1 00:00:08,670 --> 00:00:11,820 Welcome everyone to the latest episode of the Iconic Journey 2 00:00:11,820 --> 00:00:14,730 podcast. I'm Rameez Manohar and I'm 3 00:00:14,730 --> 00:00:18,000 joined today by co-hosts Colin Madden and Kevin Dean. 4 00:00:18,450 --> 00:00:20,880 We have a special treat for our audience today. 5 00:00:21,090 --> 00:00:24,900 We are honored to be interviewing John Coe, himself, the visionary 6 00:00:24,900 --> 00:00:28,620 founder behind the iconic journey. Uh, we're really excited to get 7 00:00:28,620 --> 00:00:32,010 started on this conversation. But prior to doing so, uh, Colin, 8 00:00:32,010 --> 00:00:37,230 Kevin and I will briefly introduce ourselves. Thanks for me. 9 00:00:37,530 --> 00:00:41,640 Uh, Colin Madden I've been on a number of post scripts with John 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,940 on his podcast. Um, I currently work at the 11 00:00:44,940 --> 00:00:47,550 Meridian Group, where I've been for about five years. 12 00:00:48,390 --> 00:00:53,220 Um, I met John probably when I was 2 or 3 years old. 13 00:00:53,370 --> 00:00:55,740 Um, we grew up in the same neighborhood. 14 00:00:55,950 --> 00:01:00,210 Uh, he has two sons. One is my age. One is my brother's age. 15 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:05,190 Uh, so we, you know, growing up in the community would hang out 16 00:01:05,190 --> 00:01:09,630 with his family, go on some trips, uh, on the same swim team. 17 00:01:10,170 --> 00:01:14,550 We had sort of lost contact, you know, when I went to college 18 00:01:14,550 --> 00:01:19,950 and post graduation. And funnily enough, we kind of 19 00:01:19,950 --> 00:01:24,960 reconnected on a. Kind of membership. Online membership. Community. Um. 20 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:30,610 Called the Farnam Street Blog, which is held by Shane Parrish. 21 00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:35,980 Uh, it's kind of. He's an author. He has a podcast and blog and a 22 00:01:35,980 --> 00:01:41,110 membership community kind of circulating on, uh, investing, kind 23 00:01:41,110 --> 00:01:46,090 of thinking better mental models, uh, all kind of surrounding the Charlie 24 00:01:46,090 --> 00:01:52,630 Munger, uh, ethos, more or less. Um, so I kind of joined that 25 00:01:52,630 --> 00:01:56,890 community, searched real estate in Washington, DC amongst the members, 26 00:01:56,890 --> 00:02:00,160 found John, and we kind of reconnected through that. 27 00:02:00,190 --> 00:02:03,580 Uh, so although we had we were living about a half mile away, 28 00:02:03,580 --> 00:02:09,550 we kind of met online again. Uh, and then he asked me to join the, 29 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,520 the postscript and then the membership, uh, iconic journey 30 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,890 online community as well. So. You know, we've been in close 31 00:02:18,890 --> 00:02:22,190 contact for the last three years. I want to say. 32 00:02:24,810 --> 00:02:27,690 Awesome and, uh, excited to be here and, uh, 33 00:02:27,690 --> 00:02:31,830 to dig into John's story a little bit more and into the iconic journey. 34 00:02:32,250 --> 00:02:34,980 Uh, my name is Kevin Dean with Rockbridge Investment Group. 35 00:02:35,010 --> 00:02:38,760 Uh, we do value added multifamily based in the DC area. 36 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,900 Um, I was actually introduced to John by a mutual friend, Peter Hackett, 37 00:02:43,140 --> 00:02:45,780 uh, who had listened to John's podcast a number of times. 38 00:02:45,780 --> 00:02:50,010 And as anybody who knows John, uh, knows, John kind of knows everybody. 39 00:02:50,010 --> 00:02:53,430 So, um, if it wasn't Peter who introduced me, I'm sure it would have 40 00:02:53,430 --> 00:02:57,180 been somebody else at some point. Uh, but yeah, have really enjoyed 41 00:02:57,180 --> 00:03:02,670 being part of the iconic journey, um, group and excited to, uh, 42 00:03:02,970 --> 00:03:07,050 speak to John today. Awesome. And I'm Ramirez. 43 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:11,160 I'm on the asset management team at Jamestown overseeing our D.C. 44 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,830 portfolio. And I met John, I guess, 45 00:03:13,830 --> 00:03:18,270 back in 2016 when he was hosting a career counseling seminar at 46 00:03:18,270 --> 00:03:22,230 the University of Maryland. And John had graciously asked me to 47 00:03:22,230 --> 00:03:25,830 sort of co participate with him. And little did I know that it 48 00:03:25,830 --> 00:03:28,650 would turn into such an incredible and fruitful friendship. 49 00:03:29,220 --> 00:03:32,370 Um, so it's been it's just been an awesome seven years, and I'm 50 00:03:32,370 --> 00:03:34,890 blessed to be a part of everything that John has created here. 51 00:03:34,890 --> 00:03:38,430 And I wanted to, you know, thank you for the opportunity to 52 00:03:38,430 --> 00:03:41,700 participate in something like this. Um, you've changed a lot of lives 53 00:03:41,700 --> 00:03:45,810 and hopefully a lot more to come. Uh, before we jump in, we'd also 54 00:03:45,810 --> 00:03:50,340 like to thank Ray Ritchie for the suggestion here and asking us to, 55 00:03:50,340 --> 00:03:53,250 uh, interview John. Uh, he's put in a lot of time and 56 00:03:53,250 --> 00:03:55,470 effort into the iconic journey, and we thought, um, 57 00:03:55,470 --> 00:03:59,430 it was a great idea and, uh, are really excited to jump in and 58 00:03:59,430 --> 00:04:03,570 hear more from John. So thank you. Right. Uh, so let's jump in, John. 59 00:04:03,570 --> 00:04:05,850 You know, as typical, we we'd love to start with sort 60 00:04:05,850 --> 00:04:09,450 of your origin story and some of your youth and parental influences. 61 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,520 Well, thank you Ramis, Colin and Kevin, I appreciate 62 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:19,440 that very kind introduction. And, uh, yes, it's been a journey. 63 00:04:19,650 --> 00:04:24,630 Uh, we've been now four plus years on the iconic icons of DC Real Estate 64 00:04:24,630 --> 00:04:28,590 podcast, and a little over two and a half years on the iconic journey. 65 00:04:28,590 --> 00:04:32,040 So it's been a lot of fun and I really enjoyed it. 66 00:04:32,670 --> 00:04:36,690 Um, so I grew up, uh, I was born in Detroit, Michigan 67 00:04:36,900 --> 00:04:40,260 and grew up in suburban Detroit, Grosse Pointe, Michigan. 68 00:04:40,890 --> 00:04:44,880 Uh, my parents, my dad grew up also in the Detroit area. 69 00:04:45,630 --> 00:04:49,680 Uh, my mom, uh, actually grew up in western Michigan 70 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,710 and Three Rivers, Michigan. And she, her father traveled 71 00:04:52,950 --> 00:04:59,760 around the country as a salesman. Uh, they my parents met at the jail, 72 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,610 Hudson Company, which is a department store and no 73 00:05:02,610 --> 00:05:06,720 longer exists in downtown Detroit. Uh, they work together there for 74 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:08,280 about five years. And then my mom, 75 00:05:08,280 --> 00:05:13,410 when they got married, she decided to raise me and my my 76 00:05:13,410 --> 00:05:19,440 brother and, uh, my dad continued on working for the Hudson's, uh, 77 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:25,830 retail outfit for 30 plus years. Uh, he led he was the store manager 78 00:05:25,830 --> 00:05:29,340 for the three largest department stores in Detroit, the downtown 79 00:05:29,340 --> 00:05:33,150 Northland and Eastland store. He was also a merchandise manager. 80 00:05:33,420 --> 00:05:41,670 So he being a retail, uh, leader, um, he was involved in large real estate 81 00:05:41,670 --> 00:05:45,480 and is kind of a store manager. So I saw that early on. 82 00:05:45,750 --> 00:05:51,210 And I was also, uh, inspired by the scale of what he did and what, 83 00:05:51,210 --> 00:05:54,720 what retail was all about. So that really interested me a lot. 84 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,170 And then my, my mom was, uh, took care of us at home. 85 00:05:58,890 --> 00:06:00,960 Um, and then she became, when I was in high school, 86 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,580 became a real estate agent. And so she started selling homes. 87 00:06:05,580 --> 00:06:08,520 And all along my parents were interested in real estate, 88 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,420 single family homes, and they started buying them as investment properties. 89 00:06:12,810 --> 00:06:15,420 When I was in junior high school and high school. 90 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:20,790 And watching that was interesting because they were able to to rent the 91 00:06:20,790 --> 00:06:27,690 homes, fix them up, rent them, create value and then sell them eventually. 92 00:06:27,690 --> 00:06:34,170 And so I saw that firsthand as growing up. And and I was intrigued. 93 00:06:34,170 --> 00:06:39,330 But I did not want to interact with, uh, consumers. 94 00:06:39,420 --> 00:06:43,530 And I just I saw some of the hassles they dealt with with that. 95 00:06:43,530 --> 00:06:48,300 And my mother's dealing with with emotion in decision making as 96 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:52,020 opposed to business decision making. So I knew right then that I didn't 97 00:06:52,020 --> 00:06:56,940 want to be in the residential market. So that was interesting. Um. 98 00:06:58,590 --> 00:07:02,670 I really had a good time as a child. My brother and I got along pretty 99 00:07:02,670 --> 00:07:07,410 well. We had fun together. Um, and, uh, I was in public school 100 00:07:07,410 --> 00:07:12,930 throughout, uh, my parents, uh, as they got a little bit older, 101 00:07:12,930 --> 00:07:18,570 my dad left Hudsons and went into, uh, he went to work for a 102 00:07:18,570 --> 00:07:22,620 homebuilder, uh, as on the board. And then he was helping and the 103 00:07:22,620 --> 00:07:26,160 manufactured housing business. He had went into a couple of 104 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,610 ventures. They failed. He got into some financial trouble. 105 00:07:29,610 --> 00:07:34,020 So at the end, uh, they struggled quite a bit and they tended to like a 106 00:07:34,020 --> 00:07:38,490 little bit over the top spending. So I learned some lessons from that. 107 00:07:38,820 --> 00:07:41,610 Uh, try to be a little bit more, you know, 108 00:07:41,730 --> 00:07:47,760 fruitful with my budgeting and etc.. So I went on to the University of 109 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:52,800 Michigan, uh, undergraduate and, uh, go blue national champions 110 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,940 this year, which was great. Um, so I was there for four years 111 00:07:56,940 --> 00:08:01,720 and then. Decided two choices. I could go to North Carolina or 112 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,750 to University of San Francisco in California to graduate school. 113 00:08:04,750 --> 00:08:08,440 And I decided to go out to West, out to California. 114 00:08:08,650 --> 00:08:12,070 So I went to, uh, graduate business school at USF. 115 00:08:12,460 --> 00:08:15,250 Unfortunately, I did not complete my degree, but I had two good 116 00:08:15,250 --> 00:08:19,390 years of experience and actually interned with a company called Amex, 117 00:08:19,390 --> 00:08:24,460 which was a real estate market exchange that was kind of an early, 118 00:08:24,970 --> 00:08:30,130 uh, predecessor of public real estate markets, but it really wasn't public. 119 00:08:30,130 --> 00:08:33,250 And my goal was to write a thesis called The Stock Market for Real 120 00:08:33,250 --> 00:08:37,180 Estate. But that didn't happen. Didn't finish it, I started it. 121 00:08:37,180 --> 00:08:41,350 I got very frustrated because all the response I got from my surveys was, 122 00:08:41,350 --> 00:08:44,200 this doesn't, couldn't or wouldn't exist because 123 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,340 real estate is too exclusive and too individual to be something 124 00:08:48,340 --> 00:08:53,790 that trades like stocks and bonds. So I didn't totally believe that over 125 00:08:53,790 --> 00:08:58,950 time, and the right industry is now demonstrated that you can trade, uh, 126 00:08:58,950 --> 00:09:02,400 securities backed by real estate, but it's backed by companies, 127 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,360 not by properties, per se. But anyway, um, 128 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:11,100 I returned from San Francisco after two years back to Michigan. 129 00:09:12,050 --> 00:09:19,910 And then, uh, I started my, uh, uh, my career, uh, in 1979 with, with 130 00:09:19,910 --> 00:09:24,140 Prudential Insurance Company. Yeah. So you started your career with 131 00:09:24,140 --> 00:09:26,450 Prudential. So what what influenced you to 132 00:09:26,450 --> 00:09:29,660 get into real estate and how did that first opportunity come about? 133 00:09:30,560 --> 00:09:35,870 Well, as I said, uh, my parents were involved and I 134 00:09:35,870 --> 00:09:38,870 was intrigued in college, so I took courses at the University 135 00:09:38,870 --> 00:09:42,290 of Michigan in real estate. They didn't have a big program there, 136 00:09:42,410 --> 00:09:44,870 but one of the professors was very inspiring. 137 00:09:45,590 --> 00:09:48,590 And then when I went on to grad school, uh, that school didn't 138 00:09:48,590 --> 00:09:50,840 have a real estate program. So that's where I focused in my 139 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,350 thesis and my internships. I also talked to as many people 140 00:09:54,350 --> 00:09:56,720 in the industry as I could in San Francisco. 141 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,290 So I met people, I met brokers, I went and met an institutional 142 00:10:00,290 --> 00:10:02,900 investors. I networked quite a bit while I 143 00:10:02,900 --> 00:10:05,870 was there. Uh, that's something that I 144 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,980 don't have a fear of doing is calling people out of the blue. 145 00:10:09,980 --> 00:10:17,090 So which led to my brokerage career, etc.. Um, and marketing. So I. 146 00:10:17,980 --> 00:10:22,330 Dug on my own and met as many people as I possibly could in the industry, 147 00:10:22,330 --> 00:10:27,310 and I was inspired by it and met people that I thought were really. 148 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,600 People that I wanted to do business with someday. 149 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:36,330 So, uh, I decided to go the institutional 150 00:10:36,330 --> 00:10:43,000 route to start with with Prudential. And I was there for about one year. 151 00:10:43,770 --> 00:10:48,210 And the reason is I joined in 1979 and interest rates when I started 152 00:10:48,210 --> 00:10:54,000 were about ten, 10 to 12, 11%. And then they rose within that 153 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,530 year to north of 20%. And Prudential went out of the 154 00:10:58,530 --> 00:11:03,210 market that fall. And we. Then we're only doing acquisitions. 155 00:11:03,940 --> 00:11:09,470 So then I was approached by. Uh, what was what had been Chrysler 156 00:11:09,470 --> 00:11:13,910 Realty and became Abaco Properties, which is a division of Coke 157 00:11:13,910 --> 00:11:17,480 Industries out of Kansas. They acquired Chrysler Realty 158 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:22,640 because Chrysler was in distress in 1979 and had to sell assets, 159 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:28,310 and that asset was their real estate. And so coach took it over with a 160 00:11:28,310 --> 00:11:31,340 guy named George Abloh, who was a partner, and their 161 00:11:31,340 --> 00:11:35,630 goal was to sell dealerships, turn capital and make it happen. 162 00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:42,770 And they did, uh. Uh, they sold several dealerships. 163 00:11:42,770 --> 00:11:46,910 And then we did a big trade. 26 Chrysler dealerships. 164 00:11:47,750 --> 00:11:50,870 For a huge project in New York, suburban New York, which I was 165 00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:56,660 involved in acquisitions for that. And, uh, we, we closed on it was 166 00:11:56,660 --> 00:12:01,160 a trade 1031 exchange. The project was a 1.2, 167 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:06,260 one point 3,000,000 square foot, two building office complex in 168 00:12:06,260 --> 00:12:12,510 Rockland County, New York, called Blue Hill Plaza. It was 20% leased. 169 00:12:12,660 --> 00:12:17,790 It was a bank that did it with us, and it took two years for them 170 00:12:17,790 --> 00:12:20,760 to find a user that bought the entire complex. 171 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,820 And that was Nynex, which was the division of Bell Atlantic, a Bell 172 00:12:23,820 --> 00:12:30,150 Atlantic that covered that part, the New York area and new Jersey, etc.. 173 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:35,770 And I wasn't there at the time when that happened, but I left the firm. 174 00:12:36,450 --> 00:12:40,110 Because I moved to Wichita, Kansas, and I was there for one year, 175 00:12:40,110 --> 00:12:44,760 and it's a pretty parochial town. Growing up in Michigan, uh, 176 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:48,840 but I did meet my wife there, which was probably the best thing 177 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:55,650 that ever happened down there. And, uh, she followed me to Chicago. 178 00:12:56,250 --> 00:13:01,450 When I joined Hobart Development Company. In, uh, in Chicago. 179 00:13:01,450 --> 00:13:04,390 And then I got that opportunity because the former president of 180 00:13:04,390 --> 00:13:09,460 Chrysler Realty was the reason I joined the the entity he went 181 00:13:09,460 --> 00:13:13,600 and became president of, of hallmark and recruited me to come 182 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:19,360 up to Chicago and join him there. So I was in regional mall 183 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:26,290 development for one year. And I was laid off in 1982. 184 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:31,500 Markets were tough. So I didn't know exactly what I do. 185 00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:34,320 But I did start talking to people in the Chicago area quite a bit, 186 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:39,150 and I decided to go into brokerage. Uh, so I went from a salary job 187 00:13:39,150 --> 00:13:44,730 to straight commission and, uh, had a condominium with my wife, 188 00:13:44,730 --> 00:13:47,430 and she was earning income, so we were okay. 189 00:13:47,580 --> 00:13:51,270 And I went ahead and started as an investment salesman in the 190 00:13:51,270 --> 00:13:56,000 suburban Oakbrook office. So I was there for three years in 191 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,800 suburban Chicago brokering deals, and I did every product type. 192 00:14:01,340 --> 00:14:05,090 And, uh, that office was the number one office 193 00:14:05,090 --> 00:14:09,440 in the country until the Tysons Corner office beat us one year. 194 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,980 So we actually were better than the California office where CB 195 00:14:12,980 --> 00:14:16,940 actually started. Uh, so the company I work for was 196 00:14:16,940 --> 00:14:20,390 Coldwell Banker, which was at that time owned by Sears Roebuck. 197 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,650 And then over time, they became a public company or 198 00:14:24,650 --> 00:14:30,300 now known as CBRE. Of course. So that was in the early 1980s. 199 00:14:31,430 --> 00:14:37,250 And then I moved to the Washington, D.C. area after a big commission. 200 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,620 Died. I was in somewhat financial straits 201 00:14:42,620 --> 00:14:46,580 because I had a mortgage payment to make, etc., and I just bought 202 00:14:46,580 --> 00:14:50,480 a house in suburban Chicago. And so I decided, okay, 203 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,030 we're going to have to sell the house and move probably. 204 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,500 So I was recruited by the BF Sol company here in Washington, 205 00:14:57,500 --> 00:15:03,600 DC in mortgage banking. And I moved in 1985. At that point. 206 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,490 So what was the environment like at the time you said you were laid off? 207 00:15:09,490 --> 00:15:13,900 Was it a kind of a systemic issue across the country? So in 19. 208 00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:16,870 More resilient, um, can you dig into that a little bit more? 209 00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:18,730 Let's go back now a little bit in time. 210 00:15:18,730 --> 00:15:22,720 So in 1982, I was laid off from Hobart. 211 00:15:23,170 --> 00:15:28,660 Okay. Before I went to CB 1982. There was a mini recession at 212 00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:32,140 that time, and the markets were a little tough. Um. 213 00:15:32,910 --> 00:15:39,120 You know, this was coming out of the the Paul Volcker crackdown in 1980, 214 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,840 81, uh, where interest rates were up, soaring. 215 00:15:43,590 --> 00:15:46,740 The regional mall business was tough at that time to to do anything 216 00:15:46,740 --> 00:15:49,620 because the numbers were just so difficult to make deals work. 217 00:15:49,740 --> 00:15:53,010 So we were working on mostly on land use issues, 218 00:15:53,010 --> 00:15:58,040 entitlement when I was there. There was one project we were 219 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,410 finishing up at home, Art, and that was it when I was there. 220 00:16:00,410 --> 00:16:03,980 So they just didn't have a need for development person at that time. 221 00:16:03,980 --> 00:16:06,830 And the mall business was really starting to taper down. 222 00:16:07,370 --> 00:16:12,350 So, uh, CB was owned by, by Sears also. 223 00:16:12,350 --> 00:16:15,200 So it's more or less a trade internally that I went over to 224 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,940 CB and it was brokerage. So brokerage straight commission 225 00:16:19,940 --> 00:16:23,420 you have you run your own book. At that point it was a lot less 226 00:16:23,420 --> 00:16:27,500 organized than it is today. So we were kind of on our own, 227 00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:31,070 and I teamed up with people that were leasing and I would help them 228 00:16:31,070 --> 00:16:35,210 with the sale, investment packages, etc. as I said, a big commission 229 00:16:35,210 --> 00:16:39,500 kind of crapped out on me in 1985. And I said, you know, 230 00:16:39,860 --> 00:16:42,230 I'm going to have to look around, find something else. 231 00:16:42,230 --> 00:16:45,920 So I looked both in Chicago, but I spread out nationally, 232 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,520 and I had a couple of friends here in Washington, and they led me to this 233 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,780 opportunity with the BFS oil company. So I was recruited and I just left 234 00:16:53,780 --> 00:17:00,560 CB. I wasn't laid off there in 85. And ironically, in 1985, the markets 235 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:05,480 had turned and things were on fire here in Washington at that time. 236 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,350 I mean, people were building open and construction loans with 237 00:17:09,350 --> 00:17:14,210 no takeouts on office buildings, on retail, uh, on retail. 238 00:17:14,210 --> 00:17:17,720 If you had a grocery anchor grocery lease, you could get a site, 239 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,310 you'd get them down. I mean, 240 00:17:19,310 --> 00:17:24,140 this was the the fastest growth time in Washington was in the mid 1980s. 241 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:29,840 So I came here at a very good time. Markets were strong. Hiring was good. 242 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:35,460 Interest rates were, you know. As I remember, high single digit, 243 00:17:35,460 --> 00:17:39,540 but the numbers penciled, you know, cap rates were, you know, 244 00:17:39,540 --> 00:17:42,540 high single digits as well. They were higher than they were. 245 00:17:42,540 --> 00:17:46,770 You know, recently they're probably cap rates are probably similar now 246 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:52,930 than what they were in the mid 1980s. Uh, the capital markets were a 247 00:17:52,930 --> 00:17:56,770 lot different then. It was basically banks and life 248 00:17:56,770 --> 00:18:00,970 companies and essentials. This is what before the SNL 249 00:18:00,970 --> 00:18:04,870 industry crashed. So the Snells were wild out there. 250 00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:07,870 And so you could get deals done pretty aggressively. 251 00:18:07,870 --> 00:18:11,290 And some of my podcast interviews, Bob Kettler probably talked 252 00:18:11,290 --> 00:18:14,500 about it more than anybody else, where he was able to over finance 253 00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:16,840 some of his land development deals, where he, in essence, 254 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:21,520 got more cash than he needed. He got lines of credit over and above 255 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:27,580 his costs, uh, on deals both on debt and equity. So things were. 256 00:18:28,370 --> 00:18:36,050 People were way over their skis. And in 1990, um, the virtual s 257 00:18:36,050 --> 00:18:41,270 hit the fan and things really went down fast, really quick. 258 00:18:41,270 --> 00:18:45,560 And, uh, so the savings and loan industry crapped out. 259 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:51,410 We had, uh, the RTC emerge taking over most of the bad assets. 260 00:18:51,620 --> 00:18:54,980 Uh, the FDIC took over a lot of the bank bad assets. 261 00:18:54,980 --> 00:18:58,100 And then the life companies had to work out their own issues on the 262 00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:03,080 debt side. And on the equity side. A lot of companies just had to. 263 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:08,520 Roll up. And there was a new innovation called 264 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:15,660 upright that came out about 1991 92. That many companies took advantage 265 00:19:15,660 --> 00:19:18,540 of, including Car America, which was the Oliver car 266 00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:23,430 portfolio here in Washington, as well as Sam Zell forming both 267 00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:27,720 Equity office and Equity Residential. At that time, those were 2 or 3 of 268 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:33,560 the big ones. There are several more. Anyway, so when that happened, 269 00:19:33,770 --> 00:19:37,100 uh, I went on straight commission at small companies. 270 00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:41,270 So I had from 85 to 90, had pretty good years. Did. 271 00:19:41,270 --> 00:19:45,800 Okay. Uh, good production, 91. They said. Nope. 272 00:19:45,980 --> 00:19:49,880 You're going on straight commission. If you want to stay in production, 273 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,760 you want to go into workouts, we'll pay you like one third 274 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,000 what you're earning now. And I could do that. That was. 275 00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:58,670 Those are my two options. I said I'm going to keep trying 276 00:19:58,670 --> 00:20:01,610 to make deals. Fortunately, I found two developers 277 00:20:01,610 --> 00:20:05,240 that were active and I was able to close enough business to earn as 278 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,470 much money as I had the year before. So I was fortunate working 279 00:20:09,470 --> 00:20:16,280 through that year. 91. In 1992, uh, the company sold its 280 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,190 mortgage banking division, the company I worked with, the entity, 281 00:20:19,190 --> 00:20:25,100 the group I worked for to, uh, a division of Legg Mason Real Estate. 282 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,190 Like Mason out of Baltimore, acquired us. 283 00:20:31,070 --> 00:20:34,970 Uh, transmission through a company called Latimer Buck in Philadelphia. 284 00:20:35,810 --> 00:20:38,660 Uh, they were bought first, and then we were bought through 285 00:20:38,660 --> 00:20:42,140 that entity and then became Legg Mason Real Estate Services. 286 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,640 And I was with them from 92 until 2003. 287 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,930 So I continued doing mortgage banking, basically in the same 288 00:20:51,930 --> 00:20:57,360 enterprise through that period. And then in 2003, North Mark 289 00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:02,040 capital came in and bought, uh, all the Legg Mason portfolio. 290 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:07,140 So I went through two corporate mergers for the same entity, 291 00:21:07,140 --> 00:21:11,460 in essence. Um, so throughout the early 90s. 292 00:21:12,370 --> 00:21:17,950 We were recovering, of course, and a lot of really, really huge 293 00:21:17,950 --> 00:21:24,280 fortunes and funds created value coming out of the 1990 debacle, 294 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,480 91 debacle. So several huge funds were created 295 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:33,160 out of that, including Blackstone and and equity residential and office. 296 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,900 And so and a lot of the public, uh, real estate markets came out of that. 297 00:21:38,020 --> 00:21:42,790 And of course, the CMBS market emerged in 1991 92. 298 00:21:43,390 --> 00:21:45,940 And I recently interviewed Ethan Penner, who was one of the 299 00:21:45,940 --> 00:21:48,820 founders of that market. And we talk about that in my 300 00:21:48,820 --> 00:21:53,770 podcast with him in detail of that change and that emergence. 301 00:21:53,890 --> 00:21:58,840 So I started doing deals both with the life companies as well as CMBS. 302 00:21:59,630 --> 00:22:03,980 And, uh, and then also, uh, Kevin Dean's former employer, 303 00:22:03,980 --> 00:22:07,610 Fannie Mae, uh, started getting very active in the multifamily 304 00:22:07,610 --> 00:22:11,870 space then with their dust program. And we we had a relationship 305 00:22:11,870 --> 00:22:14,900 with Freddie Mac to do their seller servicer relations. 306 00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:19,160 So we started doing more multifamily a lot more in the 1990s and of the 307 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,660 2000 through those relationships. So that's what I was doing, 308 00:22:23,660 --> 00:22:29,270 mostly debt all the way through 2003. Uh. And then. 309 00:22:30,090 --> 00:22:34,620 You know, for, uh, I was recruited by Ackman Ziff, a New 310 00:22:34,620 --> 00:22:39,500 York based mortgage brokerage firm. To lead the office here in 311 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:43,220 Washington. And I did that for two years. 312 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:49,550 And, uh. You know, through 2006 when I then, 313 00:22:50,330 --> 00:22:56,390 uh, we decided to part ways due to, uh, primarily lack of support and, 314 00:22:56,390 --> 00:23:00,080 you know, a few things that we didn't agree on. 315 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,920 So I left, and then I joined, uh, Concord Eastridge, 316 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,240 a development company, and started being as a financial person for them. 317 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:13,400 And we looked at a lot of land deals, both in Florida and then up here. 318 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:18,470 And then we also were involved in, uh, university real estate. 319 00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:22,640 So we were working with colleges and doing, uh, fee development 320 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,840 work on campuses and also raising capital through the public equity, 321 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,800 the public markets and bond raisings and that. So I was involved in that. 322 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,460 And then we also did, uh, tried to acquire a couple of assets. 323 00:23:34,460 --> 00:23:39,590 And then 2008 hit and the capital markets went almost 324 00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:43,700 disappeared at that point. And so things got really dicey. 325 00:23:43,790 --> 00:23:51,090 So I stayed with them until, oh nine. And then went back to, uh. Uh. 326 00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:58,270 Uh, actually, uh, I went to, uh, the cattle business. 327 00:23:58,450 --> 00:24:00,850 Uh, actually, no, I should take that back for one year. 328 00:24:00,850 --> 00:24:04,840 I, uh, joined up with two former Chelsea Smith executives, 329 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:10,150 and we did advisory work 2010, struggling through the emergence 330 00:24:10,150 --> 00:24:15,160 back from the markets of oh eight. And then in 2011, I joined, uh, 331 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,580 two guys in Baltimore, CGA capital. We were doing credit tenant 332 00:24:18,580 --> 00:24:21,040 lease financing. So I was involved in that for a 333 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:25,990 couple of years. Uh, and then real estate markets 334 00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:28,180 came back. Instead of just doing settles, 335 00:24:28,180 --> 00:24:31,240 I decided to get back into doing regular real estate again. 336 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,500 So I joined two other guys, Serious Capital, and we started looking at 337 00:24:35,770 --> 00:24:40,900 both investing and advisory work, uh, in what I had done before in 338 00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:45,100 mortgage banking and, and equity involvement as well raise capital 339 00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:48,250 for people, uh, debt and equity. We did some workouts, 340 00:24:48,250 --> 00:24:53,620 kind of a mixed bag of things. And then in 2015, I decided to start 341 00:24:53,620 --> 00:24:57,490 my own firm because those guys left and joined separate companies. 342 00:24:58,030 --> 00:25:02,440 And so I started my own company in 2015, started doing advisory 343 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:08,920 work for, uh, small companies. Uh, had 3 or 4 clients, did uh, 344 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:13,390 for fee based, uh, raised capital for several people on 345 00:25:13,390 --> 00:25:21,550 apartments and office and retail. And from 2015 through 19 and then I 346 00:25:21,550 --> 00:25:29,110 started the podcast in 2019 and uh, uh, started also a career counseling 347 00:25:29,230 --> 00:25:33,190 effort at Remy's talked about earlier University of Maryland and George 348 00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:37,240 Mason University, and did some advisory work and career counseling. 349 00:25:37,330 --> 00:25:40,510 And then when the podcast started, I decided, okay, I'm going to 350 00:25:40,510 --> 00:25:44,410 start paying it forward now. So I've been focusing now on, uh, 351 00:25:44,410 --> 00:25:48,130 helping young people in the industry. So that's a long. 352 00:25:49,050 --> 00:25:53,640 Description of what I've been doing for the last, say, 15, 20 years. 353 00:25:54,650 --> 00:25:59,270 Any other questions now? Yeah. So this question kind of 354 00:25:59,270 --> 00:26:03,260 encompasses maybe the whole career, but your career has spanned both 355 00:26:03,260 --> 00:26:07,910 the highs and lows of the industry. Um, going back to the SNL crisis in 356 00:26:07,910 --> 00:26:13,400 the late 80s, early 90s, the.com bubble in early 2000, the GFC and, 357 00:26:13,970 --> 00:26:18,440 you know, zero 6 to 0 eight. Um, and more recently, the Covid 358 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,920 pandemic and its ripple effects. What are some lessons you've 359 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,710 learned going through these major economic shifts? 360 00:26:25,310 --> 00:26:29,420 Um, did you have to, you know, pivot your career plan, 361 00:26:29,420 --> 00:26:34,120 kind of rebrand? Uh. What you were, as you know, 362 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:39,940 to the markets, uh, retool anything like that, just kind of dig into 363 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,510 what you saw in the market during those downtimes and how you kind 364 00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:48,250 of adjusted to those times. Well, I'll have to say that over, 365 00:26:48,250 --> 00:26:51,820 over the years. Uh, I matured quite a bit. 366 00:26:52,270 --> 00:26:56,600 So I'll just say that. Uh, the first time I was laid 367 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:03,140 off in 1982, I was just shocked. It was just like a stunning blow. 368 00:27:03,860 --> 00:27:06,320 Uh, particularly since the president of the company was the 369 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,470 guy that brought me in, and. But it just happened that the 370 00:27:09,470 --> 00:27:11,990 markets were such. And I was one of five people 371 00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:14,870 that were laid off. So it was it was it was a 372 00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:18,680 stunning blow. Um, and then I made a change and 373 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:25,130 adapted fairly quickly, but, um, where, where I was. 374 00:27:25,850 --> 00:27:29,690 Over time, I realized that, you know, I'm going to have to do it on my own. 375 00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:31,880 And I learned that in the brokerage business. 376 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,940 And then getting into the mortgage banking, 377 00:27:34,940 --> 00:27:39,830 I stabilized myself with a BFS all company and then in with like Mason. 378 00:27:39,830 --> 00:27:45,080 So I was there for 19 years and one entity, um, I learned the mortgage 379 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,170 banking business, and that's where I established most of my relationships 380 00:27:48,170 --> 00:27:54,740 with Uli and other organizations and was involved in a lot of third 381 00:27:54,740 --> 00:27:59,240 party activity beyond just that to to generate business and learn, 382 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,020 build relationships. Most of the podcast guests I've had 383 00:28:03,020 --> 00:28:06,440 were built during those 19 years, those relationships I built over 384 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,670 that time. Um, and then I shifted, uh, 385 00:28:10,970 --> 00:28:14,930 because I wanted to try something new in mortgage banking and 386 00:28:14,930 --> 00:28:19,190 mortgage brokerage and then into the development business and then, 387 00:28:19,970 --> 00:28:24,260 uh, kettles. And so I kind of dabbled a bit from. 388 00:28:24,910 --> 00:28:31,510 2004 until 2015. For about ten years did kind of 389 00:28:31,510 --> 00:28:33,790 plugged in and plugged out of a lot of things. 390 00:28:33,790 --> 00:28:38,560 And I will say that, um, I did not do as much due diligence on some 391 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,400 of those moves that I should have. And what a piece of advice I'd 392 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,760 give to people is when you're when you're jumping into new situations, 393 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,300 spend a little time getting into the backgrounds of the people 394 00:28:49,300 --> 00:28:53,530 you're going to do business with, understand how they think about 395 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,430 making decisions on doing deals and how they structure them. 396 00:28:58,090 --> 00:29:01,660 Um, I will say I learned some tough lessons along that ten year 397 00:29:01,660 --> 00:29:06,310 run because I had been somewhat insulated with the with the mortgage 398 00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:09,940 banking industry, certainly had a lot of dealings with difficult 399 00:29:09,940 --> 00:29:14,800 people over the times, but not where my paycheck was coming from. 400 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,440 Typically, it was usually in business. 401 00:29:18,650 --> 00:29:21,860 Doing the, you know, entrepreneurial things. 402 00:29:21,860 --> 00:29:26,630 I learned quite a bit about people. A lot more than I hadn't had 403 00:29:26,630 --> 00:29:30,440 learned before. So I would say that, you know, 404 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,910 build cushion in your personal situation. Uh. 405 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:40,770 Be extra careful in your due diligence about people. 406 00:29:41,340 --> 00:29:44,580 Uh, be extremely detailed in your underwriting of people. 407 00:29:44,580 --> 00:29:47,880 You're doing business not only the sponsorship, but, uh, 408 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,020 the entities, the investment groups that you're dealing with as well. 409 00:29:52,020 --> 00:29:53,970 Are they going to be viable long term? 410 00:29:54,810 --> 00:29:59,130 Uh, check reputations, look at their background, and then, 411 00:29:59,130 --> 00:30:03,390 bottom line, go with your instincts. Once you're confident, you know, 412 00:30:03,390 --> 00:30:07,350 in the marketplace. And don't hesitate to take chips 413 00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:11,160 off the table if you sense that a change is imminent and you 414 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,860 have an advantage, that's the final thing I'll say. 415 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,040 As you, uh, kind of reflect on some of the downturns. 416 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,850 Where do you think we are in this cycle? Um, do you think we're still. 417 00:30:25,830 --> 00:30:27,810 Trending downwards? Or do you think, you know, with 418 00:30:27,810 --> 00:30:32,520 the latest messaging from the fed, do you think we're kind of seeing 419 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,480 a light at the end of the tunnel? Um, and, you know, 420 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,440 advice to the listeners and to the US three co-hosts on the call. 421 00:30:41,310 --> 00:30:46,170 Um, would you say batten down the hatches right now or or kind 422 00:30:46,170 --> 00:30:48,240 of what's your perspective on everything going on? 423 00:30:49,010 --> 00:30:54,110 In real estate in today's world. Relating to past experiences. 424 00:30:54,110 --> 00:30:57,830 You know, this is a combination of a lot of different downturns. 425 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,790 I don't think it's pandemic like certainly I think we're it's a 426 00:31:01,790 --> 00:31:04,640 different type of thing, but it's kind of a little bit of 427 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:11,410 a blend of a demand issue. Uh, and a capital markets issue. 428 00:31:11,410 --> 00:31:15,400 So the capital markets, we went completely out in oh eight. 429 00:31:16,490 --> 00:31:20,300 Uh, to the point where the fed wasn't even sure they were going to. 430 00:31:20,330 --> 00:31:26,120 You know, we were able to have banks operate. We're now nowhere near that. 431 00:31:26,790 --> 00:31:31,680 But, uh, we have international debt right now at all time highs 432 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:37,440 because of bailing out the pandemic. So who knows what that means the 433 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,340 long term. Uh, but as far as the immediate 434 00:31:41,340 --> 00:31:48,240 future, it feels kind of like 1991, 92, in a way, in that. 435 00:31:49,570 --> 00:31:54,730 Prices are, you know, certain asset values are dropping precipitously, 436 00:31:54,730 --> 00:31:58,210 including downtown office buildings here in Washington. 437 00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:02,590 Um, but what's interesting is the retail market has stayed pretty 438 00:32:02,590 --> 00:32:07,120 strong, especially particularly the grocery anchored retail and and, 439 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,510 you know, consumer demand. So, you know, 440 00:32:10,510 --> 00:32:14,680 it's not quite the same. It's not a desperation situation 441 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,910 for all product types. One area that I think might be 442 00:32:18,910 --> 00:32:22,300 an oversupply issue, and it often happens in that and 443 00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:26,390 that's in the multifamily space. And the way deals were under it 444 00:32:26,390 --> 00:32:30,620 in multifamily. Back, you know, just a few years 445 00:32:30,620 --> 00:32:34,850 ago during the pandemic and before very aggressive and we're interest 446 00:32:34,850 --> 00:32:39,020 rates are now there's going to have to be a resizing of structuring 447 00:32:39,020 --> 00:32:44,060 and etc. I think in that space, which is going to have a cataclysmic 448 00:32:44,060 --> 00:32:46,910 effect to some developers and operators that have been. 449 00:32:47,610 --> 00:32:50,730 Making assumptions a little more aggressively in the past. 450 00:32:50,730 --> 00:32:53,760 So there's going to be opportunity, I think, for people with dry 451 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:58,650 powder this year, both in the office and the multifamily space, 452 00:32:58,650 --> 00:33:04,110 I think that you're going to see, uh. Repositioning of assets. 453 00:33:04,110 --> 00:33:07,350 A lot of that. Um, maybe even demolition of 454 00:33:07,350 --> 00:33:13,020 property. Um. A lot of rethinking on some 455 00:33:13,020 --> 00:33:17,550 product types, but other product types like data centers, you know, 456 00:33:17,550 --> 00:33:23,100 uh, life science office, maybe, um, industrial continue to go 457 00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:26,850 strong and there's still pretty good demand for it. 458 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:32,670 So it's a unique market in that there's some. 459 00:33:33,950 --> 00:33:37,550 Things in the past that rhyme, but I think it's a little different. 460 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,020 Mhm. Okay. Just before Covid you spent some 461 00:33:42,020 --> 00:33:45,380 time with the clean energy financing platform called Clean 462 00:33:45,380 --> 00:33:49,370 Fund Commercial Pace Capital. Uh I think the market as it is C 463 00:33:49,370 --> 00:33:51,950 pace. Uh that's an interesting shift 464 00:33:51,950 --> 00:33:54,470 when you're working on traditionally in your career. 465 00:33:54,710 --> 00:33:58,400 Um, and you kind of focus on the energy side of things. 466 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,830 What was the catalyst behind that transition? 467 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:07,880 Well, uh, I learned about it. Uh, I got a call from somebody 468 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,290 that wanted to talk about it. I. I dug in a little bit, 469 00:34:12,620 --> 00:34:16,250 and I thought it was an interesting capital structure to address the 470 00:34:16,250 --> 00:34:21,530 clean energy demands and things that are the requirements coming today. 471 00:34:21,590 --> 00:34:26,840 The way it's structured is it's like a ground lease, uh, and or a tax, 472 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,980 really real estate tax. So it's superior to all other debt. 473 00:34:31,310 --> 00:34:35,810 I dug into it a bit, uh, developed a relationship with the guys. 474 00:34:35,810 --> 00:34:40,280 We we quoted a lot of business. I never got a deal done, honestly, 475 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,460 but I learned quite a bit about it. And now there's a lot more 476 00:34:43,460 --> 00:34:45,920 activity because there's more acceptance in the marketplace. 477 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,340 So I was early on just digging into it to learn. 478 00:34:50,270 --> 00:34:53,330 Um, and it was just another tool in the toolbox, 479 00:34:53,330 --> 00:34:57,560 more or less as far as getting a transaction done and to open a 480 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:02,270 door to offer something a little different to the mortgage banking 481 00:35:02,270 --> 00:35:11,200 community as well. At the time. So, John, you've, uh, 482 00:35:11,740 --> 00:35:16,150 you've had a ton of different experiences across many different, 483 00:35:16,150 --> 00:35:18,790 uh, fields within real estate, institutional investing, 484 00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:23,140 development, brokerage, mortgage banking, uh, space even. 485 00:35:23,770 --> 00:35:27,460 Um, this is kind of a loaded question, so feel free to answer 486 00:35:27,460 --> 00:35:30,520 it with as many, uh, pieces of advice as possible. 487 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,180 But if you could distill down, you know, all that you've learned 488 00:35:34,180 --> 00:35:37,270 over this 45 year career, which I know is difficult to do. 489 00:35:37,300 --> 00:35:42,010 Are there any key lessons? Maybe 2 or 3, um, that stick out to 490 00:35:42,010 --> 00:35:45,280 you that are worth pointing out, sort of to maybe our, our, uh, 491 00:35:45,580 --> 00:35:48,580 younger listeners, um, including us on the phone here. 492 00:35:50,590 --> 00:35:52,690 Yes, Kevin. Thank you. Uh, 493 00:35:52,960 --> 00:36:00,130 there are three that I'll mention. And, uh, this is also, you know, 494 00:36:00,130 --> 00:36:02,470 reinforced by my other podcast guests. 495 00:36:02,470 --> 00:36:06,610 Most of them have pretty much agree with what, with these three things. 496 00:36:06,610 --> 00:36:09,310 And I've learned that also by interviewing so many different 497 00:36:09,310 --> 00:36:11,920 people. But number one is building long 498 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:17,350 lasting relationships with clients, partners, colleagues and customers. 499 00:36:17,740 --> 00:36:22,270 So, uh, that's something I learned, actually, when I was in graduate 500 00:36:22,270 --> 00:36:26,980 school starting just networking. And I read a book called What 501 00:36:26,980 --> 00:36:31,300 Color Is Your Parachute? When I was in college by Richard 502 00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:33,580 Bolles. And one of the things he talks about 503 00:36:33,580 --> 00:36:38,650 is get out and talk to people. Just get set up 15, 20 minute 504 00:36:38,650 --> 00:36:43,480 conversations if you're curious about what they're doing and to learn. 505 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:49,120 So I did that as early as my college years and just kept doing that. 506 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,020 And just to get to to know people and who they were. 507 00:36:53,020 --> 00:36:57,400 And I kept, you know, building that network as best I could 508 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:02,020 in each and each market I was in. And so that was that's number one. 509 00:37:02,020 --> 00:37:06,540 And it's with everybody, not just. People you're curious about, but all 510 00:37:06,540 --> 00:37:10,410 the all the people you deal with. And in our in mortgage banking, 511 00:37:10,650 --> 00:37:15,300 there's, you know, there's attorneys, there's title companies, there's, 512 00:37:15,390 --> 00:37:20,100 uh, clients, there's investors, there's, you know, equity investors, 513 00:37:20,100 --> 00:37:24,360 lenders, etc. and then all the people within each of these organizations, 514 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,710 you want to you want to just build these relationships and, and, uh, 515 00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:32,790 stay in touch and work with them. Number two is always be of 516 00:37:32,790 --> 00:37:38,370 service and have that attitude. So, uh, try and be more outward 517 00:37:38,370 --> 00:37:42,420 and less for your own good. Try and do things with you. 518 00:37:42,420 --> 00:37:45,030 Know what your client needs. Look for other people. 519 00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:48,270 When you're in communication with others, try and listen carefully as 520 00:37:48,270 --> 00:37:52,230 to what their what their mission is, and try and solve that mission 521 00:37:52,230 --> 00:37:55,830 as long as it aligns with you creating a win win. 522 00:37:56,660 --> 00:37:59,870 With you and that other person, or with a teams, you know, 523 00:37:59,870 --> 00:38:04,070 try and find out the win that everybody has in a team so that 524 00:38:04,070 --> 00:38:08,730 that's an important thing. And then part of that, of course, 525 00:38:08,730 --> 00:38:12,570 is listening, listening to needs. So that's the third one. 526 00:38:12,570 --> 00:38:17,880 Just make sure you spend more time listening than you talk if you can. 527 00:38:20,910 --> 00:38:23,670 Those are the three lessons. Those are great. 528 00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:27,510 And I love those because, you know, real estate is such a 529 00:38:28,020 --> 00:38:31,710 relationship based business. And all those answers kind of 530 00:38:31,710 --> 00:38:34,590 pertain to that. Um, but it's really applicable 531 00:38:34,590 --> 00:38:38,460 across any industry. Um, but successful if you can 532 00:38:38,460 --> 00:38:42,450 stick to those three principles consistently. Um, yeah. 533 00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:46,350 I feel like you'll have you'll have a successful, fulfilling career, 534 00:38:46,350 --> 00:38:51,360 which, um, you clearly have had. So with that, you mentioned in 535 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:56,700 your second kind of lesson, just, um, the importance of service in 536 00:38:56,700 --> 00:38:59,130 the last ten or so years, you've dedicated a ton of time 537 00:38:59,130 --> 00:39:03,120 to consulting with students, offering career advice. 538 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,850 Uh, you've even spent time at George Mason and at the 539 00:39:05,850 --> 00:39:10,560 University of Maryland. Um, what sort of inspired you to get 540 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:15,120 involved in the academic community? Um, and with that, 541 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,060 was that a precursor, in a way, to what you're now doing with the 542 00:39:18,060 --> 00:39:23,690 iconic journey? Exactly right. And the inspiration was when I was in 543 00:39:23,690 --> 00:39:29,960 college, I wish I had had some senior people coming to meet with me, uh, 544 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:35,090 to talk about the industry and help me guide through my career early on. 545 00:39:35,810 --> 00:39:38,450 Um, and again, that book that I mentioned earlier, 546 00:39:38,630 --> 00:39:42,590 what color is your parachute? You know, it's more of a 547 00:39:42,590 --> 00:39:45,500 self-help type of thing for that. But I said, you know, I, 548 00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:50,240 I'd like to help students think it through a little bit. 549 00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:56,150 And it was also inspired by the Uli Urban Land Institute's uh, 550 00:39:56,150 --> 00:40:00,920 Mentor Program mentorship program, which I had been involved in for 551 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,430 16 years up until the pandemic started in 2020. 552 00:40:04,430 --> 00:40:11,000 So 2004, when I was at the company, I, I started getting very active with 553 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,200 Uli is on the executive committee, etc., and I still on the 554 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:20,390 advisory board. And. I, uh, uh, 555 00:40:20,390 --> 00:40:25,760 was on that mentorship group and that's a group of five people or six 556 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:31,430 young people that I met with once a month and learned that, you know, 557 00:40:31,430 --> 00:40:35,360 they're looking for guidance. So I developed a curriculum, 558 00:40:35,810 --> 00:40:41,480 and it's really a two hour thing that I met with each student individually. 559 00:40:41,930 --> 00:40:45,770 And then they had to build their own 3 to 5 year plan. 560 00:40:45,770 --> 00:40:50,360 So, uh, I helped that and did that with 561 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:55,730 probably 30 or 40 students at each university in two separate semesters. 562 00:40:56,570 --> 00:40:59,330 Um, for budgetary reasons, they decided not to continue the 563 00:40:59,330 --> 00:41:03,940 programs, but, uh. That was my inspiration, 564 00:41:03,940 --> 00:41:09,670 frankly. And, uh, when, uh. You know, 565 00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:13,660 I started this career counseling. I took my curriculum from that 566 00:41:13,660 --> 00:41:15,940 and started meeting with people individually. 567 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,760 Uh, posted my website and said that I would do that and then also, uh, 568 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:27,190 started listening to podcasts. And then in 2019, I decided to start 569 00:41:27,190 --> 00:41:30,970 one because I hadn't heard one about the Washington, DC area market. 570 00:41:30,970 --> 00:41:35,710 And I knew that I had a lot of contacts, so I figured I could get at 571 00:41:35,710 --> 00:41:40,840 least 5 or 6 started with my friends. And that's how the icon's podcast got 572 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:45,790 up and running. Yeah. That's awesome. Um, and you've contributed a lot to 573 00:41:45,790 --> 00:41:49,660 the academic community and to young professionals across our region. 574 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,400 And that topic segways well into the iconic journey, which has become 575 00:41:54,580 --> 00:41:58,240 a successful platform that you've created to mentor and educate 576 00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:01,660 really anyone in real estate. Uh, what was the inspiration 577 00:42:01,660 --> 00:42:04,300 behind the creation of the iconic journey and sort of how 578 00:42:04,300 --> 00:42:07,720 did that vision come about? Well, you know, 579 00:42:07,720 --> 00:42:13,630 the podcast started in 2019. The pandemic hit us in March of 2020, 580 00:42:14,230 --> 00:42:20,380 and I was only probably about ten, 15 episodes in at that point. 581 00:42:20,950 --> 00:42:26,080 And, um, I'll never forget, I was interviewing Spencer Levy that week, 582 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,410 and he and I, we did three. He didn't want to do three short 583 00:42:29,410 --> 00:42:33,610 episodes, which I did with him, and I asked him about what was 584 00:42:33,610 --> 00:42:37,720 happening in China and then in Seattle, Washington, I think is where 585 00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:42,280 it first hit, where I think some seniors housing thing or senior. 586 00:42:42,940 --> 00:42:45,250 I think it was a cruise or something that had all these 587 00:42:45,250 --> 00:42:48,850 people that were sick. And he said, you know, 588 00:42:48,850 --> 00:42:52,210 we're in for a big change. It looks like. And he was right. 589 00:42:53,150 --> 00:42:56,780 Uh, so then, you know, I kept doing the podcast and I 590 00:42:56,780 --> 00:43:01,280 said to myself, you know, and my mentor group stopped more or 591 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,310 less because we had to decide whether we were going to meet together 592 00:43:04,310 --> 00:43:08,210 or not or do everything virtual. And we decided, you know, 593 00:43:08,210 --> 00:43:12,530 we'd do a hybrid of that. And I said, you know, I think we 594 00:43:12,530 --> 00:43:17,180 could get together sometime. So by 2021, when things started 595 00:43:18,110 --> 00:43:22,100 thawing a bit as far as the freeze out, I said, let's do something. 596 00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:27,960 Let's start bringing people together. So actually, Colin and I kind of 597 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:32,460 came together with the idea, um, to do this, and I started 598 00:43:32,460 --> 00:43:36,150 researching what community groups we could hook up with. 599 00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:40,500 And I used a circle software to build this community. 600 00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:46,170 And we start I started recruiting former mentees from Yulee and some of 601 00:43:46,170 --> 00:43:50,880 my clients from the George Mason and University of Maryland days, 602 00:43:51,270 --> 00:43:55,260 and we got we got started with about ten early members, and Kevin was 603 00:43:55,260 --> 00:44:00,120 one of them. He got referred to me. It's the three of you were, I think, 604 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:05,010 early members. Of the community. And since then, 605 00:44:05,010 --> 00:44:08,880 we've grown it up to it looks like now we're north of 70 members. 606 00:44:09,180 --> 00:44:12,810 We have members, uh, you have a member in Amsterdam. 607 00:44:12,810 --> 00:44:16,650 We have a member in in Canada, we have a couple of members in 608 00:44:16,650 --> 00:44:18,600 California. We have some, you know, 609 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,470 so we're spread out not not only nationally but internationally. 610 00:44:23,010 --> 00:44:27,150 So which is kind of cool. And it's really grown as an 611 00:44:27,150 --> 00:44:30,150 online platform. But also we do tours, 612 00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:35,820 try to do a tour a month on average, and we try to do, uh, 613 00:44:36,030 --> 00:44:39,480 at least one online event a month as well, either don't ask 614 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:44,570 me anything or a case study. So what do you guys think about 615 00:44:44,570 --> 00:44:51,280 the platform? Yeah, I can certainly jump in here. 616 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,730 I think, you know, the the most impactful component 617 00:44:54,730 --> 00:44:57,970 to me has been the live tours. Um, you know, 618 00:44:57,970 --> 00:45:01,270 it gives me an opportunity to sort of touch and feel the assets. 619 00:45:01,270 --> 00:45:05,980 And I think actually walking projects, it tells the story in 620 00:45:05,980 --> 00:45:09,100 a way that photos and other digital resources just can't. 621 00:45:09,610 --> 00:45:12,730 Um, so I appreciate having the opportunity to really speak with, 622 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,190 you know, people who have knowledge of the project and really 623 00:45:15,190 --> 00:45:17,950 learning about it, you know, with the hands on experience. 624 00:45:18,580 --> 00:45:20,950 Um, you know, perhaps the most eye opening one for 625 00:45:20,950 --> 00:45:25,300 me was when we toured the Ark on Mississippi Avenue in Ward eight. 626 00:45:26,050 --> 00:45:31,570 Um, the Arc stands for Town Hall, education, Arts, recreation, Campus. 627 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,320 And it really provides so many events and programs for the 628 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,590 benefit of the community. Uh, and when we were there, it was 629 00:45:38,590 --> 00:45:41,920 really great to just see, you know, kids from the community really just 630 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,310 enjoying the facilities and taking advantage of the resources there. 631 00:45:45,940 --> 00:45:49,240 Uh, and there's no telling where this resource might take people. 632 00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:52,120 Um, there's going to be a lot of success stories that come out as 633 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,120 a result of the arc. Uh, and so if there's one key 634 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,210 takeaway I have from that project, it's that, you know, 635 00:45:58,210 --> 00:46:01,600 not every project is going to be a huge financial home run. 636 00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:05,890 Some projects are really impactful in other ways, and even if that 637 00:46:05,890 --> 00:46:10,120 takes decades to realize it. Um, so I think the long term vision 638 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,660 behind that project was just fascinating, and I really enjoyed 639 00:46:13,660 --> 00:46:16,540 seeing how it all comes together and really benefits the community. 640 00:46:18,450 --> 00:46:24,180 Just to add to that, um. That property was built by, uh, 641 00:46:24,180 --> 00:46:29,430 Chris Smith, the of the, uh, W.C. Smith Companies, who developed 642 00:46:29,430 --> 00:46:33,150 a subdivision across the street from it and work to deal with the 643 00:46:33,150 --> 00:46:36,750 district government and also the federal government for that land. 644 00:46:36,750 --> 00:46:41,700 So it's a ground leased, uh, parcel. And he built now three different 645 00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:44,340 structures. And the fourth one is planned on 646 00:46:44,340 --> 00:46:48,270 the site. Uh, and these are all non-profit 647 00:46:49,530 --> 00:46:53,100 structure. It's a non-profit entity that has 648 00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:59,880 at least 15, uh, quote unquote, tenants that are non-profits that 649 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:05,250 provide services to the community. Uh, and they're pretty wide ranging. 650 00:47:05,250 --> 00:47:08,880 So it's a very special project I saw at first back in. 651 00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:15,280 About 2013 when they first delivered. And I was just just overwhelmed 652 00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,750 with how cool it was. So I wanted to make sure that the 653 00:47:19,750 --> 00:47:23,890 community had a chance to see it. Uh, one of the features in that 654 00:47:24,430 --> 00:47:30,220 and that building is that, uh, Chris has secured this automaton 655 00:47:30,790 --> 00:47:34,930 of Frederick Douglass. Yeah. And so Frederick Douglass 656 00:47:34,930 --> 00:47:39,700 himself walks out on stage. He's like a robot and gives speeches. 657 00:47:39,700 --> 00:47:42,820 And it's all scripted. It's it's fantastic. Yeah. 658 00:47:42,820 --> 00:47:46,210 It was. Really good. Yeah. Very realistic. Yeah. 659 00:47:46,210 --> 00:47:49,270 If there's ever a project that we should do another tour of sort of 660 00:47:49,270 --> 00:47:52,750 a double tour, I think that would be the one. It's a pretty special. 661 00:47:52,750 --> 00:48:00,310 Property. No question. What do you think, Kevin? Yeah. 662 00:48:00,310 --> 00:48:04,780 I mean, there's so many events. Ask me any things, mastermind 663 00:48:04,780 --> 00:48:08,830 groups that we could speak to. I'll hit on two real quick. Uh, one. 664 00:48:09,310 --> 00:48:11,350 Um, we've got a few different mastermind 665 00:48:11,350 --> 00:48:14,710 groups within the community. Um, which is just a small group 666 00:48:14,710 --> 00:48:20,350 of people who kind of gather on a regular basis to, um, you know, 667 00:48:20,350 --> 00:48:24,220 discuss a certain topic. Um, so for me, I'm in, 668 00:48:24,220 --> 00:48:28,270 in a finance mastermind. Um, and it's been really 669 00:48:28,270 --> 00:48:32,890 beneficial to me personally. Um, you know, my company is pretty 670 00:48:32,890 --> 00:48:36,760 small, and we are, you know, an entrepreneurial company. 671 00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:42,760 So getting to kind of mix in with some larger, uh, with some, you know, 672 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:47,200 some other guys in the group who work at larger companies, um, with more of 673 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,800 like an institutional background has just been really helpful for 674 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,220 me to get a better perspective on real estate in general, 675 00:48:54,220 --> 00:48:57,610 different ways of looking at things, ways to finance deals that, 676 00:48:57,610 --> 00:49:00,760 that sort of thing. Um, so the masterminds have been. 677 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:05,560 He just for my own, you know, personal growth in my business. 678 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:09,010 And then the second thing I would hit on is just the tours I 679 00:49:09,010 --> 00:49:12,130 always look forward to the most, if I'm honest, just getting to see 680 00:49:12,130 --> 00:49:17,050 some of these Class-A type of assets with really unique stories and, and, 681 00:49:17,530 --> 00:49:21,550 um, you know, backgrounds for how they got to the point of actually 682 00:49:21,550 --> 00:49:25,150 delivering and, uh, getting to, you know, pick the brain of the 683 00:49:25,150 --> 00:49:29,530 developer or the owner of the asset, um, has also been extremely 684 00:49:29,530 --> 00:49:35,260 educational and inspiring, honestly, just to see what can be done in, 685 00:49:35,260 --> 00:49:39,010 in the real estate space. So, um, can't, you know, 686 00:49:39,010 --> 00:49:42,520 brag enough on this community and just how great it's been. 687 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,450 But those are some of the highlights. Among those tours, Kevin, 688 00:49:46,450 --> 00:49:51,160 which were your favorites and why? There's a ton one I would the one 689 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,470 that sticks out, I would say, was the tour of Reston Town 690 00:49:53,470 --> 00:49:57,370 Center with Ray Ritchey of Boston Properties for a couple of reasons. 691 00:49:57,370 --> 00:50:00,250 One, it was just so big. And to get his, you know, 692 00:50:00,250 --> 00:50:05,140 he's got a ton of experience and just hearing stories of, um, you know. 693 00:50:05,850 --> 00:50:09,690 That property and, uh, just, you know, what it was and what 694 00:50:09,690 --> 00:50:14,340 it is now and also future plans. We also got to go up to the top of 695 00:50:14,340 --> 00:50:18,660 the Fannie Mae building, um, while it was still under construction, 696 00:50:18,660 --> 00:50:21,120 which was also cool, just given I used to work at Fannie Mae. 697 00:50:21,780 --> 00:50:24,780 Um, so I would say that one probably sticks out out of everything. 698 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:32,340 That's great. Colin. You all add a sort of a mirror? 699 00:50:32,340 --> 00:50:34,560 What Kevin said. Uh, 700 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:39,090 I think the group is intimate enough. 70 is a good, good number, um, 701 00:50:40,140 --> 00:50:43,530 where you can meet a lot of the people, and they're all everyone's 702 00:50:43,530 --> 00:50:46,440 kind of on the same page. So you have like minded individuals, 703 00:50:46,890 --> 00:50:51,980 typically very ambitious. Uh. And then you have a, you know, 704 00:50:51,980 --> 00:50:56,500 very wide ranging. Uh, group with multiple 705 00:50:56,500 --> 00:51:00,670 multifaceted experiences. Um, so we're in the roomies and I 706 00:51:00,670 --> 00:51:03,790 are in the future of real estate, and one member of the group is an 707 00:51:03,790 --> 00:51:07,300 art curator based in California. So just hearing his stories, uh, he 708 00:51:07,300 --> 00:51:12,460 owns his own company that curates art for hotels and multi-family projects. 709 00:51:12,610 --> 00:51:16,360 Um, so just stuff you're not getting exposed to on a day to day basis. 710 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:18,520 This group allows you to meet people like that. 711 00:51:19,180 --> 00:51:22,510 Um, where Kevin was saying, it's good to hear the. 712 00:51:23,390 --> 00:51:26,630 Stories of people working in the institutional companies, so he can 713 00:51:26,630 --> 00:51:29,540 kind of take that information and apply it to the smaller business. 714 00:51:29,570 --> 00:51:33,740 I would say like the reverse is true for me, where I kind of came from, 715 00:51:33,740 --> 00:51:37,550 institutional businesses. Was that crawl before Meridian? 716 00:51:38,210 --> 00:51:42,710 Um, but it's really nice to meet people like Kevin where they're 717 00:51:42,710 --> 00:51:46,310 kind of doing what I want to do, where one day, uh, where they're 718 00:51:46,310 --> 00:51:48,920 kind of breaking down their own, buying their own business, 719 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,310 raising friends and family capital, finding debt. 720 00:51:52,310 --> 00:51:56,660 So he has a lot of information that I'm not privy to because, 721 00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:01,340 you know, the institutional side doesn't have the boots on the ground. 722 00:52:01,550 --> 00:52:05,000 Typically in some of these deals. So, um, meeting people like Kevin 723 00:52:05,450 --> 00:52:10,010 has been, you know, huge for me. And it's good to, you know, 724 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,320 you're the average of the five people you're around the most. 725 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,140 So this group kind of averages you up. 726 00:52:15,140 --> 00:52:20,120 I would say, um, a lot of impressive people and inspirational people, 727 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:23,780 and I'm fairly certain some members of the group will one 728 00:52:23,780 --> 00:52:28,160 day be a podcast. Podcast guest. Uh, you know, if not with you, 729 00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:32,420 John, someone else. Um, so I think just meeting the 730 00:52:32,420 --> 00:52:35,540 people and you can also meet people asynchronously. 731 00:52:35,540 --> 00:52:38,690 I have two kids now, so getting to the tours have been 732 00:52:38,690 --> 00:52:44,380 pretty difficult to me for me. Um. But I can still ping people via the 733 00:52:44,380 --> 00:52:50,050 online community, meet up for coffee, lunch, etc. so, uh, I think the tours 734 00:52:50,050 --> 00:52:53,470 are an amazing experience and very intimate. And how often can you. 735 00:52:54,380 --> 00:52:58,430 Be on a tour with 5 to 10 other people, with Ray Ritchie talking 736 00:52:58,430 --> 00:53:02,360 to you for an hour or so. Like just the group itself is a luck 737 00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:07,730 surface area of luck maximizer, I would say, um, you kind of never 738 00:53:07,730 --> 00:53:10,760 know what you're going to get, but I do think I've had a lot of 739 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,510 luck coming out of it. Um, Kevin actually introduced me 740 00:53:14,510 --> 00:53:17,870 to some people that I would say were extremely lucky and fortunate. 741 00:53:17,870 --> 00:53:21,500 So, you know, there's just situations like that where I can't. 742 00:53:21,860 --> 00:53:25,640 If someone's interested in joining, um, I can't say, you know, 743 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:27,140 you'll join and then this is going to happen. 744 00:53:27,140 --> 00:53:32,000 But, uh, I can assure you that if you join, something positive will happen. 745 00:53:32,210 --> 00:53:36,260 Um, I don't know what it is, but the, you know, the the talent 746 00:53:36,260 --> 00:53:40,910 density of the group itself and the offerings the group offers, uh, 747 00:53:41,540 --> 00:53:48,850 increases the surface area for luck. So let me just say that, uh, 748 00:53:49,420 --> 00:53:56,920 we last year in 2023, we had, um, at least one, uh, tour every month. 749 00:53:57,340 --> 00:53:59,620 I think we probably ended up with about 14. 750 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,560 We toured all kinds of different properties, 751 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:08,800 including a data center, um, uh, large mixed use developments. Uh. 752 00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,410 An apartment complex that was under construction. 753 00:54:13,410 --> 00:54:18,360 A hotel under construction. Uh, you know, uh uh uh uh, mixed use 754 00:54:18,450 --> 00:54:21,540 project. Major mixed use project. An office building in downtown 755 00:54:21,540 --> 00:54:24,510 Bethesda. So we we toured a lot of 756 00:54:24,510 --> 00:54:27,300 different properties, and all of them were with either 757 00:54:27,300 --> 00:54:33,030 the sponsor or the person handling the the operations for that asset. 758 00:54:33,270 --> 00:54:38,880 So we had intimate knowledge and the story behind each project as well. 759 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:43,350 And the tours. We also every month had um and 760 00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:47,880 ask me anything guest. And so I selected typically 761 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:51,840 mid-career professionals to come on uh live. 762 00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:56,340 And this allows for out of town members to participate, not having to 763 00:54:56,340 --> 00:55:00,600 come to Washington to a real estate. And they can plug in and learn 764 00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:05,580 from these people. So, uh, it's a long list of, 765 00:55:05,580 --> 00:55:10,410 of people, but mostly people that I've, uh, either were mentees of 766 00:55:10,410 --> 00:55:16,440 mine historically, uh, or people I did business with or I've known 767 00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:21,360 in the community for a long time that are doing what I would say, 768 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:26,430 cutting edge things or very progressive activity or leading 769 00:55:26,430 --> 00:55:32,550 their respective organizations. I'm not, uh, I think most people that 770 00:55:32,550 --> 00:55:36,360 have participated would have to say that these are engaging conversations 771 00:55:36,510 --> 00:55:40,380 and that it's been a lot of fun. So the way it's set up is they 772 00:55:40,380 --> 00:55:45,180 present for about 30 minutes, either orally or with some visuals, 773 00:55:45,630 --> 00:55:49,200 and then we have Q&A afterward. And it's an engaging conversation 774 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:53,070 that oftentimes goes beyond an hour. And we do it usually around 775 00:55:53,070 --> 00:55:57,360 lunchtime or in the morning. And then most recently in the 776 00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:02,010 last six months, I've done 3 or 4 case studies 777 00:56:02,370 --> 00:56:06,750 where I've actually brought on, um, members that have talked about 778 00:56:06,750 --> 00:56:11,370 transactions that they've closed or are trying to raise money for, 779 00:56:11,850 --> 00:56:16,020 or business platforms that they've built from scratch. 780 00:56:16,020 --> 00:56:19,500 So most recently, I had a fellow from Baltimore who's 781 00:56:19,500 --> 00:56:24,240 a member who built a platform, and he has done extraordinarily 782 00:56:24,240 --> 00:56:29,640 well with it, mostly retail, but buying on auction and figuring 783 00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:33,780 out how to capitalize it through, you know, mostly all equity. 784 00:56:33,870 --> 00:56:36,600 And it's been it's a fascinating platform. 785 00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:38,790 And he explained how he did it, why he did it, 786 00:56:38,790 --> 00:56:43,320 and the structure behind it. Um, another guy acquired four 787 00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:48,240 shopping centers down in Woodbridge. He explained that that was uh, uh, 788 00:56:48,240 --> 00:56:54,090 the Rock Creek, Rock Creek group, and that was, uh, uh, you know, 789 00:56:54,090 --> 00:56:57,330 a large discussion of acquisition there and how they were able to 790 00:56:57,330 --> 00:57:01,860 get the insight on that. And then we had a case study with, 791 00:57:01,980 --> 00:57:05,850 uh, one of our members who met up with another new member who 792 00:57:05,850 --> 00:57:11,100 bought a property together in Alexandria and renovated it, uh, 793 00:57:11,100 --> 00:57:16,080 meeting here in the community. So we're going to try to do in the 794 00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:21,060 2024, we're going to try and do, uh, several case studies and ask 795 00:57:21,060 --> 00:57:25,560 me anything at least monthly, and try to do a tour monthly as well. 796 00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:29,070 The weather is kind of tough now, so we probably start the tours 797 00:57:29,070 --> 00:57:32,730 in February and go through the rest of this year. 798 00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:39,650 So that's what we're doing. And also, uh, in May of this last 799 00:57:39,650 --> 00:57:43,430 year, I formed a non-profit. I talked about this in the past 800 00:57:43,670 --> 00:57:47,420 that's now encompassing both the podcast and this community. 801 00:57:48,110 --> 00:57:54,170 And that that nonprofit is looking to raise money for future programs. 802 00:57:54,620 --> 00:57:59,270 Um, and one of which I'd like to do this spring with our community. 803 00:58:00,650 --> 00:58:04,310 About downtown Washington to try to help reinvent reinvigorate 804 00:58:04,310 --> 00:58:07,880 downtown Washington with ideas, bring some leaders together, 805 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:11,150 some of my podcast guests, maybe some city officials, 806 00:58:11,150 --> 00:58:14,960 etc. to bring some ideas together. And hopefully the community will 807 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:20,090 help support that effort and help recruiting both people to help new 808 00:58:20,090 --> 00:58:26,390 members to the community as well as, uh, future podcast guests and, 809 00:58:26,390 --> 00:58:29,300 uh, and, and money as well. So we're looking to raise some 810 00:58:29,300 --> 00:58:32,870 capital, I will say, and I want to give a special shout 811 00:58:32,870 --> 00:58:37,490 out to three sponsors that have already contributed to the community. 812 00:58:37,490 --> 00:58:41,960 Uh, that is the Rappaport Companies. Gary Rappaport has been twice a 813 00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:48,920 podcast guest of mine. Um. The, the, the pseudo, uh, group. 814 00:58:49,010 --> 00:58:54,770 And I had three podcast guests from prosciutto companies, including Tom 815 00:58:54,770 --> 00:59:02,390 and Toby Barstow and Julie Smith. And then, uh, finally, uh, FCP, 816 00:59:02,390 --> 00:59:06,200 formerly Federal Capital Partners, and Lacey Rice was a podcast 817 00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:08,030 guest of mine. Lacey is one of the founding 818 00:59:08,030 --> 00:59:11,450 members of that company. So I'm looking to raise more 819 00:59:11,450 --> 00:59:14,720 money from other podcast guests as well as other organizations. 820 00:59:14,900 --> 00:59:18,110 And I also would look for contributions to the production 821 00:59:18,110 --> 00:59:21,890 of the podcast as well. So I appreciate any, 822 00:59:21,890 --> 00:59:25,460 any support that any of any of you listeners are willing to give. 823 00:59:25,730 --> 00:59:31,160 And you can reach me via my, uh, email address at John at Co 824 00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:35,300 enterprises.com. So any other things about the 825 00:59:35,300 --> 00:59:38,960 community guys that you think we should talk about? 826 00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,450 Yeah, I think overall it's been, you know, a great opportunity to 827 00:59:44,450 --> 00:59:48,110 network and build relationships. And I know that sounds cliche 828 00:59:48,110 --> 00:59:51,350 for industry groups, but what I think makes this platform 829 00:59:51,350 --> 00:59:54,770 different is not only the frequency of opportunities, but also how 830 00:59:54,770 --> 00:59:59,060 networking is reinforced through different complementary programs. 831 00:59:59,510 --> 01:00:03,410 I often meet people multiple times through live tours and AMAs 832 01:00:03,410 --> 01:00:05,660 and through a mastermind group. So I think that type of 833 01:00:05,660 --> 01:00:10,370 reinforcement is super helpful, and the platform has given me a 834 01:00:10,370 --> 01:00:13,550 comfortable environment to connect with people, and that's been just 835 01:00:13,550 --> 01:00:24,310 really impactful. Thank you. Um, I will say that Ramis, Colin, 836 01:00:24,310 --> 01:00:29,680 and Kevin are all, uh, officers of the community, in essence. 837 01:00:29,770 --> 01:00:32,860 Uh, so they're, uh, because we are a non-profit, 838 01:00:33,250 --> 01:00:36,010 so they're all helping, and they're on the governance committee, 839 01:00:36,010 --> 01:00:40,570 so they're helping advise, uh, for the future growth of the community. 840 01:00:40,570 --> 01:00:43,570 And I really appreciate it. Thank you for doing that, guys. 841 01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:50,620 Yeah, absolutely. So more questions. Yeah. 842 01:00:50,620 --> 01:00:53,350 So John, the podcast is really grown over time. 843 01:00:53,530 --> 01:00:57,160 Uh, you've had a, you know, very robust and impressive guest list. 844 01:00:58,270 --> 01:01:01,210 Can you dig into kind of your preparation on these? Do you? 845 01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:04,600 What's your research? Uh, strategy. How do you prepare? 846 01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:07,600 What's the process looks like before each interview? 847 01:01:08,170 --> 01:01:11,080 Well, it varies with each one. Actually, uh, depends on my 848 01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:15,310 relationship with the with the guest. So if I have known these people 849 01:01:15,310 --> 01:01:18,490 for years or have done business with them, it's a lot easier. 850 01:01:18,490 --> 01:01:23,200 So I will try to mine areas that I don't know about them. 851 01:01:23,890 --> 01:01:28,060 Um, and then I put the things out, I do know and just reinforce those. 852 01:01:28,060 --> 01:01:31,090 And then the relationship I have and how I bring up some of those 853 01:01:31,090 --> 01:01:36,610 ideas from that. But the overall theme is 854 01:01:36,610 --> 01:01:41,320 biographical, so I really want to get into the person, their background, 855 01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:46,000 their origin story and what drove them to come into the industry 856 01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,180 and what, what, why they came in and what intrigued them. 857 01:01:49,180 --> 01:01:54,940 And did they just jump in or not, or did they or was something guided 858 01:01:54,940 --> 01:01:59,740 them here into the business? So that's why I, um, you know, 859 01:01:59,740 --> 01:02:03,340 that's how I do it. And so then the research goes 860 01:02:03,340 --> 01:02:07,660 through that I go online, uh, I ask them for things that they think 861 01:02:07,660 --> 01:02:11,890 I should talk about in advance, and then I provide them questions, 862 01:02:11,890 --> 01:02:14,890 usually in advance, for them to review and think through. 863 01:02:14,890 --> 01:02:18,820 Most of them are very complimentary because I do spend some time 864 01:02:18,820 --> 01:02:21,790 doing some research about them, and a lot of them say, 865 01:02:21,790 --> 01:02:26,170 so where'd you learn that about me? So I thought that was kind of 866 01:02:26,350 --> 01:02:30,820 amusing. Um, you know, people don't 867 01:02:30,820 --> 01:02:33,940 necessarily know sometimes what's out there about them. 868 01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,630 And so I bring it up and then if they don't want to talk about it, 869 01:02:37,870 --> 01:02:40,360 I've had people say, no, let's not get into that. 870 01:02:41,180 --> 01:02:44,210 But most of the time people want to do that. 871 01:02:44,210 --> 01:02:47,690 And what I've also learned is people like to talk about themselves. 872 01:02:48,290 --> 01:02:50,500 So. That's what's fun. 873 01:03:10,500 --> 01:03:15,930 Any other questions? Yeah. So, John, I think we'll wrap it up 874 01:03:15,930 --> 01:03:19,020 with the iconic journey section and we'll obviously edit this out. 875 01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,770 Um, but we're going to transition into the concluding questions. Okay. 876 01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:26,190 Um, I can do the final two if you guys want to do the first three. 877 01:03:28,710 --> 01:03:36,060 Okay. All right. Let me. Look at them real. Quick. Um. Okay. 878 01:03:36,060 --> 01:03:40,460 Yeah. Let me. I can take, uh. I'll do the like transition. 879 01:03:41,150 --> 01:03:46,820 Okay. And then take a number 13. And then maybe Colin you want to 880 01:03:46,820 --> 01:03:54,760 take 1415. Yeah. I'm, uh. I feel like what I'm referencing is 881 01:03:54,760 --> 01:04:00,860 off numbered. Where's fortune start? Your second and third question. Yeah. 882 01:04:00,860 --> 01:04:04,190 So mine is the one that says what person or people have stood out to 883 01:04:04,190 --> 01:04:08,300 you as inspirations and why? Okay. And then I'm you want me to do the 884 01:04:08,300 --> 01:04:15,890 next two. You said. Mhm. Okay. Got it. Cool. All right, all right. 885 01:04:17,060 --> 01:04:20,570 So my camera keeps going off. Sorry. I feel like I'm doing like a 886 01:04:20,570 --> 01:04:23,600 Hollywood production here. Three. One. 887 01:04:24,670 --> 01:04:26,800 All right John, so really appreciate you digging 888 01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:31,000 into the iconic journey and just all the work you've put into that. 889 01:04:31,090 --> 01:04:34,600 We kind of want to transition here. Um, and conclude out the episode 890 01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:39,880 with a few, uh, final questions. First thing, what person or people 891 01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:45,280 have stood out to you personally as inspirations and why? So I'll start. 892 01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:51,320 Out with my father. Uh. He was a huge influence of my life. 893 01:04:51,620 --> 01:04:56,720 Uh, more ways than one. Uh, he was six foot five and 894 01:04:56,720 --> 01:05:00,800 weighed three over £300. So it was a huge man, physically. 895 01:05:01,490 --> 01:05:05,240 Uh, so it was a little guy. I was intimidated by him. 896 01:05:05,750 --> 01:05:12,440 Uh, he and he had a booming voice and loved to laugh and was a storyteller. 897 01:05:12,830 --> 01:05:16,670 So I learned a lot about people and relationships. 898 01:05:16,670 --> 01:05:19,340 And when my dad walked in the room, he just kind of. 899 01:05:21,170 --> 01:05:25,820 He was like a force of nature. So, uh. 900 01:05:25,820 --> 01:05:29,780 And his voice, when he'd laugh, people could hear it literally 901 01:05:29,810 --> 01:05:32,600 hundreds of feet away. So, you know, 902 01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:37,130 he was just that kind of personality. And so he, uh, 903 01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:41,480 he was a big influence to me. But he he took things a little 904 01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,450 too far sometimes. Uh, and it was a little too 905 01:05:44,450 --> 01:05:49,190 boisterous occasionally. Uh, and struggled a little bit 906 01:05:49,190 --> 01:05:54,650 with his, you know, self-control. Uh, but he was brilliant and a really 907 01:05:54,650 --> 01:05:58,100 incredible person, uh, in many ways. And I learned a lot from him, 908 01:05:58,100 --> 01:06:03,320 both positively and negatively. Uh, in my career, I've had several 909 01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:08,750 mentors who guided me along the way. Uh, one one person who I'll call out, 910 01:06:09,230 --> 01:06:14,990 uh, individually because I met him in 1983 when I was in Chicago. 911 01:06:16,100 --> 01:06:20,030 And he was one of my clients actually, at the time, uh, trying to 912 01:06:20,030 --> 01:06:25,460 find deals. His name was Brad Olson. Brad lives in North Carolina now. 913 01:06:25,460 --> 01:06:28,460 He moved there from Chicago many years ago. 914 01:06:28,490 --> 01:06:33,380 He's an international advisor in real estate and did very large 915 01:06:33,380 --> 01:06:38,150 transactions, and he just guided me along the way in thinking. 916 01:06:38,150 --> 01:06:41,090 And we talked very often about opportunities. 917 01:06:41,090 --> 01:06:45,560 He would bring me situations I would introduce to him occasionally, 918 01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:51,830 but he was just an overall guide to me and a great person, um, 919 01:06:52,460 --> 01:06:56,540 and had a calm demeanor and very brilliant guy who was a Harvard 920 01:06:56,540 --> 01:07:00,590 lawyer but decided to go into business and just a great guy. 921 01:07:01,010 --> 01:07:04,850 So I'll say that he's now retired, but we've known each other, 922 01:07:04,850 --> 01:07:11,820 as I said, now 40 years. John, what are your life priorities 923 01:07:11,820 --> 01:07:16,990 now among family, work and giving back? So similar to my other guests. 924 01:07:16,990 --> 01:07:19,870 Family is first. My wife and I have been married 925 01:07:19,870 --> 01:07:24,570 41 years. And we have two sons, 37 and 33. 926 01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,300 Colin, you talked about both of them earlier on because you've 927 01:07:27,300 --> 01:07:31,650 met them and actually swam with them and knew them growing up 928 01:07:31,650 --> 01:07:35,340 and playing with them. Uh, both of them are very happy. 929 01:07:35,340 --> 01:07:39,570 My older son is, uh, a former helicopter Navy helicopter pilot. 930 01:07:39,570 --> 01:07:44,640 He went to UVA and Rothesay and then, uh, now in the health care 931 01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:50,250 business out in California. Um, and he's married my younger son, 932 01:07:50,250 --> 01:07:53,580 uh, uh, was a swimmer at Princeton University. 933 01:07:53,580 --> 01:07:57,870 And then, uh, when, uh, joined a marketing company as a, 934 01:07:57,870 --> 01:08:04,980 as a technical, he got his computer science degree and went on he now has 935 01:08:04,980 --> 01:08:09,870 become a chief technical officer for a startup company doing quite well, 936 01:08:09,870 --> 01:08:15,870 living in upstate New York. Um, both of them are, uh, engaged 937 01:08:15,870 --> 01:08:20,940 with, uh, another lady that both ladies are great that they're with. 938 01:08:20,940 --> 01:08:25,110 One's married, the other one's not, but they're having a good time. 939 01:08:25,440 --> 01:08:31,110 And, you know, that's great. Uh, with regard to my career, um, 940 01:08:31,110 --> 01:08:37,770 I pivoted, as I said earlier, uh, in 2015, from mostly focused on deals, 941 01:08:37,770 --> 01:08:42,720 making deals happen to young people. And that became my focus. 942 01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:47,370 And it has been now for. You know, going on nine years. 943 01:08:47,370 --> 01:08:52,650 And I would say that both the the advisory work as well as the 944 01:08:52,950 --> 01:08:57,060 career counseling then led into the podcast and now the community. 945 01:08:57,060 --> 01:09:00,960 And that's been my focus. And I'm so gratified by this effort. 946 01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:04,320 And it brings it brings me emotion to think about it. 947 01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:08,670 Uh, the next generation, including you guys, about your future. 948 01:09:09,150 --> 01:09:12,570 I'm so excited about watching it happen. 949 01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:18,990 It keeps me young and engaged emotionally and, uh, motivates me to, 950 01:09:18,990 --> 01:09:22,020 uh, work with young people because that's what I'm working with now. 951 01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:26,790 Very few people of my own age. Like, do I do any work with now? 952 01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,120 Uh, in some ways, I wish I had done this earlier. 953 01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:37,490 Uh, my takeaway from this is. Is having a great spirit, 954 01:09:37,940 --> 01:09:42,050 a giving spirit, and all you do and care and serve. 955 01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:47,870 Um, giving back is my life now. So while I wouldn't give us as 956 01:09:47,870 --> 01:09:51,440 much treasure as others do and giving back to the community. 957 01:09:51,860 --> 01:09:56,800 Uh, I give my time and my passion now. So great. 958 01:09:58,750 --> 01:10:01,330 And then across your illustrious career, 959 01:10:01,330 --> 01:10:05,560 what were your biggest wins, losses and what surprised you the most? 960 01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:10,420 Well, from a career standpoint, uh, probably the biggest, 961 01:10:10,420 --> 01:10:15,550 most interesting and biggest win and took the most time and energy was, 962 01:10:15,550 --> 01:10:18,550 uh, financing the construction of the Mandarin Oriental Hotel 963 01:10:18,550 --> 01:10:22,240 in Washington, DC, which required going to the District 964 01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:27,850 of Columbia and doing the first, uh, TIF financing, which is, uh, 965 01:10:27,850 --> 01:10:31,990 tax increment financing to work through the legislation with the city 966 01:10:31,990 --> 01:10:38,020 council district and then getting that legislation executed with my 967 01:10:38,020 --> 01:10:43,090 client and helping with that process, and then getting a construction 968 01:10:43,090 --> 01:10:46,390 loan from a German bank for the, for the, for the project. 969 01:10:46,810 --> 01:10:53,050 And that deal closed in, uh, 2003. But I started working on it in 1998. 970 01:10:53,050 --> 01:10:56,650 So it was a five year effort. Labor of love to get that deal done. 971 01:10:57,490 --> 01:11:01,150 Um, turned out to be a five star hotel, which recently was, uh, 972 01:11:01,150 --> 01:11:07,260 sold to, uh. Robert Johnson's, uh. Uh, you know, Sheila Johnson 973 01:11:07,260 --> 01:11:10,680 bought it and, uh, turned it into the salamander. It's called now. 974 01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:14,070 So that's what it is. With. Regard to losses. 975 01:11:14,130 --> 01:11:17,670 Um, I was laid off three times in my career, uh, 976 01:11:17,670 --> 01:11:24,190 and had two financial deal breakups. So on, transactions and things 977 01:11:24,190 --> 01:11:27,220 that didn't happen. So I had some lessons I learned 978 01:11:27,220 --> 01:11:31,990 from each of those incidences. Um, so I've grown from that. 979 01:11:31,990 --> 01:11:35,800 And that's what I try to help with. My counseling with young people 980 01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,830 is to be careful. And I said that earlier, 981 01:11:38,830 --> 01:11:43,750 being due diligence, you know, really understand what you're getting into. 982 01:11:44,530 --> 01:11:49,210 Uh, both personally and and professionally. Surprising thing. Uh. 983 01:11:50,450 --> 01:11:53,870 Realizing that if I take initiative, good things will happen. 984 01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:59,520 So I found this out about mid-career and I haven't looked back. So. 985 01:12:00,330 --> 01:12:05,100 Just jump. Just do, just go. Don't stop when you have a when you 986 01:12:05,130 --> 01:12:08,520 when you when you have an idea, go for it. 987 01:12:09,180 --> 01:12:13,200 You treat it as an experiment. If it doesn't work out, step back. 988 01:12:13,950 --> 01:12:19,940 Um. So jump into the deep end. Try and learn as while you're going. 989 01:12:20,150 --> 01:12:22,340 And that's what this community is all about. 990 01:12:22,730 --> 01:12:26,810 No one else had done this before. I said, hey, let's make it. 991 01:12:26,810 --> 01:12:29,540 Let's make it happen. So I I'm working on it. 992 01:12:29,660 --> 01:12:34,100 It's an experiment. Yeah. Good advice. Words to live by. 993 01:12:35,030 --> 01:12:38,300 Um, what advice would you give your 25 year old self today? 994 01:12:40,260 --> 01:12:46,500 Be prepared for setbacks that come unexpectedly. Uh yet. Don't give. 995 01:12:46,500 --> 01:12:50,610 Don't stop initiating and trying. Life is one big experiment. 996 01:12:51,090 --> 01:12:56,640 Live like a scientist and keep trying new things. Yeah. Great advice. 997 01:12:56,640 --> 01:13:01,680 I'll have to do more of it. Great. So now it's time for our final 998 01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:04,470 question, which is one of my favorites and something that I 999 01:13:04,470 --> 01:13:07,500 know you ask all of your guests. And, you know, I've had, um, 1000 01:13:07,590 --> 01:13:10,650 the opportunity to compile this into a document so that we can 1001 01:13:10,650 --> 01:13:14,790 really absorb all the information. Um, if you could post a statement 1002 01:13:14,790 --> 01:13:18,390 on a billboard on the Capitol Beltway for millions to see, 1003 01:13:18,390 --> 01:13:22,930 what would it say? So combining a couple of other, 1004 01:13:23,650 --> 01:13:26,950 uh, podcast guest responses, I'll say this. 1005 01:13:27,610 --> 01:13:33,340 Uh, be kind and don't stop believing in yourself. That's what I would say. 1006 01:13:34,030 --> 01:13:39,100 So go for it. Yeah. Well, what a great way to end. 1007 01:13:39,130 --> 01:13:41,680 It's been incredible to hear your story. 1008 01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:45,640 Um, we really appreciate your time. And, you know, thank you for giving 1009 01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:48,790 us the opportunity to have this conversation and to be a part of the 1010 01:13:48,790 --> 01:13:54,410 iconic journey. Well. Thank you. Uh, Ramis, Colin and Kevin, 1011 01:13:54,410 --> 01:13:58,100 I really appreciate you doing this. And thank you, Ray Richie, 1012 01:13:58,100 --> 01:14:02,570 for giving us the idea to to make this happen. So thank you. 1013 01:14:02,570 --> 01:14:07,190 And once again, I'll just say, uh, if you're interested in the iconic 1014 01:14:07,190 --> 01:14:13,790 journey, uh, or the icons podcast, write me a John at Co enterprises.com 1015 01:14:13,790 --> 01:14:19,400 co e enterprises.com. Thank you for listening and I 1016 01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:21,830 appreciate your uh joining us today.