01:33:00,050 --> 01:33:03,770
something you learn over time. Sure.
You've been in many

1261
01:33:03,770 --> 01:33:07,790
communications scenarios.
What are the most uncomfortable

1262
01:33:07,790 --> 01:33:11,030
situations relating to our
business that you commonly see,

1263
01:33:11,030 --> 01:33:14,030
and what strategies you recommend
for people to handle them?

1264
01:33:14,030 --> 01:33:15,710
We may have already dealt with a
few of them,

1265
01:33:15,710 --> 01:33:19,850
but maybe you can re-emphasize.
So, the biggest ones are when

1266
01:33:19,850 --> 01:33:28,070
there's bad stuff happens, right, crane collapses, deals

1267
01:33:28,070 --> 01:33:31,040
falls through and it's hurt public,

1268
01:33:31,580 --> 01:33:37,300
people in your company behave badly, somebody embezzled money.

1269
01:33:37,330 --> 01:33:42,760
You know, I've seen it, you know.
I, you know. And.

1270
01:33:43,390 --> 01:33:45,790
Okay, so those are more extreme
things, perhaps.

1271
01:33:45,790 --> 01:33:50,050
But, you know,
you have to lay people off.

1272
01:33:50,140 --> 01:33:56,650
Deceit, maybe. Sorry. Deceit.
Deceit. Yes. People have have.

1273
01:33:56,650 --> 01:34:00,910
Or, you know, some you thought
you were going to get a certain

1274
01:34:00,910 --> 01:34:05,490
deal and someone else snatches
it away from you. Yeah. Right.

1275
01:34:06,120 --> 01:34:09,930, you tell somebody something that
you thought was in confidence, and

1276
01:34:09,930 --> 01:34:16,080
then it's all over the place.
So in those situations, well,

1277
01:34:16,080 --> 01:34:19,500
you learn a lesson, the, the other thing and,

1278
01:34:19,500 --> 01:34:22,380
and it's something that I have
done a lot, been doing a lot of

1279
01:34:22,380 --> 01:34:28,810
thinking about is.
Being prepared not only for when bad

1280
01:34:28,810 --> 01:34:32,980
things happen, but being prepared for
an opportunity to walk into your lap.

1281
01:34:34,150 --> 01:34:38,380
Example A story I like to tell is
that I was at some some friend

1282
01:34:38,380 --> 01:34:41,230
of mine's office, and George
Clooney happened to be there.

1283
01:34:41,990 --> 01:34:47,450
And, as I was leaving,
you know, and he was signing

1284
01:34:47,450 --> 01:34:49,310
autographs and she's like,
do you want to do something?

1285
01:34:49,340 --> 01:34:53,630
Like, no, I don't need to do that.
Well, I get in the elevator and I

1286
01:34:53,630 --> 01:34:57,200
hear, hold the elevator and it's
George Clooney, and it's me and

1287
01:34:57,200 --> 01:35:01,340
George Clooney in this elevator.
Right? And I was totally tongue tied.

1288
01:35:01,490 --> 01:35:04,040
I didn't have anything to say.
I didn't know.

1289
01:35:04,370 --> 01:35:06,530
I said something like, wow,
that was really nice of you to

1290
01:35:06,530 --> 01:35:09,110
sign all those autographs.
Your arm must get tired.

1291
01:35:09,410 --> 01:35:14,120
And he said, yes, you know,
imagine doing this at a stadium.

1292
01:35:14,120 --> 01:35:17,870
And then the doors opened and he
laughed and I laughed and,

1293
01:35:17,870 --> 01:35:20,840
and so on.
But but I tell that story is to say,

1294
01:35:20,840 --> 01:35:23,600
what if the person you've been
dying to meet.

1295
01:35:24,260 --> 01:35:29,930
Somehow walks into your office
or are you prepared?

1296
01:35:31,080 --> 01:35:37,270
We're having that conversation.
So always thinking about how how

1297
01:35:37,270 --> 01:35:41,630
would I respond?
If that opportunity came across

1298
01:35:41,630 --> 01:35:45,230
and how would I respond?
When I'm in a pressure situation,

1299
01:35:45,230 --> 01:35:48,110
you're making a presentation and
the client hates it.

1300
01:35:48,930 --> 01:35:52,520
And they're mean about it.
Right there, there,

1301
01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:56,270
there really mean. There mean.
Who knows why there mean.

1302
01:35:57,260 --> 01:36:00,710
You know, maybe they had a fight
with their spouse that morning.

1303
01:36:00,710 --> 01:36:05,330
Maybe their boss yelled at them,
but they don't like what you said.

1304
01:36:05,330 --> 01:36:09,940
So what happens is people get very
defensive. And they want to argue.

1305
01:36:11,460 --> 01:36:16,520
And and they just escalate.
And nobody hears each other.

1306
01:36:16,520 --> 01:36:21,770
So it's also thinking, how will I?
How can I learn to deescalate?

1307
01:36:21,770 --> 01:36:24,590
How can I learn to calm myself?
How can I make this?

1308
01:36:24,590 --> 01:36:27,470
It's not about me.
They're angry, but it's really not

1309
01:36:27,470 --> 01:36:30,200
about me. Don't take it personally.
So how do I.

1310
01:36:30,230 --> 01:36:35,580
How would I prepare myself?
Or when the boss questions,

1311
01:36:35,580 --> 01:36:38,880
you know that number is wrong and
you're in front of the whole team

1312
01:36:39,060 --> 01:36:44,010
and you feel really embarrassed.
Okay, how do I how do I deal with

1313
01:36:44,010 --> 01:36:48,660
that? Right. Preparing yourself.
For, for those kinds of

1314
01:36:48,660 --> 01:36:51,780
situations and thinking about how
you would would deal with that.

1315
01:36:51,780 --> 01:36:53,790
And, and,
and you should never go into a

1316
01:36:53,790 --> 01:36:57,450
presentation without having thought
about what's the worst question I

1317
01:36:57,450 --> 01:37:00,120
could get that would make me want
to crawl under the table and be.

1318
01:37:00,480 --> 01:37:05,790
And then how will I answer it? Right.
So you in your book and I'll

1319
01:37:05,790 --> 01:37:09,870
never forget this part.
You talk about a story vault. Yes.

1320
01:37:09,870 --> 01:37:14,700
Which is interesting because it seems
to me if you have a good story vault.

1321
01:37:16,080 --> 01:37:20,490
You can in your mind fairly
quickly come up with a story or a

1322
01:37:20,490 --> 01:37:25,050
way to deflect a situation that's
uncomfortable. Am I, am I right?

1323
01:37:25,350 --> 01:37:28,500
That's absolutely true.
Think about things that you know

1324
01:37:28,500 --> 01:37:31,470
in your own life or what other
people have told you.

1325
01:37:31,470 --> 01:37:35,970
Now you have to be careful about
storytelling because you want to.

1326
01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:39,330
It needs to be your story.
And you have to remember that other

1327
01:37:39,330 --> 01:37:43,200
people who might be in that story may
not want you to tell that story.

1328
01:37:44,100 --> 01:37:47,490
So then you have to disguise that
other people so that people don't

1329
01:37:47,490 --> 01:37:51,240
know who those other people are.
But the point being that you

1330
01:37:51,240 --> 01:37:56,730
tell a story to illustrate.
Or to buy you time.

1331
01:37:58,250 --> 01:38:02,180
Can buy your time too.
And I've been doing it all. All.

1332
01:38:02,210 --> 01:38:06,500
And also it.
Deflects an emotion sometimes. Right.

1333
01:38:06,860 --> 01:38:14,160
It can. It can. If done right.
Yes. Absolutely. Great point.

1334
01:38:16,050 --> 01:38:18,870
So let's shift now to your
company a little bit.

1335
01:38:19,500 --> 01:38:23,190
Talk about how you built it and what
is your mission and what are you

1336
01:38:23,820 --> 01:38:25,980
what are you doing for your clients?
You've already talked a little

1337
01:38:25,980 --> 01:38:28,230
bit about that, but maybe go
into a little more depth.

1338
01:38:28,740 --> 01:38:32,250
So this this is where we might say
in journalism we buried the lead

1339
01:38:32,250 --> 01:38:37,410
because it's coming at the end, but, wager Group,

1340
01:38:37,410 --> 01:38:44,190
we are a we designed communications
programs. For clients.

1341
01:38:44,190 --> 01:38:49,470
We work with executive leadership and
their teams. And we do three things.

1342
01:38:49,500 --> 01:38:55,300
We help people clarify their purpose.
Simplify their message.

1343
01:38:56,220 --> 01:39:00,270
Amplify their presence so that
they win more business.

1344
01:39:01,320 --> 01:39:06,270
Motivate their teams.
Expand their influence.

1345
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:08,460
And if you're a nonprofit,
raise more money.

1346
01:39:08,460 --> 01:39:10,980
And either way,
I mean win more business.

1347
01:39:10,980 --> 01:39:14,910
You're generating more revenue.
So it's it's really using

1348
01:39:14,910 --> 01:39:23,310
communication to build organizations
and to make more confident people

1349
01:39:23,310 --> 01:39:26,370
who can go out in the world and
be brand ambassadors for the

1350
01:39:26,370 --> 01:39:30,560
company or the enterprise.
Can you cite a few client

1351
01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:35,150
examples that. Sure, I'm not going to name them

1352
01:39:35,150 --> 01:39:42,050
necessarily, but,
we have worked with, well,

1353
01:39:42,050 --> 01:39:45,560
I can name one of them, I think, so I worked for many, many years

1354
01:39:45,560 --> 01:39:51,920
with CBRE. We, repped their.
I worked with them in three markets

1355
01:39:52,280 --> 01:39:57,530
and worked with them on building
their communications program.

1356
01:39:57,530 --> 01:40:02,930
So when I started, it was insignia.
I started adding it with insignia and

1357
01:40:02,930 --> 01:40:08,030
then they merged with CBS or CBRE,
acquired them and really worked

1358
01:40:08,030 --> 01:40:13,790
with folks on how to talk about
what they were doing.

1359
01:40:14,420 --> 01:40:18,920
The so we would when we would do
announcements of of deals,

1360
01:40:18,920 --> 01:40:23,420
we would also talk about it from
the client perspective and what

1361
01:40:23,420 --> 01:40:29,300
that meant to the client and
really help them build their

1362
01:40:29,300 --> 01:40:37,250
communications program here in in DC. I've worked with.

1363
01:40:38,280 --> 01:40:42,660
All kinds of organizations really
helping them. Here's another example.

1364
01:40:42,810 --> 01:40:48,180
We just worked with a large,
firm, large design firm,

1365
01:40:48,900 --> 01:40:52,290
and we were brought in to help
them with messaging.

1366
01:40:53,180 --> 01:40:56,930
And we interviewed people inside
their organization.

1367
01:40:56,930 --> 01:41:01,010
We interviewed people outside
the organization and through the

1368
01:41:01,010 --> 01:41:06,160
messaging process.
They came to the conclusion that

1369
01:41:06,160 --> 01:41:14,400
they needed to redo their business
plan because by talking about.

1370
01:41:15,610 --> 01:41:18,880
They're what they said they were
going to be.

1371
01:41:20,850 --> 01:41:23,250
And what they wanted to be or
what they wanted to emphasize.

1372
01:41:23,250 --> 01:41:28,440
They realized that the budgeting and
business planning that they had done,

1373
01:41:28,440 --> 01:41:32,280
actually there was disconnect,
and they needed, if they were

1374
01:41:32,280 --> 01:41:36,180
going to be that, then they needed
to think differently about.

1375
01:41:37,130 --> 01:41:41,360
The structure of their organization.
Wow. So.

1376
01:41:41,360 --> 01:41:45,170
And that's what's so powerful about
that. I always say that if you can.

1377
01:41:46,060 --> 01:41:52,230
Say it. You can be it.
And if you can be it, you can do it.

1378
01:41:52,650 --> 01:41:57,030
And many times people do strategic
planning and business planning and

1379
01:41:57,030 --> 01:42:00,930
they focus on the numbers.
And then they say well okay now

1380
01:42:00,930 --> 01:42:03,540
we're going to be this or we're
going to do this, we're going to

1381
01:42:03,540 --> 01:42:07,500
launch this new thing and then we,
we might get called to help them.

1382
01:42:07,500 --> 01:42:10,110
How do we talk about it.
And we ask them a whole bunch of

1383
01:42:10,110 --> 01:42:13,950
questions that didn't come up or
because of the process,

1384
01:42:13,950 --> 01:42:18,120
we'll find out.
Oh, we're still angry about

1385
01:42:18,120 --> 01:42:23,190
three mergers ago.
Where we never really gelled or,

1386
01:42:23,550 --> 01:42:28,830, we, we, you know,
you all want us to do this,

1387
01:42:28,830 --> 01:42:34,380
but we don't have infrastructure.
So the conversation around how

1388
01:42:34,380 --> 01:42:40,500
we're going to talk about our
brand often uncovers other truths

1389
01:42:40,740 --> 01:42:43,920
that might not have come out,
because it's a lot safer to talk

1390
01:42:43,920 --> 01:42:47,700
about it from a we have a
communications challenge rather

1391
01:42:47,700 --> 01:42:51,930
than we have a product challenge.
We have a team challenge.

1392
01:42:51,930 --> 01:42:55,800
We have a, you know,
infrastructure challenge,

1393
01:42:56,550 --> 01:43:03,270
that those are thorny issues.
But it feels safer to talk about what

1394
01:43:03,270 --> 01:43:05,700
we have. It's marketing's fault.
You know,

1395
01:43:05,700 --> 01:43:09,000
we just don't have the right message.
We don't have the right words.

1396
01:43:09,360 --> 01:43:13,380
Well, the words, you know, Louis
Sullivan said the architect form

1397
01:43:13,380 --> 01:43:21,720
follows function. And communication.
Follows product or service.

1398
01:43:22,790 --> 01:43:25,280
And the delivery of that said
product or service.

1399
01:43:26,330 --> 01:43:31,100
I mean, it seems to me that
communication has to be. Yeah.

1400
01:43:31,490 --> 01:43:38,090
Part of every plan in every way.
Almost. No, it absolutely should.

1401
01:43:38,090 --> 01:43:42,380
But it's often we often and I
think sometimes communications

1402
01:43:42,380 --> 01:43:44,690
firms do this.
You know communications people

1403
01:43:45,110 --> 01:43:47,810
do this to our we do it to
ourselves is that we're brought

1404
01:43:47,810 --> 01:43:56,230
in as task to do certain tasks.
And not tapped into the strategy

1405
01:43:56,860 --> 01:44:01,510
that we can provide.
And the lens that we bring,

1406
01:44:01,510 --> 01:44:03,920
that's different.
Well,

1407
01:44:03,920 --> 01:44:08,810
if you can be the strategy for firms, I would think that you could

1408
01:44:08,810 --> 01:44:13,370
multiply your business ten times.
People would buy into that.

1409
01:44:13,700 --> 01:44:16,490
Yeah, well, that's.
That's kind of where we're going.

1410
01:44:16,910 --> 01:44:18,890
Yeah. That's you know, and then.
The question is,

1411
01:44:18,890 --> 01:44:22,970
do you want to grow that much?
So, yeah, you know, you're

1412
01:44:22,970 --> 01:44:28,100
constrained by your what you're
constraining yourself with. Yeah.

1413
01:44:28,100 --> 01:44:34,130
Well we're we're we do I mean
we're boutique firm right by and

1414
01:44:34,130 --> 01:44:37,520
that's by design. Right, and I, you know, I went

1415
01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:40,430
through this whole period of like,
why don't I build a big firm?

1416
01:44:40,430 --> 01:44:43,370
I certainly could, and I said,
and then I came back down to the

1417
01:44:43,370 --> 01:44:46,370
fact that I don't want to.
Yeah, I want to be boutique firm.

1418
01:44:46,370 --> 01:44:49,700
I want to I want to work with a,
you know, I select the clients

1419
01:44:49,700 --> 01:44:54,470
very carefully and,
and we do very high end consulting.

1420
01:44:54,470 --> 01:44:58,130
And sometimes we have to get into
the strategy through the back door.

1421
01:44:58,770 --> 01:45:02,280
Because a lot of times people
don't know that they need this.

1422
01:45:02,310 --> 01:45:05,430
You know, it's sometimes the product
people don't know that they need.

1423
01:45:05,460 --> 01:45:08,850
They think that.
They think they need the tactical

1424
01:45:08,850 --> 01:45:13,580
side. I need a press release.
I need social media.

1425
01:45:13,700 --> 01:45:17,240
I need I need a video. Right?
So sometimes you have to get in

1426
01:45:17,510 --> 01:45:22,820
through that very concrete want or
need to get to the other things.

1427
01:45:22,850 --> 01:45:25,760
Well, it seems to me that if you
ask the right questions when you're

1428
01:45:25,760 --> 01:45:30,080
being engaged or when they're trying
to lead you, if you ask the right

1429
01:45:30,080 --> 01:45:32,900
question, say, wait a minute,
I hadn't thought of that.

1430
01:45:34,040 --> 01:45:38,900
Which which we often which is which
is what often happens. Yes. Yeah.

1431
01:45:38,900 --> 01:45:45,780
And then even then, when we start
working with people. He won't.

1432
01:45:45,810 --> 01:45:47,610
Once we get in there, we say,
you know.

1433
01:45:49,210 --> 01:45:54,130
I know we said we were going to
do this, but now that we're here,

1434
01:45:54,310 --> 01:45:56,740
that's not going to.
We need to be doing this.

1435
01:45:57,010 --> 01:46:01,150
And most of the time I can convince
people, right, that that that's

1436
01:46:01,150 --> 01:46:04,330
going to be more effective because
they'll see it themselves. Yeah.

1437
01:46:04,750 --> 01:46:09,880
I mean, you can make it real easy.
To understand if they see, oh,

1438
01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:12,880
I didn't know that or I didn't
see that, you know.

1439
01:46:13,270 --> 01:46:19,120
But you have to do it in a way
that gives people a sense of

1440
01:46:19,120 --> 01:46:23,050
ownership and agency. Yeah.
You want them to make it think

1441
01:46:23,050 --> 01:46:26,380
it's their idea, not yours.
We did it, did it.

1442
01:46:26,380 --> 01:46:29,140
And, you know, because they know
their enterprise better than I

1443
01:46:29,140 --> 01:46:35,590
ever will. Of course. Right, and, and one of the things

1444
01:46:35,590 --> 01:46:41,440
that I've, you know, what I've,
I've learned is that, in when

1445
01:46:41,440 --> 01:46:46,460
when someone hires a consultant.
It's because they want to change

1446
01:46:46,460 --> 01:46:50,240
something.
They're they're in a state that

1447
01:46:50,240 --> 01:46:53,720
they don't want to be in.
They want to be somewhere else.

1448
01:46:53,720 --> 01:46:57,350
Right.
And so it's a question of how do

1449
01:46:57,350 --> 01:47:01,780
we help them?
Get to where they want to go,

1450
01:47:01,780 --> 01:47:06,460
where they think they want to go.
And help them figure out if

1451
01:47:06,460 --> 01:47:11,110
that's the right destination.
And then how do we how to get there?

1452
01:47:12,860 --> 01:47:15,890
We're all in the change business,
right?

1453
01:47:15,920 --> 01:47:18,530
You know, everyone always wants
to think about that from a

1454
01:47:18,530 --> 01:47:21,530
non-profit perspective or a social
social enterprise perspective.

1455
01:47:21,530 --> 01:47:25,430
But we are in the I mean,
if somebody is trying to lease space,

1456
01:47:26,090 --> 01:47:30,110
they want to make a change.
They need bigger.

1457
01:47:30,140 --> 01:47:35,960
They need different. You know?
So. They're buying something.

1458
01:47:35,960 --> 01:47:38,060
They're buying,
but they're buying something

1459
01:47:38,060 --> 01:47:42,590
different from what they have,
right? Right. It's it's a journey.

1460
01:47:42,890 --> 01:47:45,890
Yeah, it's a journey.
It's a purchase. Right. Yeah.

1461
01:47:46,950 --> 01:47:48,060
All right.
Now I'm going to get you the

1462
01:47:48,060 --> 01:47:52,050
final questions. Just a few.
What are what are some of the

1463
01:47:52,050 --> 01:47:55,170
biggest wins, losses and
surprising events of your career?

1464
01:47:56,990 --> 01:48:01,640
Well, so you don't win every project
or everything that you go after.

1465
01:48:02,510 --> 01:48:06,620, I used to get very upset
about that in the beginning,

1466
01:48:06,740 --> 01:48:09,140
and then I just said, well,
you win some, you lose some.

1467
01:48:09,140 --> 01:48:13,610
And I've also taken the attitude
that if we didn't win something,

1468
01:48:13,610 --> 01:48:17,630
I always tried to find out why.
Right. You know what? What was it?

1469
01:48:17,630 --> 01:48:20,870
Something in the way that we
presented ourselves so that we

1470
01:48:20,870 --> 01:48:24,380
can learn from it, but sometimes it's just,

1471
01:48:24,380 --> 01:48:31,190
you know, didn't win it and move on,
you know, I think.

1472
01:48:32,130 --> 01:48:38,160
The biggest things is, is, is,
you know, learning from mistakes.

1473
01:48:38,670 --> 01:48:43,050
You know, we all make them, not reading a situation a certain

1474
01:48:43,050 --> 01:48:50,410
way or, pushing too hard, you know,

1475
01:48:50,410 --> 01:48:54,040
I know that this is the right.
And this this really more happened

1476
01:48:54,040 --> 01:49:00,100
earlier in my business where as
they I know what they need to do.

1477
01:49:00,100 --> 01:49:04,060
Oh my God, if they do that, they're
going to totally wreck themselves,

1478
01:49:04,240 --> 01:49:09,460
right. Well, you have to.
I might know what they need to do,

1479
01:49:09,820 --> 01:49:13,570
but they have to know what they need
to do. They have to see it. So.

1480
01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:18,770
And then being able to say, you
know what? I made a mistake there.

1481
01:49:19,920 --> 01:49:25,050
And own up to it. Sure. And say.
And I've had lots of clients really

1482
01:49:25,050 --> 01:49:29,490
appreciate that. You know. Oh gosh.
We, we we made a big you know,

1483
01:49:29,490 --> 01:49:32,940
we, we we didn't do that right.
Or we didn't do that well.

1484
01:49:33,510 --> 01:49:36,390
And and this is something I tell
a lot of consultant, you know

1485
01:49:36,390 --> 01:49:39,780
what if you messed up eat it.
You know,

1486
01:49:39,780 --> 01:49:44,280
don't charge a client to do it over
again because it's your mistake,

1487
01:49:44,280 --> 01:49:50,220
right? Right. Now if there's.
No surprises,

1488
01:49:50,220 --> 01:49:53,460
that's the other thing, surprises.
And that's the other thing,

1489
01:49:53,970 --> 01:49:57,480
you know, with fees and things and,
and this is something I found when I

1490
01:49:57,480 --> 01:50:02,700
was on the client side, I would have
people all of a sudden get a bill.

1491
01:50:03,760 --> 01:50:06,970
You know, and nobody told me
that we were out of scope.

1492
01:50:07,920 --> 01:50:13,120
Well, I have a I had a pretty finite
budget. So now you're telling me.

1493
01:50:13,850 --> 01:50:16,550
You know, and then we'd have to come
up with the money and, you know, we'd

1494
01:50:16,550 --> 01:50:21,110
mess up other parts of our budgeting.
So I always believe in being

1495
01:50:21,110 --> 01:50:25,040
very transparent with people.
Okay, we can do anything you want.

1496
01:50:25,730 --> 01:50:31,940
If you want to do that,
that means either you. That's more.

1497
01:50:32,740 --> 01:50:36,430
More time, more money, more whatever,
or what are we not going to do

1498
01:50:36,970 --> 01:50:39,840
so we can do that thing?
But I always have those

1499
01:50:39,840 --> 01:50:42,270
conversations with people because
I don't want to be surprised,

1500
01:50:42,270 --> 01:50:46,290
so they shouldn't be surprised.
Has anything come out of left

1501
01:50:46,290 --> 01:50:50,970
field that you didn't expect?
As far as the client relationship or.

1502
01:50:51,060 --> 01:50:53,940
Yeah.
Well, when we've when we've won some

1503
01:50:53,940 --> 01:51:00,570
really big projects, you know,
the we're the David and we, you know,

1504
01:51:00,570 --> 01:51:07,770
there was, we submitted a.
I got an RFP out of the blue for

1505
01:51:07,770 --> 01:51:12,270
a very prestigious,
large national foundation.

1506
01:51:12,270 --> 01:51:14,700
And I said, oh, I'm not going to
bid on that because, you know,

1507
01:51:14,700 --> 01:51:18,390
we're not going to get that.
And then I sat in on the bitter call

1508
01:51:18,930 --> 01:51:21,720
and I listened to the 18 other firms.
I'm like, these people don't

1509
01:51:21,720 --> 01:51:25,200
know what they're talking about.
And a friend of mine said, dad,

1510
01:51:25,200 --> 01:51:27,840
just do it, you know,
we'll go in together, we'll do it,

1511
01:51:27,840 --> 01:51:35,300
you know? And so.
They we we did the we responded

1512
01:51:35,300 --> 01:51:38,600
to the RFP and I put a line in
there about.

1513
01:51:39,450 --> 01:51:43,260
They kept saying they wanted to
change something or I,

1514
01:51:43,260 --> 01:51:46,530
and I said something like, well,
it's this sort of reminds me of

1515
01:51:46,800 --> 01:51:49,020
Lewis Powell and pornography.
Like,

1516
01:51:49,020 --> 01:51:52,170
are you going to know it when you see
it or are you going to define it?

1517
01:51:52,170 --> 01:51:55,440
That that was the question I
asked and my partner said,

1518
01:51:55,440 --> 01:51:58,890
don't put that in there.
I put that in there and we were

1519
01:51:58,890 --> 01:52:00,390
shortlisted and we go in for the
meeting.

1520
01:52:00,390 --> 01:52:03,150
And the first thing they said is,
we love that line, because that's

1521
01:52:03,150 --> 01:52:07,290
exactly our problem. Right?
And we ended up getting the work, and

1522
01:52:07,290 --> 01:52:12,990
it was a two and a half year project
with this very large national group.

1523
01:52:13,500 --> 01:52:20,640
And, we beat out 18 other firms.
That's awesome. So, you know.

1524
01:52:21,000 --> 01:52:23,670, and, you know, we've had the
privilege to work with some really

1525
01:52:23,670 --> 01:52:29,700
amazing people, and that's been.
But sometimes, you know, when we

1526
01:52:29,730 --> 01:52:35,430
when we win a big project like that, or, or a client like that,

1527
01:52:35,430 --> 01:52:38,910
you know, that that.
Where we weren't sure we would

1528
01:52:38,910 --> 01:52:41,340
or were competing against all
these other people.

1529
01:52:41,730 --> 01:52:47,320
And that's that's very gratifying.
You like that? That's great. Yeah.

1530
01:52:47,320 --> 01:52:51,550
So what are your life priorities
among family work and giving

1531
01:52:51,550 --> 01:52:57,910
back this? So. Yeah, well, I,

1532
01:52:57,910 --> 01:53:05,520
I moved to Annapolis and.
Really like being on the water.

1533
01:53:05,520 --> 01:53:09,180
And so, you know, I like to,
to really spend time.

1534
01:53:09,180 --> 01:53:13,890
I at this point, I really want to
make sure I don't really believe

1535
01:53:13,890 --> 01:53:17,850
in work life balance as much as
I believe in work life harmony.

1536
01:53:18,000 --> 01:53:21,300
I heard somebody say that,
and I think that's really it.

1537
01:53:21,840 --> 01:53:28,070
It's making sure you have time.
For people, relationships.

1538
01:53:28,310 --> 01:53:32,510
Making sure you have time to to
check on, check in on people.

1539
01:53:32,510 --> 01:53:36,980
Especially when people are hurting
that, you know, I really,

1540
01:53:36,980 --> 01:53:43,190
you know, doing a lot of travel, there was a long period of time,

1541
01:53:43,220 --> 01:53:44,990
especially when my kids were
growing up.

1542
01:53:44,990 --> 01:53:49,880
I didn't want to travel, and now I
do. So I'm hoping to do more of that.

1543
01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:55,370
And,
just really find a way of.

1544
01:53:56,300 --> 01:53:59,000
I think I have a pretty good
work harmony right now,

1545
01:53:59,000 --> 01:54:02,240
but making sure that we keep that.
What do you give back to the

1546
01:54:02,240 --> 01:54:06,800
community?
So I am on a number of boards.

1547
01:54:06,800 --> 01:54:12,590
I chair a board for the school
for Ethics and Global Leadership,

1548
01:54:12,590 --> 01:54:17,570
which is a high school semester
school program with.

1549
01:54:17,570 --> 01:54:21,410
We have three campuses in Washington,
South Africa and London.

1550
01:54:21,410 --> 01:54:24,950
Just open the London campus, and we
bring high school students from all

1551
01:54:24,950 --> 01:54:30,530
over the country to these campuses,
and they get part of their junior

1552
01:54:30,530 --> 01:54:34,760
year taught through a lens of ethics,
and they learn English and math and

1553
01:54:34,760 --> 01:54:39,430
science through the lens of ethics.
And,

1554
01:54:39,430 --> 01:54:42,640
the other board I have been on for
a long time is Jubilee Housing.

1555
01:54:44,170 --> 01:54:47,650
And have been very involved with
that organization for a very,

1556
01:54:47,650 --> 01:54:51,870
very long time.
So, and I've been on other non-profit

1557
01:54:51,870 --> 01:54:56,010
boards and do some volunteer work,
but those are the two things that are

1558
01:54:56,010 --> 01:55:01,680
occupying my. Time at the moment.
Are you involved in the at all

1559
01:55:01,680 --> 01:55:05,880
in the curriculum on that, school of ethics there.

1560
01:55:05,880 --> 01:55:09,120
I mean, do you.
So I'm a good board member,

1561
01:55:09,120 --> 01:55:13,750
and I stay in my lane, which means that we have an

1562
01:55:13,750 --> 01:55:18,910
exceptional, head of school.
We we provide,

1563
01:55:18,910 --> 01:55:22,060
advice and guidance.
We, one of the things that we

1564
01:55:22,060 --> 01:55:27,550
did, that I was very proud of,
is we did a strategic plan.

1565
01:55:27,550 --> 01:55:31,330
It was the first strategic plan,
really serious strategic plan

1566
01:55:31,330 --> 01:55:35,680
that the organization had done.
And, it's only 15 years old,

1567
01:55:35,680 --> 01:55:40,690
and we, brought in a consultant
and did all the right, you know,

1568
01:55:40,690 --> 01:55:43,090
asked a lot of the right questions.
And,

1569
01:55:43,090 --> 01:55:49,480
but it's up to the head of school,
you know, we set vision and and,

1570
01:55:49,810 --> 01:55:54,070, direction, but it's up to the
head of school to deliver on that.

1571
01:55:54,070 --> 01:55:57,760
And,
and we as a board need to support.

1572
01:55:58,470 --> 01:56:03,450
Him and his, and his team.
But we do make suggestions,

1573
01:56:03,450 --> 01:56:07,050
about many things.
About involving more.

1574
01:56:07,320 --> 01:56:09,750
You know, the program here in
Washington is very focused on

1575
01:56:09,750 --> 01:56:14,550
political ethics and, government.
And, you know,

1576
01:56:14,550 --> 01:56:18,450
we we need to be looking at AI
and technology and so on.

1577
01:56:18,450 --> 01:56:21,840
The program in London is more
focused on finance because of

1578
01:56:21,840 --> 01:56:25,980
London being a finance center.
And, our program in South Africa,

1579
01:56:26,070 --> 01:56:32,340, is focused on a lot of
cross-cultural. Issues. Yeah.

1580
01:56:33,500 --> 01:56:38,460
It's great. It's a great program.
So what would what advice would you

1581
01:56:38,460 --> 01:56:43,900
give your 25 year old self today?
I would tell myself not to worry

1582
01:56:43,900 --> 01:56:49,150
so much. That.
That things will work out even

1583
01:56:49,150 --> 01:56:51,220
when they don't look like
they're going to.

1584
01:56:51,250 --> 01:56:55,240
They will work out and you will
figure it out. That's great.

1585
01:56:55,240 --> 01:56:58,570
I wish I had known that then,
because it would have saved me a

1586
01:56:58,570 --> 01:57:01,780
lot of angst.
Well, since you're a communication

1587
01:57:01,900 --> 01:57:05,650
expert, this last question that
I ask all my guests, I hope you

1588
01:57:05,650 --> 01:57:09,880
got a pretty good answer for.
If you could post a statement on

1589
01:57:09,880 --> 01:57:13,030
a billboard on the Capitol
Beltway for millions to see,

1590
01:57:13,030 --> 01:57:21,150
what would it say.
Okay, I was going to say something

1591
01:57:21,150 --> 01:57:24,480
else, but I'm not going to, I would I would probably go

1592
01:57:24,480 --> 01:57:33,350
back to. Stop worrying so much.
Stop worrying so. Much because.

1593
01:57:33,350 --> 01:57:36,880
I hear, I mean.
But, you know,

1594
01:57:36,880 --> 01:57:38,980
because people are worried.
You know, we worry about the

1595
01:57:38,980 --> 01:57:44,570
things we can't control. So.
You know, stop worrying.

1596
01:57:44,600 --> 01:57:47,090
Focus on what you can control.
Maybe that's.

1597
01:57:47,090 --> 01:57:50,090
That would be the headline.
That's great. Well, Liz.

1598
01:57:50,090 --> 01:57:54,020
Thank you very much for this
wide ranging conversation.

1599
01:57:54,020 --> 01:57:56,870
Was it was really good.
It was some good advice and good

1600
01:57:56,870 --> 01:57:59,690
thoughts. I appreciate. It.
Thank you.

1601
01:58:00,020 --> 01:58:03,020
But actually two hours went
pretty fast. Yeah.

1602
01:58:03,530 --> 01:58:05,330
But that's what most people have
said.

1603
01:58:06,770 --> 01:58:10,160
Well, you know, we all like to
talk about ourselves. Yeah.

1604
01:58:10,430 --> 01:58:12,950
I've noticed that over the years.
Yes.