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So John Keegan, hi and welcome
to Icons of Deseret Real Estate.

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Thank you for joining me today.
Thank you.

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John, it's, it's a pleasure to be
here with you today. That's great.

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John, could you describe your
role at Chevy Chase Land Company

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and your focus day to day?
Keep only to your role,

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and we'll speak about your
company later. Yeah, sure.

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00:00:20,220 --> 00:00:24,570, so the Chevy Chase Land Company, as many know,

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it's a it's a privately held, real estate investment firm.

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It's been around for quite some time,
and I'm sure we'll we'll talk a

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lot about the history, and today we are we're

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governed by an independent board, I serve as the president and CEO.

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So I spend a lot of time
overseeing the day to day

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activities of the company, I work very closely with our

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board of directors, and we also have
a, a family council who I interact

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with frequently to help communicate
to the shareholders who are still

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very close with the company, one of the key priorities

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that I have is,
focusing on our ten year strategy.

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We put that together,
two and a half years ago.

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So I work closely with our team,
and I leverage the knowledge and

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resources of our board so that
as we plan for, you know,

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what's ahead for 2024.
And we think about what's in the

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near term, going out a few years.
Everything that we do is aligned with

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our long term goals of the company.
And obviously we'll get into that.

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And I'm very excited to share
with you some of our,

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some of our growth ideas.
That's awesome. Thank you.

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So now let's, turn back to your
history a little bit and your origins

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and youth and parental influences.
So where were you raised?

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So, yeah, I'd say my my origin, certainly nothing

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extraordinary about it.
I would actually claim that it's

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mostly ordinary.
I was born in Baltimore City,

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at Baltimore Harbor Hospital.
I think it has a different name

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today.
And I was raised in Pasadena,

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Maryland, not Gibson Island,

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as many people,
has suspected in the past.

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The the regular Pasadena,
and my, my entire family is from

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the Baltimore area,
and I don't know the number, but now

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with all the cousins having kids,
there's probably 75 to 80 family

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members. Wow. It's big.
I'm kind of the black sheep that

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left Baltimore and moved down to
Washington, DC.

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working class environment,

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and I think the context is is
somewhat helpful to my story.

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went to a public high school,

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Northeast High School,
and I would guess of the 200 people,

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5% went on to a four year college.

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community of, you know, get your

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degree and get to work. Right.
This was a working class community,

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contribute to the community and,
and produce.

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same way my, my entire family,

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nobody had gone to college.
So I was sort of raised in that

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environment where it wasn't
really a thought.

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and this is part of my story,

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I wasn't very focused because I

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never really thought about what my
grades might mean for my future.

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Now, my parents, I had two,
two parents, and I think they have

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somewhat of a unique story that
you don't hear too much today.

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They both graduated high school in
Baltimore County, and they both went

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to work for different companies.
My my father went to work for

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Poole and Kent, he was a plumber,

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steam fitter, union worker.
And my mother went to work for

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Baltimore Gas and Electric,
and she started as a secretary on

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the retail side, if you remember, BGA used to have stores where

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they would sell appliances,
and they had a service team to

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help service those appliances.
And some 45 years later,

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my father retired from Poland,
Kent and my mother retired from

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Baltimore Gas and Electric.
So they were. There for 45 years.

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They both they both got one job at
one company, and they worked their

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way up through, you know, through
the corporate ladder, if you will.

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And they retired from the same
company,

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which is somewhat unheard of today, but in that, you know, I learned

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a lot from both of my parents, my father and my mother both

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taught me the value of, of hard work, they taught me the value of

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loyalty and dedication, you know, my dad, you know,

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he he put me to work when I was a
young teenager, on side jobs,

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eventually on a more full time basis.
So I got to learn to use my hands.

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I got very familiar.
With what it meant to do some

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construction and I'll talk about
that.

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And, and one thing that he always
said to me, and it resonated,

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but I kind of changed it in my mind.
He said he calls me Johnny.

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He says, Johnny, keep your head down
and work hard and money will follow.

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Right? And that's sound advice.
But I made a slight modification

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in my career and that,
I didn't keep my head down.

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I kept my head up, and I worked hard,
so I was looking for opportunities.

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she was a great example of how
hard work can pay off.

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She graduated top of her class.
She might have even been

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valedictorian, and so she went right to work.

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And throughout her career she
moved from secretary.

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And when she retired,
she was holding a senior management

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position within the organization
in charge of their entire

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customer service division. Wow, so she was a role model in that

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way, and that she showed me,
no matter what your credentials

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might look like, you always have
the opportunity to prove yourself

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through hard work and dedication.
So those are great, great lessons.

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I would say both my parents are just
they're generally very nice, sincere

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people. They're very authentic.
They were very well respected in

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our neighborhood and they were
always there to help people. Right.

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And so,
so I was very fortunate to have that.

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And I'm very lucky that they're both
alive today. So they're still alive.

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They're healthy and they're
doing well.

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I think, they're probably
golfing in Florida right now,

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which would be nice, so so as I go,

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as I think about my life,
like through high school, as I

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mentioned, I wasn't very focused.
I had I had no ambition,

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I guess is the best way to put it.
And I don't really know why.

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I just,
didn't think it was really important.

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I was the class clown,
I think was voted class clown.

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You know, in my high school days,
I was playing soccer and lacrosse,

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and I really enjoyed playing my
sports. That was fun.

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it was probably in my,

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early junior year in high school, two things happened that

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caused a big change in my life.
One, and I was I think I was

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grounded for two years straight in
high school because of my grades.

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My parents tried and tried and tried.
But as they say, you can you can

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lead a horse to water, but, and so I sensed a little bit of,

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giving up on me, but kind of losing

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hope that there wasn't going to
be a bright future in my path.

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And it was probably more subconscious
because as a teenager, you're a

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bit rebellious and, you know,
you don't think about those things.

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really bothered me.

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very grateful for this.

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My father put me,
to work as a union laborer.

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So I spent several years every
summer and every break that I had,

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And so I'm, you know,

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I'm a teenager.
I've got the tripod vise over one

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shoulder, I've got the hammer drill
and the other, and I'm starting

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work at 6:00 in the morning,

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and it was it was great experience.
But the other thing that happened

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is I'm downtown Baltimore and I'm
watching all of these things happen.

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The people around me, I'm looking at
doctors and nurses because one of the

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projects was by Hopkins Hospital, so a lot of other things in

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that neighborhood as well, I was downtown,

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the Lake Mason building and all
of these people, and there's so

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much energy and there's,
there's people sitting out having

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these great lunches, and there's
people going out to the happy hours.

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And then here's me right now.
I'm a dirty kid in my jeans that

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was probably wearing a Def
Leppard t shirt or something.

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And, and all of a sudden I
thought, you know what?

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There's so much opportunity in
the world,

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and I'm on the path towards none.
And it kind of like it kind of

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woke up something to me.
And so I changed. I changed my path.

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I made a decision at that moment
that I wasn't going to continue

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down that path, and that I was
going to get my act together,

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get my grades straight, and then I made a decision

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that I was going to go to college.
I didn't know what to study or why,

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but I wanted to go to college.
I wanted to get an education,

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and I thought that might be an avenue
to open up some opportunities.

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Is there anybody, like a counselor or
a teacher or some person outside

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your family that might have said,
you know, John, you ought to

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rethink this a little bit,
what you're doing? You know.

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There was one, not necessarily.
There's not necessarily one

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individual, but there's one instance
where a teacher pushed me,

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there was a speech competition,
and I submitted something like I

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usually did, kind of half assed.
And the teacher said, you know what?

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I like your idea. I'm selecting you.
You're going to be the participant of

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our school to present this speech.
And and in hindsight.

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But the teacher saw that I had a
little bit more potential and

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put me in the hot spot, right.
Put me in a hot seat and

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challenged me to do it.
So I had to take it seriously.

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How did you feel about that?
At the time, I was excited and

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and and nervous at the same time, and I did. I took it seriously.

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I had to write a speech,
something about family values.

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And I had to present it,
to an auditorium of a couple of

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hundred people, and I got a nice certificate.

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I don't think I won the competition,
but it was one of the first times

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that I was put in the spot to say,
why don't you try something and

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take it seriously and and not
make it a joke?

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You did either of your parents
see it. They did.

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What did they say afterward?
I think they were.

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They were proud of the fact,
as I incorporated, some of my

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views of my family and my parents.
And in this speech, it was it

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was sponsored by the Veterans of
Foreign Wars. So. And, yeah.

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And, and my father,
he served some time in Vietnam.

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And so it was,
it was not necessarily a moment

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that I recognized at that time.
But later in life, as I looked back,

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I realized that that was a testing
moment. And it was done deliberately.

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Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, and so so that was it.

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So I decided I'm going to go to
college.

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I started getting on the honor roll.
My grades went from C's to a

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pluses and maybe a couple of B's, and I, you know, as I told my

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parents, I'm going to go to college,
and I think they chuckled and

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laughed as, you know, like, as if
you have a chance because that's

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kind of who I was mentality. Yeah, and,

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and so I set my sights on that.
And my mother worked with a

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woman whose daughter,
when I was a senior in high school,

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she was a, she was a freshman
at Randolph-Macon College.

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And so when, when people ask me,
why did you go to Randolph-Macon

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College? The answer is quite simple.
It's the only college I had ever

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visited or heard of, frankly. Right.
Because there just wasn't that

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culture.
She invited me down for a weekend,

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and I went down and I'm walking
around this campus and students

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are hanging out and studying,
and and then they're going out in the

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afternoon and doing some activities,
and people are going out at night.

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And I thought, this is amazing.
I loved it.

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And so I said, that's where I'm
going to go to school.

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And that's what I set my sights on.
And I and I learned at that time,

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you know, once and I'm like this
today, my wife still jokes that

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once I decide to do something,
I'm all in. There is no halfway.

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There's there's 110%.
And so that's where I ended up

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going to college.
You didn't look at any other schools.

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That's interesting.
Never thought too?

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That's interesting too. Yeah.
And it was a good experience.

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It was a great experience, you know, great friends.

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And it was a small school which
ended up being right for me.

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I got, you know, call it 20 to 1
ratio of students to teacher.

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And so I got a lot of attention
from the professors to kind of

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help me get through it, so it was an adventure when

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you started? Oh, yeah.
And by the time you got done,

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what did it help you think about
with regard to your future?

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it was an eye opener for me.

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belong. Right.

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Everybody's got a moment in life
where they're put in a situation you

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sort of feel like you don't learn.
So I kind of had that feeling.

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And then I kind of realized that,
you know what it did?

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And I realized that,
the other students who were there

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who probably were thinking about
college well ahead of of me,

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there weren't any better than me.
Right?

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I had all the skills and tools
that I needed, and it made me

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feel like post graduate.
I need to take that lesson and use

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00:13:32,930 --> 00:13:36,950
it throughout my career. Right?
Just again, it's like like my mother

220
00:13:36,950 --> 00:13:40,130
and father taught me hard work will
prevail over a lot of other things.

221
00:13:40,130 --> 00:13:44,330
And so I took that work ethic
with me. Fascinating.

222
00:13:44,450 --> 00:13:47,420
So what about a career?
What were you thinking about

223
00:13:47,420 --> 00:13:49,550
when you're coming towards the
end of college?

224
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,920
Well, I studied political science
and I had this, fantasy that

225
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,610
I would go to law school. Right.
And political science at a

226
00:13:58,610 --> 00:14:01,550
liberal arts school was sort of
a precursor to that.

227
00:14:01,910 --> 00:14:04,880
And then I realized that law school
at that time would cost about

228
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,870
$120,000 and another two years of,
of my life.

229
00:14:08,870 --> 00:14:12,830
And I had no money for three years.
I had no, I had no money.

230
00:14:13,730 --> 00:14:18,980, and I realized that that was sort
of a, not necessarily fantasy,

231
00:14:18,980 --> 00:14:21,650
but it was shortsighted.
I thought if you were a lawyer,

232
00:14:21,650 --> 00:14:23,330
that would define success.
And I thought, well,

233
00:14:23,330 --> 00:14:28,580
that would be successful, and so I got my degree, and then,

234
00:14:28,580 --> 00:14:34,910, my first job, I was in credit
card collections for Signet Bank,

235
00:14:35,150 --> 00:14:39,110
which is now part of Capital One, and the reason I took that

236
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:42,290
job was because I wanted income
to stand on my own two feet.

237
00:14:42,290 --> 00:14:45,920
That was my inspiration, I graduated on a Saturday,

238
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,070
and I started work that Monday.
And at the end of that month,

239
00:14:49,070 --> 00:14:52,700
I had income to pay for my
apartment and my bills.

240
00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:57,020
And so my idea was, let's just get
some work experience and let's stand

241
00:14:57,020 --> 00:14:59,600
on my own. Two here in Washington.
Area that was in Richmond.

242
00:14:59,860 --> 00:15:01,690
In Richmond.
So I stayed in Richmond for a

243
00:15:01,690 --> 00:15:06,550
couple of years. Yeah, it was a horrible job. Yeah.

244
00:15:06,970 --> 00:15:09,490
I mean, it was, you know,
it was a robo collar, and all I

245
00:15:09,490 --> 00:15:13,570
did all day long was as soon as.
As soon as I hung up,

246
00:15:14,380 --> 00:15:17,800
as soon as I heard the click,
the computer dialed the next person.

247
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,080
And I'm on the phone with.
So all day long,

248
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,340
I'm talking to people who were there.
I was in what's called the 90

249
00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:27,400
day bucket.
So you were three months or late

250
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,750
later on your on your bills, but there was a valuable

251
00:15:31,750 --> 00:15:35,800
lesson to that. And it was.
And I talked to a lot of doctors and

252
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,870
lawyers who were in very big debt and
very, very behind on their payments.

253
00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:43,360
And they all said,
I just fell on hard times.

254
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,430
I'm going to pay you back.
Stop calling.

255
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,030
And it was a really important
lesson for me as a young person.

256
00:15:49,330 --> 00:15:53,140
And that lesson was just because
you're doing well one year doesn't

257
00:15:53,140 --> 00:15:56,200
mean you're going to do well the next
year. Don't get ahead of yourself.

258
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,020
If you've got a great job and you're
making a great salary, you can never

259
00:15:59,020 --> 00:16:01,420
assume that that's what you're going
to get for the next ten years.

260
00:16:01,420 --> 00:16:03,910
And a lot of these people made
that assumption.

261
00:16:04,180 --> 00:16:08,050
And they've had 3 or 4 credit cards
and they were all maxed out. Right.

262
00:16:08,050 --> 00:16:11,410
Because they thought, oh I can
pay it. Pay it back over time.

263
00:16:11,410 --> 00:16:15,220
And they were all in, in hardship.
And these are people that are

264
00:16:15,220 --> 00:16:19,150
making really good income. Yeah.
These are, these are, you know,

265
00:16:19,150 --> 00:16:22,270
professionals who had,
great educations,

266
00:16:22,270 --> 00:16:26,290
great backgrounds and great careers.
But for whatever reason,

267
00:16:26,290 --> 00:16:29,380
things change.
And so I took that valuable lesson

268
00:16:29,380 --> 00:16:34,780
because I heard it every day.
So, so you were there for two years,

269
00:16:34,780 --> 00:16:38,050
and then. And then what did you.
I mean, you probably got fed up

270
00:16:38,050 --> 00:16:41,680
after a while doing here. Yeah.
Yeah, I was there for a couple of

271
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,370
years, and I also wanted to change.
Richmond is a very small town,

272
00:16:45,370 --> 00:16:48,850
right when you're a young person, it's a great town.

273
00:16:48,850 --> 00:16:51,010
I think as you get older,
I have a lot of friends that are

274
00:16:51,010 --> 00:16:55,210
there now, and they're, you know,
with family. So I came up here.

275
00:16:55,450 --> 00:16:57,520
I had some friends from college
who lived up here.

276
00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,480
I came up here and,
and I got my start in Rockville.

277
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,720
I was working with an investment
firm, and this was,

278
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,470
this was a very high net worth, private investment firm with

279
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:10,900
clients around the world.
How'd you find out about it?

280
00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:15,070
Newspaper. Really? Yeah.
And why? Why that? Why what?

281
00:17:15,250 --> 00:17:18,220
It was finance related.
I started gravitating towards

282
00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:20,920
numbers, I felt like, you know,

283
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,730
I was. I wasn't a.
I wasn't a math wizard,

284
00:17:24,730 --> 00:17:28,300
but I was good with numbers,
and I appreciate calculations. Right.

285
00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:31,000
I'm very calculated in how I
approach things.

286
00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:34,690
And so I sort of gravitated in,
in that direction.

287
00:17:34,690 --> 00:17:39,370
And I there was an ad in the paper.
I submitted my resume and I went

288
00:17:39,370 --> 00:17:42,370
to work for this group,
and I was I was the trader.

289
00:17:42,370 --> 00:17:46,420
So the the portfolio planners would
pick the stocks and they would hand

290
00:17:46,420 --> 00:17:49,480
me the stocks and I would call
the trading desks and I would,

291
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,640
I would trade and I would
reconcile things and,

292
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,900
and I would occasionally deal with
some of the clients where they would

293
00:17:55,900 --> 00:18:00,460
call and they would ask for money, and very interestingly,

294
00:18:00,460 --> 00:18:03,850
they would ask for in code.
So there might be someone who

295
00:18:03,850 --> 00:18:09,790
calls me from Mexico and asks for
50 million catalogs to be shipped

296
00:18:09,790 --> 00:18:13,540
to their office in Switzerland,
which meant I need that much

297
00:18:13,540 --> 00:18:15,670
money moved from this account to
my Swiss account.

298
00:18:16,180 --> 00:18:18,580
Very private,
very wealthy individuals.

299
00:18:20,020 --> 00:18:22,540, and so I was there for a couple
of years. I really enjoyed it.

300
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,850, and I didn't quite feel valued.
I had asked for a raise and at

301
00:18:27,850 --> 00:18:31,660
that time was modest a few
thousand dollars.

302
00:18:31,660 --> 00:18:33,970
But it meant a lot to me as a
young person.

303
00:18:34,330 --> 00:18:38,890
And, they said, no, they said,
that's too big of a percentage.

304
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,740
And I said, but you love me.
You think I'm doing great.

305
00:18:41,740 --> 00:18:45,070
All you do is praise me and tell
me how wonderful I am.

306
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:47,470
And so don't think about the
percentage.

307
00:18:47,470 --> 00:18:50,620
Think about this is the total
amount I'm asking for.

308
00:18:50,620 --> 00:18:53,260
And I think I'm worth that,
if not more.

309
00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:56,410
And they just kept going back to
the calculation.

310
00:18:56,410 --> 00:19:01,210
So I was living with a few folks, one was in law school and she

311
00:19:01,210 --> 00:19:05,650
was in law school with a gentleman
named Jeff, and he worked at RA

312
00:19:05,650 --> 00:19:09,640
resources, and they were growing
this underwriting business,

313
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,780
for the CMS market.
And he was by one night and he said,

314
00:19:13,780 --> 00:19:18,100
well, you know, I'm growing this
company and hiring, do you know,

315
00:19:18,100 --> 00:19:20,740
real estate? And I said, no.
He said, do you know numbers?

316
00:19:20,740 --> 00:19:22,690
And I said, yes.
He said, well, if you know numbers,

317
00:19:22,690 --> 00:19:26,080
you can learn real estate.
And so that's how I, I pivoted

318
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,640
to RR and that's, that's how
my real estate career started.

319
00:19:30,670 --> 00:19:34,090
Talk about what RA does and did
and you know. Yeah.

320
00:19:34,270 --> 00:19:38,710
So RA originally, was,
real estate recovery.

321
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:43,360
It was formed in the RTC days by
Chris Oaks and at the,

322
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:47,560
at the time that I joined,
which was around 1997,

323
00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:52,630
the CMBS market was in its infancy.
And I think at that time there might

324
00:19:52,630 --> 00:19:58,930
have been 200 million of production
approximately, and the.

325
00:19:59,140 --> 00:20:03,490
Originators who are all in New York, they were so new that they

326
00:20:03,490 --> 00:20:07,360
didn't have underwriting in house,
so they farmed out the service

327
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:10,390
of doing the underwriting to a
third party. We were one of them.

328
00:20:10,780 --> 00:20:13,420
So we were providing the
underwriting,

329
00:20:13,420 --> 00:20:17,080
to Transatlantic Capital Corp,
which was a part of Deutsche

330
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:22,600
Bank and Salomon Smith Barney.
And so I'm, you know,

331
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:27,100
I'm a young man and I'm tasked now
with traveling the country looking

332
00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:33,100
at deals, looking at c-plus,
deals in some of the finest markets,

333
00:20:33,100 --> 00:20:38,620
like East Orange, new Jersey,
parts of parts of Detroit, that I

334
00:20:38,620 --> 00:20:44,350
was in, LA a lot in Manhattan, and most of the it was every

335
00:20:44,350 --> 00:20:48,190
property type office, retail,
multifamily hotel.

336
00:20:48,910 --> 00:20:51,670
And we were underwriting and
there was a group of us we were

337
00:20:51,670 --> 00:20:55,840
underwriting, you know, probably 4 or
5 properties per person per month.

338
00:20:56,020 --> 00:20:59,500
This is how fast things were going.
And that meant traveling to the site.

339
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,250, how would.
You define a C plus property?

340
00:21:03,910 --> 00:21:10,210
Very rundown, very,

341
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:13,390
sort of lots of maintenance,
lots of deferred maintenance.

342
00:21:13,390 --> 00:21:16,750
That was one of the number one
aspects to our underwriting.

343
00:21:16,750 --> 00:21:19,330, typically not in a prime
neighborhood.

344
00:21:19,930 --> 00:21:24,310, sometimes you were escorted
by a couple of, maintenance

345
00:21:24,310 --> 00:21:28,570
people as you toured the property.
Low occupancy. High occupancy, high.

346
00:21:28,570 --> 00:21:31,480
Occupancy, high. Occupancy. Yeah.
Very, very,

347
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:37,270
very densely populated areas, I see, but, you know, if, if the market

348
00:21:37,270 --> 00:21:41,410
rent at the time where, if the,
if the prime market rent was $2 a

349
00:21:41,410 --> 00:21:45,370
foot, we were looking at product
that was a dollar a foot, right.

350
00:21:45,490 --> 00:21:48,400, but they needed financing
nonetheless.

351
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,600
And CMS was serving that needs.
So, so.

352
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,410
I basically replaced the SNL
industry. Right? Right.

353
00:21:56,410 --> 00:22:02,710
As far as that type of lending. Yeah.
And I spent three years working in

354
00:22:02,740 --> 00:22:05,710
that business, and I can't tell you
the number of properties that I

355
00:22:05,710 --> 00:22:09,130
looked at and visited and underwrote.
And it was a very thorough

356
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:10,330
underwriting.
And of course,

357
00:22:10,330 --> 00:22:13,000
when you're underwriting,
you're getting market comps.

358
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:17,110
And in the late 1990s,
it wasn't on the computer.

359
00:22:17,230 --> 00:22:20,470
You were you were walking door to
door, you were going to the cops,

360
00:22:20,470 --> 00:22:23,470
and you were trying to convince
a property manager to give you

361
00:22:23,470 --> 00:22:25,660
information. Right.
Which was very challenging.

362
00:22:26,410 --> 00:22:28,480, but I learned a lot about
real estate.

363
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,630
It was a great introduction to, to the business.

364
00:22:31,630 --> 00:22:34,360
And I got exposure to every
asset class.

365
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,760
Did you,
have interface with the borrowers,

366
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,970
too, when you were doing this?
So no interface with borrowers?

367
00:22:39,970 --> 00:22:43,570
Only a couple of times.
Only a couple of times.

368
00:22:43,570 --> 00:22:48,100
And one, you might appreciate
this. I'll do the quick side story.

369
00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:51,310
One was the Chelsea market
building in Manhattan.

370
00:22:51,460 --> 00:22:55,000, and I believe it was owned
at the time by Irwin Cohen.

371
00:22:55,660 --> 00:23:00,700
And I went to Manhattan, and I'm
still not 25. I couldn't rent a car.

372
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,240
So when I went to all these markets,
I had to find a cab driver willing

373
00:23:04,270 --> 00:23:07,690
to stay with me, and I would pay
them cash to drive these, all these

374
00:23:07,690 --> 00:23:10,360
different properties because I was
too young to. That's interesting.

375
00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:14,740
Manhattan. It didn't matter, so I show up at the Chelsea

376
00:23:14,740 --> 00:23:18,430
market building,
which is 1,000,000ft², and,

377
00:23:18,430 --> 00:23:25,510
the owner, Irwin, is there, and he's
waiting for his lender, and it's me.

378
00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:29,620
And I'm a kid, and I think I got a
clipboard with my form to write down.

379
00:23:29,620 --> 00:23:34,150
I think I've got my HP 12 C. Yeah.
And he introduces himself and

380
00:23:34,150 --> 00:23:37,030
he's very kind.
And he says,

381
00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:39,730
he's looking at his watch, you know.
When's the rest of your team getting

382
00:23:39,730 --> 00:23:43,180
here? I said, I am the team.
And he looked at me.

383
00:23:43,270 --> 00:23:47,050
He said, wait, you're underwriting
this building? I said, yes, sir.

384
00:23:47,050 --> 00:23:49,630
And he kind of chuckled.
He said, well, let's go.

385
00:23:49,630 --> 00:23:51,520
And he took me through the whole
property. And did you.

386
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,950
Learn something from that meeting?
You know what?

387
00:23:53,950 --> 00:23:58,420, I learned a lot about,
you know, it was kind of an

388
00:23:58,420 --> 00:24:03,280
introduction to, a number of
aspects of the lending world, how

389
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:08,590
these deals were getting processed, how decisions were made,

390
00:24:08,590 --> 00:24:11,260
relationships.
You know, he was very surprised.

391
00:24:11,260 --> 00:24:14,380
I think he thought he had a
relationship, and he did,

392
00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:19,150
but he was extremely gracious, and he and he took me on a tour

393
00:24:19,150 --> 00:24:22,870
of a property that I'll never forget.
This had a, you know, it had a

394
00:24:22,870 --> 00:24:27,220
recording studio, and Leibovitz
had a photography studio there.

395
00:24:27,220 --> 00:24:32,110
The show was from HBO,
had its studio being filmed,

396
00:24:32,290 --> 00:24:36,730
and just all kinds of facets of the
building, very, very complicated.

397
00:24:36,730 --> 00:24:41,500
And, and then he was kind enough to, to invite me and my,

398
00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:44,140
my friend was we were going to the
Yankees game that night, and he said,

399
00:24:44,140 --> 00:24:46,420
well, after the game, come down
to my restaurant and have dinner.

400
00:24:46,810 --> 00:24:49,990
And so we went down to his
restaurant and we didn't think

401
00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:52,150
he was treating us.
And we were, you know,

402
00:24:52,150 --> 00:24:55,510
very budget conscious.
So we had a very,

403
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,870
small meal, right.
And maybe a glass of wine or a.

404
00:24:58,980 --> 00:25:01,830
A year or something. Nothing lavish.
And of course, he picked up the tab

405
00:25:01,830 --> 00:25:06,360
and, and I left there thinking,
you know, the here I am, right?

406
00:25:06,510 --> 00:25:09,240, a young person just learning
real estate.

407
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:14,280
And I'm underwriting 1,000,000
square foot property in downtown

408
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,310
New York City, so it was it's one thing

409
00:25:17,310 --> 00:25:19,080
that I'll never forget.
It was quite an experience.

410
00:25:19,110 --> 00:25:22,530
It's a great experience.
So how long were you there?

411
00:25:22,950 --> 00:25:25,710
I was I was there about three years.
Yeah. Three years.

412
00:25:25,710 --> 00:25:28,230
And then of course,
CMS was exploding.

413
00:25:28,230 --> 00:25:31,350
And that's when these investment
banks brought the underwriting

414
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:33,630
in-house.
And so the need for our services

415
00:25:33,630 --> 00:25:37,260
started to go down and down, and then there were probably

416
00:25:37,260 --> 00:25:41,670
about ten of us, at,
at our and we all started to go

417
00:25:41,670 --> 00:25:44,670
our different ways, one went to HF,

418
00:25:44,670 --> 00:25:48,930
one went to Trans Western, a couple
went to Goldman Sachs in New York.

419
00:25:49,470 --> 00:25:55,290, one went to run Fortress Special
Assets program, one went to FBR.

420
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,960
So do you stay in touch with
these guys? We still do. Yeah.

421
00:25:57,990 --> 00:26:00,360
That's great. It's a good one, it was a great,

422
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:04,200
great network. And then I went.
And then I went to ASB capital.

423
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,580, and again, I think that was
another, why ESB.

424
00:26:08,580 --> 00:26:13,890
I think that was another,
another job that I found it was,

425
00:26:13,890 --> 00:26:18,780
it was an advertised opportunity
and it looked like an interesting,

426
00:26:18,990 --> 00:26:22,440, next step for me to go from
learning real estate from three

427
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:27,060
years to going and working with, with an investment office.

428
00:26:28,110 --> 00:26:31,950, and then this is where my
this is where I, I sat down to

429
00:26:31,950 --> 00:26:34,740
interview and I said, this is what
I'm going to do. Real estate.

430
00:26:34,740 --> 00:26:38,580
Like I was falling in love with it.
I found it to be easy to understand.

431
00:26:38,580 --> 00:26:42,690
I felt that I got it, in terms of underwriting and

432
00:26:42,690 --> 00:26:48,990
value, and then this is where my,
you know, my, my years and years

433
00:26:48,990 --> 00:26:52,710
of summer construction,
kind of came full circle.

434
00:26:52,710 --> 00:26:57,030
So I'm, you know, I'm downtown, ASB at the time was in the

435
00:26:57,030 --> 00:27:00,840
evening star building,
1101 Pennsylvania Avenue.

436
00:27:01,290 --> 00:27:04,980
So I go and I'm interviewing.
My first interview was with one

437
00:27:04,980 --> 00:27:07,890
of the managing directors.
His name's John Graham,

438
00:27:09,030 --> 00:27:11,310
and I'm sitting in his office,
and he's got a nice, you know,

439
00:27:11,310 --> 00:27:14,310
these are nice formal offices.
ISB, Pennsylvania Avenue was

440
00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:16,800
very formal office.
It used to be a very big

441
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:22,620
investment bank in Washington DC.
And, up on the wall behind

442
00:27:22,620 --> 00:27:25,470
the managing director is a
picture of an office building.

443
00:27:25,770 --> 00:27:28,440
And that office building was
called West Quest,

444
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,950
and it's in Columbia, Maryland.
And I'm just chatting with John.

445
00:27:32,250 --> 00:27:35,940, John, scram.
And I said, you know,

446
00:27:35,940 --> 00:27:38,130
I said, I know that building.
And he said,

447
00:27:38,130 --> 00:27:40,110
how do you know that building?
I said, well, I worked there one

448
00:27:40,110 --> 00:27:43,800
summer, during its construction.
And, you know, I remember one of the

449
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,590
projects, we had to cut the slab
and we had to take some drainage

450
00:27:46,590 --> 00:27:49,230
pipe and do all this stuff.
And yeah, that was that was a

451
00:27:49,230 --> 00:27:51,360
great project to work on.
And he looked at me and he says,

452
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:56,190
well, we own that building.
And so my experience of,

453
00:27:56,190 --> 00:27:59,940
of working and again,
my father was a union tradesman.

454
00:28:00,420 --> 00:28:04,020, and now I'm sitting in the
office of a union investment

455
00:28:04,020 --> 00:28:08,640
shop who's whose goal is to take
the union pension fund money on

456
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,090
behalf of people like my father,
and invest their retirement

457
00:28:12,090 --> 00:28:15,330
funds into assets that are,
you know, worthwhile assets,

458
00:28:15,330 --> 00:28:19,200
but also create union jobs.
And I thought this this is now a

459
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,170
full circle moment for me.
That's cool. Yeah.

460
00:28:22,830 --> 00:28:24,510,
and that's when I decided I wanted

461
00:28:24,510 --> 00:28:27,120
this is what I want my career to be.
I want to be in real estate,

462
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:29,940
and I want to learn this business.
And,

463
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,360
and it just felt sort of good.
It felt like it kind of got to that

464
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:36,930
moment where I had some clarity, and I was no longer thinking,

465
00:28:36,930 --> 00:28:39,840
what's the next step?
What should I explore next? So.

466
00:28:40,020 --> 00:28:45,540
So you came from the debt world with
our. Was this an equity, job?

467
00:28:45,540 --> 00:28:48,210
Were you investing in equities
or were you doing debt as well?

468
00:28:48,210 --> 00:28:53,070
No, this was this was 100% equity.
And so my job, I started as an

469
00:28:53,070 --> 00:28:59,160
analyst, and my job was to help
underwrite and help support the team

470
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:06,150
as we were originating JV equity
investments with developers,

471
00:29:06,150 --> 00:29:09,930
predominantly in union markets,
if not all union markets.

472
00:29:09,930 --> 00:29:14,790
I say predominantly because some of
them were like Washington DC was

473
00:29:14,790 --> 00:29:18,630
used to be all union and like many
markets that started to dwindle.

474
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,840
And so we were we were
struggling to find those markets

475
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,980
where union labor was,
was radical and somewhat affordable.

476
00:29:25,980 --> 00:29:32,880
So Boston, New York, new Jersey,
Chicago, Detroit, Saint Louis,

477
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,250
these are all markets that I was
working in.

478
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:40,920
And, and so I really learned
how to, I really learned a lot.

479
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,710
I started to learn about development.
I thought I learned a lot about

480
00:29:43,710 --> 00:29:46,590
development, but I realized that I
it was just the tip of the iceberg

481
00:29:46,590 --> 00:29:50,790
and what development really means.
But I was meeting with developers,

482
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,960, understanding their projects,
understanding their thought process,

483
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,020, and then thinking about how
we partner with those developers.

484
00:29:58,020 --> 00:30:03,580
It was very. Racial equity, you know, 95.5 or most ground.

485
00:30:03,580 --> 00:30:06,040
Up deals. Done?
Mostly, mostly ground up deals.

486
00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:11,440, and it was office,
office, retail.

487
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,620
Retail is always difficult for unions
because of the tenant improvement.

488
00:30:14,650 --> 00:30:18,970
Did you take entitlement risk, we did not. No, we did not.

489
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,770
So you would wait until they had
something.

490
00:30:20,770 --> 00:30:24,340
We we were brought into all of
these deals once entitlements

491
00:30:24,340 --> 00:30:26,020
were in place.
Sometimes we were brought into

492
00:30:26,020 --> 00:30:28,480
the deal before entitlements,
but we wouldn't close until

493
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,180
entitlements were achieved.
So we weren't taking that risk.

494
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,250
Even if unions were pushing real hard
to get something done, they did.

495
00:30:36,250 --> 00:30:39,850
You know, because what I've read
and heard and I'm correct me if I'm

496
00:30:39,850 --> 00:30:45,220
wrong, but some union advisers,
listened very carefully to what the

497
00:30:45,220 --> 00:30:48,640
unions have to say about a project
that's really important to them,

498
00:30:49,060 --> 00:30:53,230
and they might lean over to get
a deal done a little bit more,

499
00:30:53,410 --> 00:30:58,690
perhaps just because it's really
important to their investors. Yeah.

500
00:30:58,690 --> 00:31:06,370
And and there was a lot of pressure, oftentimes it came in markets

501
00:31:06,370 --> 00:31:12,490
where there was a union premium and
it made it made the returns a bit

502
00:31:12,670 --> 00:31:16,240
more difficult to justify. Right.
And we had the pressure to get

503
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,750
that project done because it
helps support the union jobs.

504
00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:24,040
There was a generally when I was
there,

505
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,750
about a 20% premium for a union
project over a non-union bridge.

506
00:31:28,750 --> 00:31:32,320
Is that across the board with all
trades or usually in some heaviest

507
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,400
in some trades, and not as it was.
Generally across the board?

508
00:31:36,670 --> 00:31:40,690, and again, given my,
my background and my knowledge,

509
00:31:40,780 --> 00:31:45,760, union construction was a more.
They were more skilled tradesmen.

510
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,740
Yes.
And the quality of the product

511
00:31:47,740 --> 00:31:50,200
was better.
And so you are investing in you are

512
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,330
investing in legacy type assets.
Right?

513
00:31:52,330 --> 00:31:55,600
We weren't investing in merchant
build type properties.

514
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,720
And so you could justify that
investment.

515
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,600
And sometimes the time frames
shortened right because of the

516
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:08,620
expertise. Right. Right, right.
Yeah. Yeah, and so yeah.

517
00:32:08,620 --> 00:32:13,660
So ASB, I was there for six years, and when I left, you know, I,

518
00:32:13,660 --> 00:32:17,020
I had learned a lot about structuring
deals, how to structure deals,

519
00:32:17,020 --> 00:32:20,710
how to how to share risk, I had an appreciation,

520
00:32:20,710 --> 00:32:23,890
some appreciation for what
developers brought to the table.

521
00:32:23,890 --> 00:32:26,440
I learned a lot more.
What were the unique deals that you

522
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,590
did there that you can remember?
You know, there was a couple in New

523
00:32:29,590 --> 00:32:34,120
York, there were two condos
that we did with a developer.

524
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,050, her name's Ronnie Hackett, she's actually on my early

525
00:32:38,050 --> 00:32:42,460
product council today, and these were in the Chelsea

526
00:32:42,460 --> 00:32:50,050
market, and they were,
and Chelsea at the time was emerging,

527
00:32:50,050 --> 00:32:53,890
and it was sort of becoming no
longer the gritty area.

528
00:32:53,890 --> 00:32:56,860
It was becoming kind of more of
a upscale,

529
00:32:56,860 --> 00:32:59,980
upscale family type place. Right.
Which a lot of the locals kind

530
00:32:59,980 --> 00:33:03,400
of didn't really appreciate, but I really enjoyed looking

531
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,460
at projects in Manhattan and,
and learning that market.

532
00:33:06,460 --> 00:33:10,420
It's such a unique area, and just going through the

533
00:33:10,420 --> 00:33:14,740
development process there,
it's it's own sort of right world.

534
00:33:14,740 --> 00:33:18,160
Right? It sure is.
You can't compare that market to

535
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,450
any other market in the country.
So, so those those were

536
00:33:22,450 --> 00:33:26,830
really fun projects to work on.
Was there a big gap between union and

537
00:33:26,830 --> 00:33:32,080
non-union labor in New York City?
It was a bit tighter. Yeah.

538
00:33:32,110 --> 00:33:35,050
As we talked. Yeah it was.
And same with Chicago.

539
00:33:35,410 --> 00:33:37,720
Especially for the larger structures.
Yeah.

540
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,890
Because, you know, you need union
labor for some of those buildings.

541
00:33:41,890 --> 00:33:45,970
The superstructures are such that.
Yeah, that you, you couldn't find

542
00:33:45,970 --> 00:33:49,300
labor that understood it well
enough unless they were trained in.

543
00:33:49,420 --> 00:33:51,880
And there were there was a
culture in New York City as well

544
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,660
within the trades that if you
were doing a project non-union,

545
00:33:55,660 --> 00:33:59,710
you were going to get some
backlash and you didn't want that.

546
00:34:00,370 --> 00:34:02,890, and so we learned that as well.
We weren't doing.

547
00:34:02,890 --> 00:34:07,630
But, you didn't want to be the
investor coming into that kind

548
00:34:07,630 --> 00:34:12,610
of market and funding a project
where the developer explicitly was

549
00:34:12,610 --> 00:34:15,310
trying to do everything non-union.
And by the way,

550
00:34:15,310 --> 00:34:18,580
there's no halfway right.
There's no we're going to do

551
00:34:18,610 --> 00:34:20,560
we're going to do these trades
union and these trades.

552
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,860
Now it's. All in. It's all. In.
Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.

553
00:34:25,090 --> 00:34:28,180
So you've got a lot of business
done that way.

554
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,670 and you learn what's interesting.
So you go to from workouts in

555
00:34:33,670 --> 00:34:39,220
debt into union investing
it was it purely union or did

556
00:34:39,220 --> 00:34:44,770
you do non-union vesting to it.
It was it was pure purely union 100%.

557
00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:48,460
Okay. And it was a challenge.
It was a challenge because every

558
00:34:48,460 --> 00:34:53,020
year it got harder and harder to
find those union jobs,

559
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,040
because just the union trades
were starting to,

560
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,890
to dwindle in each of these markets.
So at some point you went back

561
00:35:00,890 --> 00:35:03,140
and got your MBA.
Was it right after that?

562
00:35:03,770 --> 00:35:06,530
It was while I was at ASB and it
was great.

563
00:35:06,770 --> 00:35:10,520, I decided to, you know,
so I studied political science.

564
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,760
I didn't have any finance background.
And here I am now, and I'm working on

565
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,990
these complicated deal structures.
And you're talking a lot of money,

566
00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:23,000
and I thought I should fine tune
my education by getting an MBA.

567
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,860
And I focused on finance.
So I deliberately went to now get,

568
00:35:27,860 --> 00:35:31,970
you know, the academic side of the
business so that I was, you know,

569
00:35:31,970 --> 00:35:36,410
more adept at these models and
understanding economics.

570
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,920
And it just so happened that the
University of Maryland, Robert H.

571
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:45,200
Smith School was starting a evening
MBA program at the Ronald Reagan

572
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,170
Building, which was across the
street from my office. Perfect.

573
00:35:48,170 --> 00:35:54,470
So I enrolled into that, and I
would and I lived on Capitol Hill.

574
00:35:54,470 --> 00:35:57,650
So I lived on Capitol Hill, I worked
on Pennsylvania Avenue, and I was

575
00:35:57,650 --> 00:36:01,730
going to school across the street.
So if you think about time

576
00:36:01,730 --> 00:36:05,750
management, that was very helpful, so I was able to leave work,

577
00:36:05,750 --> 00:36:10,040
go to class, go home, study,
wake up and repeat.

578
00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:14,060
Did it help you to get an MBA?
It did. Was it a benefit?

579
00:36:14,060 --> 00:36:17,270
Yeah, absolutely not.
And not just the finance.

580
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:20,930
There were a lot of other business
aspects that you learn and,

581
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,730
you know, marketing, for example,
and you get into a lot of economics

582
00:36:25,730 --> 00:36:30,110
and supply and demand, and I think
not necessarily to apply these

583
00:36:30,110 --> 00:36:33,200
concepts on my day to day basis,
but it gives you a lot of different

584
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,140
ways to think about business in
general, and a lot of different ways

585
00:36:36,140 --> 00:36:40,910
to think about local economies,
because you might be investing in a,

586
00:36:40,940 --> 00:36:43,970
you know, a specific project,
but you're really investing in

587
00:36:43,970 --> 00:36:47,360
the market as well, and you need
to understand those dynamics.

588
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,480
And so it gave me it gave me a
little foundation that I think

589
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,050
helped me throughout my career.
Well, I'm going to guess I'll just

590
00:36:54,050 --> 00:36:58,070
speculate that you wouldn't be in
senior management without that today.

591
00:36:58,070 --> 00:37:01,010
It's just a guess, perhaps.
I think it helps. Yeah.

592
00:37:01,010 --> 00:37:03,050
Yeah, I think it helps.
Because you broaden your

593
00:37:03,050 --> 00:37:06,620
perspective a bit. Yeah. Yeah, certainly doesn't hurt.

594
00:37:07,130 --> 00:37:08,630
Yeah, it certainly doesn't hurt.
Yeah.

595
00:37:08,810 --> 00:37:11,780
So you were at ASB for six years.
You said hum.

596
00:37:12,530 --> 00:37:16,070,
what made you want to make a change?

597
00:37:16,610 --> 00:37:22,340
Well, so again, another,
bring it back moment.

598
00:37:22,370 --> 00:37:28,460, so a couple of the folks that
are were starting up a business,

599
00:37:28,460 --> 00:37:32,600
and this is what this is the fair
companies and and I was in a very

600
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,990
good position at ASB capital.
I think I was doing fairly well.

601
00:37:36,410 --> 00:37:40,460
I was getting promoted,
went from analyst to associate to VP.

602
00:37:41,450 --> 00:37:46,160, and I was offered this
opportunity to leave that and

603
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:51,290
join a complete startup,
and go into a market that,

604
00:37:51,290 --> 00:37:55,550
was brand new in the financing of
real estate hadn't existed before.

605
00:37:56,330 --> 00:38:00,140
And it was it was a risk moment.
And I think everybody should

606
00:38:00,140 --> 00:38:03,230
have that moment in their career
to to take a risk and,

607
00:38:03,230 --> 00:38:05,750
and give something a chance.
And it was the right time for me.

608
00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:10,430
Right, single. No kids.
I could have,

609
00:38:10,430 --> 00:38:13,700
I could have I could afford to,
you know, fall and and be able

610
00:38:13,700 --> 00:38:16,940
to get back up and it wouldn't
have implications beyond myself.

611
00:38:17,810 --> 00:38:22,610, so I decided to to go for it.
And so I spent, two years.

612
00:38:22,610 --> 00:38:28,730
And so now I'm still in real estate.
But this is a business where, the

613
00:38:28,730 --> 00:38:34,340
bear companies who I worked for was
in partnership with Manny Friedman,

614
00:38:34,340 --> 00:38:38,720
who was one of the founders of FBR, so Manny started Ejf Capital.

615
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:44,510
And so we were taking Trust Preferred
Securities, which is predominantly a

616
00:38:44,510 --> 00:38:50,150
commercial banking financing tool.
It, it looks and feels like

617
00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:54,560
equity because it's 30 year debt
and it's at a low rate.

618
00:38:55,010 --> 00:38:59,570
And so banks would use it to
raise capital without diluting

619
00:38:59,570 --> 00:39:02,600
their shareholders.
So it gave us some flexibility in

620
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,100
capital without having some really
strong long term permanent debt.

621
00:39:07,100 --> 00:39:09,440
And so it sat in between on the
balance sheet.

622
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,220
And the thought was let's take this
financing instrument and let's

623
00:39:13,220 --> 00:39:16,460
introduce it to the real estate world
for public and private REITs and

624
00:39:16,460 --> 00:39:21,500
large portfolio holding companies.
So my team was on the origination

625
00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:26,510
side, and Manny's team was on
the pooling and selling of the

626
00:39:26,510 --> 00:39:29,120
securities structuring.
So we would we would originate

627
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,080
these pieces of paper, we would then put them into

628
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:39,290
collateralized debt obligations.
Right. So 2007, 2006, 2007.

629
00:39:39,290 --> 00:39:42,350
So we put them in CDOs, and then
they were sold around the world.

630
00:39:42,980 --> 00:39:47,210
And I spent two years doing this.
We, we had two different,

631
00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:50,690
securities.
The first one, we raised 125 million,

632
00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:53,180
and then we got a line of credit
for a billion.

633
00:39:53,540 --> 00:39:55,730
So we're leveraging ourselves
ten times.

634
00:39:55,730 --> 00:39:58,010
Were you competing with us with
the debt capital?

635
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,060
Were you banging heads with, you know,

636
00:40:01,060 --> 00:40:05,740
it was interesting because at first,
putting this capital was very

637
00:40:05,740 --> 00:40:09,520
challenging because at the time,
rates were relatively low.

638
00:40:10,030 --> 00:40:13,150, people could people could
get equity instruments that were

639
00:40:13,150 --> 00:40:15,460
very favorable, there was other debt

640
00:40:15,460 --> 00:40:18,550
instruments that were favorable.
So we're trying to wedge ourselves

641
00:40:18,550 --> 00:40:23,740
in between two competing worlds, and the idea was flexibility

642
00:40:23,740 --> 00:40:27,010
working capital. Right.
Kind of bring it in and take it out.

643
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:30,850, and there were 1 or 2 other
competitors trying to compete

644
00:40:30,850 --> 00:40:33,100
with us in the direct space,
but really nobody else.

645
00:40:33,100 --> 00:40:35,980
So it was really about selling
this new instrument, right?

646
00:40:35,980 --> 00:40:38,590
And bringing this new product to
the market.

647
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,540
And, and we successfully
originated about $2 billion of

648
00:40:43,540 --> 00:40:49,180
product over the two years, and we were investing in a lot

649
00:40:49,180 --> 00:40:51,970
of subprime mortgage companies,
a lot of other companies that

650
00:40:51,970 --> 00:40:54,370
were highly leveraged.
So you can see where the story

651
00:40:54,370 --> 00:40:57,850
is going, was it mostly residential real

652
00:40:57,850 --> 00:41:01,210
estate or what were you investing in?
We were doing some we did a

653
00:41:01,210 --> 00:41:03,670
couple of small mall REITs,

654
00:41:03,670 --> 00:41:06,760
we did a couple of private REIT's.
There were some out in California.

655
00:41:07,330 --> 00:41:10,930,
or more more family type structures

656
00:41:10,930 --> 00:41:14,920
that converted to a REIT business.
And so when you have the reach

657
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,950
structure, it's easier to lay in
the later in this capital across

658
00:41:17,950 --> 00:41:20,830
the portfolio. Got it.
It was difficult to put this

659
00:41:20,830 --> 00:41:24,640
capital to work for a portfolio
with the traditional setup where

660
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,480
everything's in a separate LLC.
Then we were then it got very

661
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,520
complicated.
We were trying to form these rollup

662
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,510
entities and and then it just it
was so much brain damage that the

663
00:41:34,510 --> 00:41:37,030
borrowers felt like, I don't want
to spend the money to do this.

664
00:41:37,030 --> 00:41:39,730
That's the FBR roots there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

665
00:41:39,730 --> 00:41:42,280
There's a lot of complicated
structuring going on behind the

666
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,530
scenes.
And of course FBR is groundbreaking

667
00:41:44,530 --> 00:41:49,690
and a lot of the business, and so it was it was an

668
00:41:49,690 --> 00:41:52,120
exciting time.
It was a very different time for me.

669
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,650
And, you know, we would we would
originate these deals and then

670
00:41:56,650 --> 00:42:00,160
they would get rated by,
you know, Moody's and Fitch.

671
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,820
Sure. And then it would get sold.
But no one asked about the real

672
00:42:03,820 --> 00:42:07,090
estate at this time.
And this is kind of scary to think

673
00:42:07,090 --> 00:42:09,520
about, but it's part of the collapse
when the when the product was sold,

674
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,340
when the bonds were sold,
most investors weren't even

675
00:42:12,340 --> 00:42:15,580
allowed to look at the collateral.
They saw a tranche and they

676
00:42:15,580 --> 00:42:17,770
invested in a tranche.
And that tranche had a rating,

677
00:42:17,770 --> 00:42:20,830
and they were applying their capital
to that rating for that return.

678
00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:24,850
And I think it was actually
Jamie Dimon himself.

679
00:42:24,850 --> 00:42:27,880
I think he had just stepped in
as the CEO of JP Morgan,

680
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,730
where we had a line of credit.
I think he called Manny Friedman

681
00:42:31,180 --> 00:42:34,960
and said, lights are out.
I mean, overnight lights are out.

682
00:42:35,230 --> 00:42:38,170
Line of credit shut down.
You cannot. Tober 2008.

683
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,630
You cannot use that capacity any
longer.

684
00:42:41,140 --> 00:42:44,500
And so just as quickly as it started,
it ended.

685
00:42:44,830 --> 00:42:49,480
Was this during the Lehman crash or
earlier that now. This was, this.

686
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,690
Was at that time. Oh, yeah.
This is the end of 2007 and then

687
00:42:52,690 --> 00:42:56,590
into 2008.
Well, bear hit in March that year.

688
00:42:56,620 --> 00:43:01,690, they were out.
And so we knew there was a

689
00:43:01,690 --> 00:43:04,480
crisis at that moment.
And then, of course, it got worse

690
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,330
and worse as the year moved on.
And when Lehman went out,

691
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,890
we knew that was that was it?
Yeah. It's frightening times.

692
00:43:12,190 --> 00:43:15,700
I'll never forget.
I mean, I remember reading,

693
00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:19,930
the Secretary of the Treasury at
the time, I've forgotten his

694
00:43:19,930 --> 00:43:23,950
name right now, but,
he said the world economy could

695
00:43:23,950 --> 00:43:29,140
crash literally because of this.
And it was pretty frightening

696
00:43:29,140 --> 00:43:33,400
because we didn't know what that
meant for any of us.

697
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,610
Our personal income, savings,
whatever it was,

698
00:43:36,610 --> 00:43:39,970
it was pretty scary time.
So what did you do at that moment?

699
00:43:39,970 --> 00:43:43,630
Yeah.
Well, so this was this was

700
00:43:43,630 --> 00:43:46,420
one of the this was the only time
in my career where I experienced

701
00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:49,300
this abrupt shutdown. Right.
And it had to be done. Right.

702
00:43:49,300 --> 00:43:51,700
There wasn't no,
of course there was no black or

703
00:43:51,700 --> 00:43:54,850
it was very black and white.
So the company came together and we

704
00:43:54,850 --> 00:43:57,370
had a conversation and we all said,
okay, that's it.

705
00:43:57,370 --> 00:43:59,470
And we all laughed, right.
It is all dissolved.

706
00:44:01,180 --> 00:44:04,840, and then ironically,
you know, Manny is brilliant.

707
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,180, he went into the market and
started buying all of the stuff

708
00:44:07,180 --> 00:44:09,760
that we were selling at a severe
discount. Right.

709
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,020
And so he's got his hedge fund
and doing his thing, but I,

710
00:44:14,710 --> 00:44:17,920
I felt like I was so far away from
real estate, even though I was

711
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,890
talking to real estate companies.
And I'm meeting with trades,

712
00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:24,970
and there's real estate's in the
background, I really wanted to get

713
00:44:24,970 --> 00:44:29,980
back to the bricks and mortar, I explored a couple of things.

714
00:44:29,980 --> 00:44:31,240
You know,
there wasn't a lot going on.

715
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,250
A lot of people were taking breaks.
I traveled a bit.

716
00:44:33,250 --> 00:44:36,400
I was going abroad, talking to
investors in other countries,

717
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,130
thinking maybe there's a way to get
some capital and bring it back to the

718
00:44:39,130 --> 00:44:44,080
US to find opportunities. Right, a lot of distress in the market.

719
00:44:45,100 --> 00:44:50,020, and then ultimately,
I went back to a relationship

720
00:44:50,020 --> 00:44:53,470
that was started at ASB capital.
While at ASB,

721
00:44:53,500 --> 00:44:57,790
we invested with Dan McCaffrey,
in the court factory in Pittsburgh.

722
00:44:58,780 --> 00:45:02,350, and I had a lot of respect
for McCaffrey.

723
00:45:02,350 --> 00:45:05,950
And, you know, I remember Robert
Bellinger, even when we were

724
00:45:05,950 --> 00:45:08,980
presenting the deal to investment
Committee saying, if we can get a

725
00:45:08,980 --> 00:45:12,160
deal done with with Dan McCaffrey,
we've done something because of his,

726
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,480
you know, reputation in the market.
So I had a good relationship

727
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,520
with Dan.
I talked to him and said,

728
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,870
look, there's not a lot going on.
And you have an office in DC.

729
00:45:22,870 --> 00:45:27,430
I'm here in DC.
Maybe I can try to bring in some

730
00:45:27,430 --> 00:45:29,380
business.
We could work on some deals together,

731
00:45:29,380 --> 00:45:33,970
and we sort of tiptoe into maybe
what could become a longer term

732
00:45:33,970 --> 00:45:36,610
relationship.
And that's exactly what happened.

733
00:45:36,610 --> 00:45:40,900
So a couple of deals surfaced, I was working with some of my

734
00:45:40,900 --> 00:45:45,790
relationships that were local,
and then I ended up being at

735
00:45:45,790 --> 00:45:53,290
McCaffrey for ten years.
And it's funny, at at ASB capital,

736
00:45:53,290 --> 00:45:55,840
I was taught. Right.
And this is what I alluded to with I

737
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:57,700
thought I was learning development,
but I really was.

738
00:45:57,700 --> 00:46:00,550
And I really started to learn
development when I was at McCaffrey

739
00:46:00,550 --> 00:46:03,070
and what it really means.
But at ASB capital,

740
00:46:03,070 --> 00:46:07,090
you're taught, there's no
such thing as sweat equity.

741
00:46:07,390 --> 00:46:10,720
And if a developer is not writing a
check for 3 or 4 million, they don't

742
00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:14,530
have any skin in the game. Right?
And so I came to realize very quickly

743
00:46:14,530 --> 00:46:18,340
that sweat equity is very real
and it's very underappreciated.

744
00:46:18,460 --> 00:46:21,400, you know, by the capital markets,
the folks that are sitting at

745
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,090
the large investment funds,
if they haven't sat in the shoes of

746
00:46:25,090 --> 00:46:29,800
what it takes to take a project from
there's a piece of land or there's a

747
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:35,470
site that I like to creating a vision
and then taking that vision through

748
00:46:35,470 --> 00:46:38,740
the planning process and getting
your architects and your engineers

749
00:46:38,740 --> 00:46:43,450
and getting everybody on board,
and constantly getting pushback

750
00:46:43,450 --> 00:46:47,080
and pushback and facing headwinds.
But sticking with that vision,

751
00:46:47,710 --> 00:46:52,120, and ultimately 3 or 4 years,
you get approval, right?

752
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,310
And then you just start the
project then.

753
00:46:54,310 --> 00:46:58,840
So, it was it was it was
great experience.

754
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,630
It was very eye opening for me.
I learned a lot.

755
00:47:02,650 --> 00:47:05,560, I think Dan,
Dan McCaffrey always called it.

756
00:47:05,770 --> 00:47:09,220
We got to fly in the gray. Right?
Not a lot of clarity on what

757
00:47:09,220 --> 00:47:10,750
we're doing,
but we've got to fly in the gray.

758
00:47:10,750 --> 00:47:15,280
I like to think that we were fine.
We were finding opportunity between,

759
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:18,100
you know,
the method and the madness. Right.

760
00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:21,430
And I'm more on the method side.
I'm more the analytical

761
00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:25,060
structure person.
And and then you've got sort of

762
00:47:25,060 --> 00:47:28,750
the madness, which is I don't care
what we're facing, we're going

763
00:47:28,750 --> 00:47:31,660
to move this project forward.
And, we worked on a lot of

764
00:47:31,660 --> 00:47:35,770
exciting projects.
I worked on a number here locally.

765
00:47:36,220 --> 00:47:39,520, the last project that I
worked on was, up in your

766
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,580
neighborhood in Kensington.
It was my first senior housing

767
00:47:42,580 --> 00:47:44,860
project where we did the Solera
project.

768
00:47:45,700 --> 00:47:50,080, and then through those ten years,
you know, I was working on

769
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:54,250
developing a team here, we had at one point about 15

770
00:47:54,250 --> 00:47:57,370
employees locally, and we were
working on a lot of projects and

771
00:47:57,370 --> 00:48:01,780
getting a lot of opportunity.
And I was also working closely with

772
00:48:01,780 --> 00:48:06,040
the leadership team in Chicago and, working with the team there

773
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,310
on projects in Chicago, Denver.
And we were growing the

774
00:48:09,310 --> 00:48:12,460
portfolio in Pittsburgh.
So I was kind of had my feet in

775
00:48:12,460 --> 00:48:15,250
a lot of different things and a
lot of great experiences.

776
00:48:15,250 --> 00:48:20,890
What's interesting to me is,
how your career evolved, and I'm

777
00:48:20,890 --> 00:48:26,500
going to go I'm going to just kind of
do a little path here as a as it

778
00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:32,560
starts out, you you learn starting
out the RA in the workout area.

779
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,070
So you saw risk at a different
level there.

780
00:48:36,070 --> 00:48:39,550
You saw that, you know,
people are willing to do this

781
00:48:39,550 --> 00:48:44,050
with these very tough assets, then you go into the into the

782
00:48:44,050 --> 00:48:48,580
union investing business, which
is a whole different orientation

783
00:48:48,580 --> 00:48:52,990
to the marketplace and, and
investing from a union perspective.

784
00:48:53,170 --> 00:48:59,110
Then you go into this really,
you know, structured capital,

785
00:48:59,230 --> 00:49:04,660
you know, business, which is not real
estate, but more in the securities

786
00:49:04,660 --> 00:49:08,950
industry really is a structured
finance type business, really

787
00:49:08,950 --> 00:49:12,730
financial engineering as opposed
to real estate investing per se.

788
00:49:13,390 --> 00:49:17,290
And then you get really into the
bricks and sticks with,

789
00:49:17,290 --> 00:49:20,560
with with McCaffrey.
And, and McCaffrey was known as

790
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:25,630
somebody who was very cutting
edge pioneering really risk very

791
00:49:25,630 --> 00:49:30,160
high risk reward investor.
I mean, he, you know,

792
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:35,350
where the mall business once you had
the anchors, you're pretty good shape

793
00:49:35,350 --> 00:49:39,520
to get them all built and get at
least up what Dan did, as I recall.

794
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:44,290
And you can correct me if I'm wrong.
He would take sites that were,

795
00:49:44,500 --> 00:49:48,310
you know, completely different use,
different perspective and totally

796
00:49:48,310 --> 00:49:52,330
different thought process before and
then create something out of almost

797
00:49:52,330 --> 00:49:58,180
out of nothing to a lot of value, and so.

798
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:03,790
You know I remember the the across
formats gallery the project there.

799
00:50:03,820 --> 00:50:07,420
Now you did have an anchor.
You basically had a retail

800
00:50:07,420 --> 00:50:10,990
market there.
But you can probably cite 1 or 2

801
00:50:10,990 --> 00:50:14,140
projects where in Chicago
particularly or in Pittsburgh, you

802
00:50:14,140 --> 00:50:18,760
mentioned where it was a completely
different use before, and he had

803
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:24,010
the vision to come in and do that.
Now, where I'm going here is you

804
00:50:24,010 --> 00:50:27,550
be coming from your background.
Had to look at Dan like he was a

805
00:50:27,550 --> 00:50:31,240
martian, almost at some of the
things he'd bring into the and say,

806
00:50:31,240 --> 00:50:35,440
we're going to get this done.
I and you say,

807
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:40,030
how can how is where do you come
up with this ideas to do this?

808
00:50:40,030 --> 00:50:42,220
You know,
and you're coming from this,

809
00:50:42,220 --> 00:50:45,820
you know, very pragmatic background.
So how did that dialogue,

810
00:50:46,300 --> 00:50:49,810
how did that work out?
Sometimes, you. Know, it worked out.

811
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:53,620, but you're right.
There were no there were no easy

812
00:50:53,620 --> 00:50:56,260
projects. Right.
And when I say when I say

813
00:50:56,260 --> 00:51:00,880
development, there's a lot of
developers who have a product that

814
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,900
they like, and then they stamp
that product in various markets,

815
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:08,350
they find the sites, they've got
the the process down. They know.

816
00:51:08,350 --> 00:51:13,120
Right. It's still a challenge.
But, you know, one day,

817
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,660
you know, one day Dan could say,
I'm going to work on the market

818
00:51:16,660 --> 00:51:20,020
common in Clarendon, right,
which was big box retail. Right.

819
00:51:20,020 --> 00:51:22,420,
in the corridor back in the late 90s.

820
00:51:22,420 --> 00:51:27,190
And convert that to one of the
most awarded mixed use projects

821
00:51:27,190 --> 00:51:30,130
in the country.
And then the next day you're looking

822
00:51:30,130 --> 00:51:33,910
at, a project we worked on in
Pittsburgh, the Produce Terminal,

823
00:51:34,270 --> 00:51:38,860
which is an old produce terminal.
That's it's a single story building.

824
00:51:39,610 --> 00:51:45,160
It's 1600ft long, and it's just
nothing but loading docks, and

825
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,040
it's in this amazing neighborhood.
And Dan said, this is going to

826
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,160
be an amazing retail,
mixed use destination.

827
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,850
And he spent five years working
on that process. Right.

828
00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:00,940
And, and yeah, there was,
it was almost like,

829
00:52:01,150 --> 00:52:04,750
what's he going to what's next?
Right. What can we come up with next?

830
00:52:04,750 --> 00:52:09,460
And, you know, I think I think
Dan had the reputation that if

831
00:52:09,460 --> 00:52:12,520
someone had an idea, something that
they knew would probably be one

832
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,850
of the most challenging projects
to pursue and get approved.

833
00:52:16,420 --> 00:52:19,690
They think of Dan Collar, right,
and get it done.

834
00:52:19,810 --> 00:52:23,290
And I was, in some ways,
I was thinking about the growth of

835
00:52:23,290 --> 00:52:27,640
the company and how do we, you know,
how do we how do we think about a

836
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,850
path that might not be as risky?
Right.

837
00:52:30,850 --> 00:52:34,870
So have those risky projects and have
those legacy things, but also think

838
00:52:34,870 --> 00:52:39,370
about some projects that we can do
that are lower on the risk profile.

839
00:52:40,030 --> 00:52:44,260, and I thought maybe we could,
you know, try to do more garden style

840
00:52:44,260 --> 00:52:47,770
apartments or low rise apartments,
you know, stick over podium and

841
00:52:47,770 --> 00:52:50,800
200 unit type products.
And maybe we could come up with

842
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:52,900
something that's unique and we
could plant that in a few

843
00:52:52,900 --> 00:52:55,300
different markets, and that
could be some recurring revenue.

844
00:52:55,300 --> 00:52:59,500
But that was a model that just didn't
really fit with the McCaffery mold.

845
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:05,260, but yeah, you, when you
walk away from that experience and

846
00:53:05,260 --> 00:53:09,580
you look at projects that other
people would call somewhat ordinary

847
00:53:09,670 --> 00:53:13,450
things seem a little bit easier
and a little bit more achievable.

848
00:53:13,450 --> 00:53:17,260
But many of the projects that we
dealt with were, they were

849
00:53:17,260 --> 00:53:21,340
all exciting, they were all fun,
and they all took a lot of hard work.

850
00:53:21,340 --> 00:53:24,670
And, you know,
there was no stopping, right?

851
00:53:24,670 --> 00:53:29,920
Once, once that vision was conceived
and that project was getting pursued,

852
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,880
that that train was going.
So what roles did you play there?

853
00:53:34,090 --> 00:53:39,640
So originally, you know, I was,
I was sort of serving as finding

854
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:45,940
opportunity and, underwriting
opportunity and then thinking about

855
00:53:45,940 --> 00:53:50,230
how to structure the equity. Right.
So I took my, my experience from ASB

856
00:53:50,230 --> 00:53:55,090
capital, and I worked locally
with Dan's partner, Juan Cameron.

857
00:53:55,090 --> 00:53:59,560
And Juan, one is a great bird dog.
So Juan, sort of the visionary,

858
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,280
would find a deal and find something
that no one thought you could find.

859
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,670
And and then I we worked really
well together because then I would

860
00:54:06,670 --> 00:54:08,950
look at it and think, okay, well,
here's how we're gonna here's how

861
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:11,680
we're gonna get it financed and
here's how we can structure it.

862
00:54:11,830 --> 00:54:15,340
So spending a lot of time on the
structuring and thinking about

863
00:54:15,340 --> 00:54:19,930
how we could, get value from
the risk that was taken,

864
00:54:19,930 --> 00:54:24,550
I came up with a couple of different
ways where we could sort of enhance

865
00:54:24,550 --> 00:54:28,360
our equity position in deals by
the gain and the value of the land

866
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,430
through all of the hard work,
which, you know, is something

867
00:54:30,430 --> 00:54:33,130
that not all developers had done,

868
00:54:33,130 --> 00:54:36,670
so we were sort of getting a little
bit creative on our structuring,

869
00:54:37,390 --> 00:54:40,960
and then we were sort of thinking
about how do we grow the business.

870
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,510
There's a couple of different
platforms on one property

871
00:54:43,510 --> 00:54:46,930
management and development,
and we had in-house leasing.

872
00:54:47,620 --> 00:54:50,020, and we were, we were,
we were growing, you know,

873
00:54:50,020 --> 00:54:52,840
the company I think at one point
when I was there was probably 60

874
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,560
plus people, with offices,
you know, here a small office in

875
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:01,330
Pittsburgh and in Chicago.
I'll go and and so, you know,

876
00:55:01,330 --> 00:55:04,300
Dan and his partners were sort
of running the,

877
00:55:04,300 --> 00:55:08,080
the vision execution of the projects.
And then sort of the next level

878
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:12,130
of management was helping to
organize the team and,

879
00:55:12,130 --> 00:55:15,880
and get everybody on the same page
and kind of developing that culture.

880
00:55:16,690 --> 00:55:21,910, and, you know, it's it's I
mentioned method and madness, and

881
00:55:21,910 --> 00:55:24,550
it's always a little bit crazy when
you're working at a development shop

882
00:55:24,550 --> 00:55:27,100
and you're always kind of pivoting
and chasing different things.

883
00:55:27,100 --> 00:55:30,580
So, we were always pivoting
and being nimble.

884
00:55:32,230 --> 00:55:36,880, I would say towards, you know,
towards the end, you know, my,

885
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:41,680
my relationship with Dan,
was, was close and,

886
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:47,380
came family and we were talking about
the family dynamics of a business,

887
00:55:47,380 --> 00:55:51,700
talking about succession, and I was very involved with

888
00:55:51,700 --> 00:55:56,380
a lot of the conversations,
and just through my work at McCaffrey

889
00:55:56,380 --> 00:56:01,330
really gained an appreciation for
what it means, from a developer's

890
00:56:01,330 --> 00:56:04,960
point of view and a real estate
owner's point of view of that capital

891
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:09,970
and how significant that capital
is relative to a institutional

892
00:56:09,970 --> 00:56:13,360
investor who's got $1 billion fund
and how they view that capital.

893
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:19,180
And I think, when I was when
I was leaving McCaffrey and I was

894
00:56:19,390 --> 00:56:23,110
entertaining the idea of joining
the Chevy Chase Land Company,

895
00:56:23,410 --> 00:56:25,840
at first I thought, well,
I don't really want to go into a

896
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:27,280
family business, right?
Because that's,

897
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,530
I think the perception of the
Chevy Chase Land Company,

898
00:56:29,530 --> 00:56:32,320
it's a it's a family business.
And I quickly learned that,

899
00:56:32,470 --> 00:56:37,300
well, it's still in the family, it's still a family business.

900
00:56:37,300 --> 00:56:40,840
But the way it's structured from
a management point of view and

901
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,710
the way it's governed,
it's you're not dealing with,

902
00:56:44,740 --> 00:56:49,840
you know, the legacy founders and
you don't have that dynamic of of

903
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,410
other family members with different
ones or desires trying to move

904
00:56:53,410 --> 00:56:57,880
things in a different direction, and I felt that I could bring a

905
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:01,360
lot of value to this organization
because I understand the importance

906
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:04,000
of what the family assets mean.
Right.

907
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,970
I'm not here because I've got a
pot of money,

908
00:57:06,970 --> 00:57:10,390
of other people's money that I'm
allowed to invest and play with.

909
00:57:10,390 --> 00:57:15,790
I was brought in here as a fiduciary
to the family assets and to be a

910
00:57:15,790 --> 00:57:19,570
steward of their, their cause.
So so that was actually a nice

911
00:57:19,570 --> 00:57:23,200
transition for me to step into
this role. That's interesting.

912
00:57:23,530 --> 00:57:28,390, so you got understanding that the
family dynamics in another company

913
00:57:28,390 --> 00:57:33,580
to understand, you know, how it
works and how it might not work.

914
00:57:33,580 --> 00:57:38,230
And did you help that the
thought process with regard to,

915
00:57:39,430 --> 00:57:43,660, you know, the tax aspects of
this and the estate planning and

916
00:57:43,660 --> 00:57:46,600
some of that kind of thing,
were you involved in all in any

917
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:51,190
of that, of that thinking to.
To some extent, not a lot.

918
00:57:51,730 --> 00:57:57,700, and partly because each,
each individual asset, in my past

919
00:57:57,700 --> 00:58:01,090
has always been through the LLC.
So each asset had its own sort

920
00:58:01,090 --> 00:58:03,520
of planning, but you.
Weren't involved in the roll up

921
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:07,540
of those of that capital. No.
And and it hadn't happened. Right.

922
00:58:07,540 --> 00:58:10,600
It was discussed and it was
talked about, but those things

923
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:15,070
never actually took place.
So, but I became familiar

924
00:58:15,070 --> 00:58:17,830
with the concepts and,
and the different dynamics and

925
00:58:17,830 --> 00:58:21,160
how important they would be and,
and what it means to be a shareholder

926
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:24,820
and who should be a shareholder and
who should not be a shareholder.

927
00:58:24,820 --> 00:58:27,880
Right. That's interesting, and a lot of,

928
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:32,050
a lot of privately held family
offices have certain rules in place.

929
00:58:32,770 --> 00:58:35,560, like, for example,
one would be bloodline only.

930
00:58:36,430 --> 00:58:41,710
That way you would prevent in,
you know, 75 years later,

931
00:58:41,710 --> 00:58:45,460
through divorce or whatever
other relationships,

932
00:58:45,460 --> 00:58:49,090
you've got people that no one knows
and they're shareholders.

933
00:58:49,300 --> 00:58:52,480, and so there's a, there's a lot
that goes into the planning and, and

934
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:55,420
a lot of challenging conversations
that go a lot along with that,

935
00:58:55,420 --> 00:58:59,320
especially with a company that's
going through its first transition.

936
00:58:59,710 --> 00:59:04,510
I'm here and you know we're talking
six seventh generation shareholders.

937
00:59:04,510 --> 00:59:06,160
Right.
Because the company was founded

938
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:11,320
in 1890.
So, coming in to Chevy Chase

939
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:15,400
Land Company,
how did you what were you told when

940
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,790
you came in and about corporate
structure and how that worked?

941
00:59:18,790 --> 00:59:23,200
And and then what what was your role?
I mean, how did you you already

942
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,570
talked about your current role,
but how when you came in,

943
00:59:25,570 --> 00:59:28,300
was it different then than it is now?
And that was, what, three years,

944
00:59:28,300 --> 00:59:31,510
3 or 4 years ago? Yeah.
July of 2020. Okay.

945
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:36,220, so the the sequence I had lunch
with the chairman of the board in

946
00:59:36,220 --> 00:59:40,390
January of 2020 as a meet and greet.
At Cape Cod time.

947
00:59:40,420 --> 00:59:43,090, that was Scott Price.
Scott price. Okay. Yep.

948
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,240, and Kate was on on the board
for a couple of years.

949
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:51,220
She she just stepped down, and then we,

950
00:59:51,220 --> 00:59:54,190
we had a great conversation, and then
he called me and said, you know,

951
00:59:54,190 --> 00:59:58,090
we're actually we're going to start
a formal search for a new CEO.

952
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:03,840
And then I spent several months
meeting with the entire board

953
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,020
and some of the management team,
and it was all virtual because this

954
01:00:07,020 --> 01:00:10,200
this started after pandemic. Right?
And so we're in the middle of the

955
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:14,550
pandemic, and I even offered to
meet some of the board members at

956
01:00:14,550 --> 01:00:17,970
a public park to sit on a bench
outside just to meet face to face.

957
01:00:17,970 --> 01:00:20,190
Because, you know,
I really appreciate, you know,

958
01:00:20,190 --> 01:00:22,830
the conversation and looking
someone in the eye and having

959
01:00:22,830 --> 01:00:27,120
that kind of dialogue, but I interviewed 100% virtually.

960
01:00:28,050 --> 01:00:34,740, and the role described to me was, you know, the business,

961
01:00:34,740 --> 01:00:36,450
was going through a transition.
Obviously,

962
01:00:36,450 --> 01:00:39,300
they needed a leadership change.
And I think a lot of that was

963
01:00:39,300 --> 01:00:42,900
brought by just different
personalities between my

964
01:00:42,900 --> 01:00:46,260
predecessor and the way the board
wanted to see the company operate.

965
01:00:47,010 --> 01:00:53,010, and they deliberately didn't want
there to be much of a transition.

966
01:00:53,700 --> 01:00:56,760
Right. So there was no buffer.
There was no interaction between

967
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,280
leadership change.
The team here,

968
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:03,510
wasn't really aware of who's going
to be coming in to replace Tom.

969
01:01:04,470 --> 01:01:08,760, and so I knew that I was
coming into a difficult transition

970
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:13,530
with a company, and,
but the role itself, obviously,

971
01:01:13,530 --> 01:01:17,190
to sort of lead things and,
at the time,

972
01:01:17,190 --> 01:01:23,520
we all thought that the pandemic
was at its peak summer of 2020.

973
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:26,430
By the end of the year,
things would taper off,

974
01:01:26,430 --> 01:01:30,120
and then we would enter, you know,
2021, and we would start focusing

975
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:33,990
on a lot of different things that
weren't related to the pandemic.

976
01:01:33,990 --> 01:01:36,930
And obviously, we now know that
that was that was not the case.

977
01:01:36,930 --> 01:01:41,280
And we're still sitting here today, dealing with a lot of lingering

978
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:50,160
impacts to the real estate industry.
So it was kind of taking the reins

979
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:54,240
and and learning the people,
I assume. Right.

980
01:01:54,270 --> 01:01:57,690
Getting to know the people both
internally and your relationships

981
01:01:57,690 --> 01:02:00,960
outside the company, I would imagine.
Right. It was all of that.

982
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:05,160
And, you know, so when I,
when I came in, I had met a

983
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:08,070
couple of the management team,
but I didn't spend enough time with

984
01:02:08,070 --> 01:02:11,460
them to really get to know them, and again,

985
01:02:11,460 --> 01:02:16,290
this is somewhat of a risk for me, I wasn't very familiar with

986
01:02:16,290 --> 01:02:18,870
the Chevy Chase Land Company.
I had heard of it.

987
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,390,
I called a few folks that I thought

988
01:02:21,390 --> 01:02:25,650
might know more about it than I did, and they didn't know much

989
01:02:25,650 --> 01:02:29,940
about it either, and so I kind of thought,

990
01:02:29,940 --> 01:02:33,690
let's let's give it a shot.
I the board was great.

991
01:02:33,690 --> 01:02:37,380
I really appreciated everything
that I heard from the board,

992
01:02:37,380 --> 01:02:41,010
and they all felt very supportive.
I felt like we were we would

993
01:02:41,010 --> 01:02:43,740
make a good team.
And so, yeah,

994
01:02:43,740 --> 01:02:48,270
I came into a number of challenges.
And obviously the first was it

995
01:02:48,270 --> 01:02:51,810
is a pandemic, and what does that mean?

996
01:02:52,170 --> 01:02:56,550, and then the second was the
transition management. Right.

997
01:02:56,550 --> 01:02:59,970
You know, Tom's out on a Friday,
Johnson on a Monday.

998
01:03:00,180 --> 01:03:04,140
And that kind of abrupt change can
can disrupt any type of culture,

999
01:03:04,140 --> 01:03:07,440
no matter how strong it is.
And so when I started,

1000
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,890
I really made a point to I met with
everyone in the company face to

1001
01:03:10,890 --> 01:03:13,860
face when I could, because a lot
of us were here in the office.

1002
01:03:13,860 --> 01:03:17,520, a lot of our property
management teams had to be on site,

1003
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,880
and we would sit outside here
and have conversations.

1004
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:28,980
And I tried to somewhat diffuse,
unwarranted concern and fears, given

1005
01:03:28,980 --> 01:03:31,980
the fact that we were in the pandemic
and there was so much uncertainty,

1006
01:03:31,980 --> 01:03:36,000
the one thing that I knew I had to do
was create some sense of stability.

1007
01:03:36,420 --> 01:03:40,740, and so I sat with everyone.
I told them about my background,

1008
01:03:40,860 --> 01:03:45,330, where I came from,
and I talked a little bit about why I

1009
01:03:45,330 --> 01:03:50,220
was excited about the opportunity, I talked about things that I

1010
01:03:50,220 --> 01:03:53,160
thought we would work on together
immediately so that, you know,

1011
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:56,670
we're we're a team here, and I'm
here to work with you as a team.

1012
01:03:56,670 --> 01:03:59,970
And I let people know that,
you know, change is inevitable.

1013
01:03:59,970 --> 01:04:04,470
But I made sure they knew that I was
not brought in as a change agent.

1014
01:04:04,890 --> 01:04:07,410
So I wasn't coming in to just
shake everything up right away.

1015
01:04:07,410 --> 01:04:11,880
So I tried to,
to really give everyone a sense that,

1016
01:04:12,420 --> 01:04:16,230, we're all in this together.
We're in a very difficult time.

1017
01:04:16,230 --> 01:04:18,630
I want to kind of learn all the
resources of the company.

1018
01:04:18,630 --> 01:04:21,570
I want to get to know everybody
and get to know their strengths.

1019
01:04:21,870 --> 01:04:24,780
Understand what you were
thinking about before.

1020
01:04:24,780 --> 01:04:27,630
And I was formulating at the same
time the direction that I thought

1021
01:04:27,630 --> 01:04:31,110
the company needed to go in.
So that was,

1022
01:04:32,100 --> 01:04:35,040
it was a difficult first six months.
And the third objective,

1023
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:38,730
obviously was I felt like I had a
good relationship with the board,

1024
01:04:38,790 --> 01:04:42,510
but I knew with this transition that
I had to work really hard to gain

1025
01:04:42,510 --> 01:04:46,980
their trust, to be overly transparent
and overly communicate with them.

1026
01:04:47,490 --> 01:04:50,310, and so those are sort of the
three different factors that I

1027
01:04:50,310 --> 01:04:53,820
was dealing with.
So when you were interviewed and

1028
01:04:53,820 --> 01:04:57,180
when you were talking,
how deep did you go into the history

1029
01:04:57,180 --> 01:05:00,720
of Chevy Chase Land Company and
how did you what did you learn and

1030
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:04,590
then interviewing process that made
you comfortable taking the role?

1031
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:08,940, doing it at the time, you know, I was focusing a lot on

1032
01:05:08,940 --> 01:05:12,660
the portfolio and the opportunity.
The history wasn't talked about,

1033
01:05:12,930 --> 01:05:16,950, much.
And, and some of the challenges,

1034
01:05:16,950 --> 01:05:21,660
frankly, that I was faced with
weren't really discussed.

1035
01:05:21,660 --> 01:05:23,670
I wouldn't say they were not
disclosed.

1036
01:05:23,670 --> 01:05:26,640
I think some of them weren't.
They weren't aware of some of

1037
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,640
the challenges, and I think that was part.

1038
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:33,180
So you didn't learn until after you
joined the firm about a few things

1039
01:05:33,180 --> 01:05:36,450
that you. I learned a lot more.
Yeah, I learned a lot more.

1040
01:05:36,630 --> 01:05:38,910, and maybe that was somewhat
intentional.

1041
01:05:39,630 --> 01:05:42,480, but I felt like I knew
enough coming in.

1042
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:45,480
I knew enough that I could make
that decision and I could join

1043
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:48,870
the organization, the people that I was

1044
01:05:48,870 --> 01:05:52,320
interviewing with all have great
reputations in the industry.

1045
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:56,790, we have a very strong board, and the family members,

1046
01:05:56,790 --> 01:06:02,400
they're all very engaged with the
company, and, they all gave

1047
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:07,290
me the confidence that, you know,
what was needed was leadership,

1048
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,620, real estate knowledge and
expertise as well.

1049
01:06:10,620 --> 01:06:13,050
But what the company really
needed was some some leadership

1050
01:06:13,050 --> 01:06:16,110
and some direction.
Well, there are two board members

1051
01:06:16,110 --> 01:06:23,460
that I know quite well on your board, and knowing them,

1052
01:06:23,460 --> 01:06:27,150
they would be very supportive of
you coming in, I'm sure.

1053
01:06:27,870 --> 01:06:31,920, those are Art Greenberg and, Bill Naughton. Yeah.

1054
01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:35,100
And Arts,
our newest art just joined last year,

1055
01:06:35,100 --> 01:06:38,790
and he's been a great addition.
Yeah, I've known both of them

1056
01:06:38,790 --> 01:06:43,440
for almost 40 years.
Yeah, yeah, a long time.

1057
01:06:43,830 --> 01:06:47,240
Solid guys. Yeah. They are.
They are everyone on the board.

1058
01:06:47,540 --> 01:06:50,900, and again,
it did feel like a partnership.

1059
01:06:51,110 --> 01:06:54,020, I report to the board, so I
always, you know, keep that in mind.

1060
01:06:54,020 --> 01:06:57,380
But it felt like we were going
to work on this together and

1061
01:06:57,380 --> 01:06:59,660
they were going to support me
and I was going to support them.

1062
01:06:59,660 --> 01:07:05,120
And. And so here we are.
Now let's go to the history,

1063
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,960
a little bit of the land company.
But you talked about the board and

1064
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:13,970
I you know, it started out as a
family business basically building

1065
01:07:13,970 --> 01:07:19,400
out northwest Washington into the
Chevy Chase, Maryland, in the 1890s.

1066
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:23,180
And it was the family was the
Newlands family out of,

1067
01:07:23,180 --> 01:07:26,600
Nevada. He's a senator. Nevada.
He lived in California.

1068
01:07:26,990 --> 01:07:30,080
So before the interview, I did a
little bit of reading about Mr.

1069
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:35,000
Newlands himself and his background, maybe you can go into that.

1070
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:38,300
But I also like to understand how
the board structure was built,

1071
01:07:38,300 --> 01:07:41,750
if, you know, in the first place
and why it was done,

1072
01:07:41,750 --> 01:07:47,960
diversified the perspectives of
the company as opposed, you know,

1073
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:51,890
which in my view has really helped
the company over the years.

1074
01:07:51,890 --> 01:07:54,950
So I'd like to get your
perspective on that. Yeah.

1075
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:58,430, well, I'll start a little
bit with with the history.

1076
01:07:58,490 --> 01:08:03,560, it's a very rich history, and I myself have done a lot

1077
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:09,290
of reading and research and,
it's it's just amazing when you

1078
01:08:09,290 --> 01:08:12,860
think about how people were living
and how people were thinking in

1079
01:08:12,860 --> 01:08:18,290
the late 1800s and, you know,
riding horseback to write,

1080
01:08:18,290 --> 01:08:23,870
to get across the country,
you know, and some of the,

1081
01:08:23,870 --> 01:08:27,080
aspirations that people had that
they, they would see through.

1082
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:29,330
And so it's interesting just to
go back to the history,

1083
01:08:29,330 --> 01:08:34,280
but this company, you know,
it was started in 1890 and the

1084
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:37,490
story goes back to the late
1800s when Francis Newlands,

1085
01:08:37,580 --> 01:08:43,640
he was a lawyer in San Francisco, he was very involved in starting

1086
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:48,380
to get very involved in politics and
then became a senator from Nevada.

1087
01:08:48,830 --> 01:08:51,650, he returned to Washington,
D.C. he had spent some time in

1088
01:08:51,650 --> 01:08:55,520
Washington previously, and then between being a

1089
01:08:55,520 --> 01:09:00,950
lawyer and returning here,
he inherited through his marriage

1090
01:09:00,950 --> 01:09:06,500
a rather large estate, which
had significant assets out west.

1091
01:09:06,500 --> 01:09:11,150
And I think he was working,
to sort of unwind that estate.

1092
01:09:11,150 --> 01:09:13,160
And I think there were some
issues and some litigations he

1093
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:16,340
was dealing with, but when he first moved here,

1094
01:09:16,970 --> 01:09:21,920
he started to, he started to
acquire what? What was farmland?

1095
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:24,170
Where we're sitting today was
farmland. Right.

1096
01:09:24,260 --> 01:09:29,960
And he bought, close to 2000
acres of land from Calvert Street DC

1097
01:09:30,380 --> 01:09:36,410
up to what is now Chevy Chase Lake.
And and he was doing this,

1098
01:09:36,530 --> 01:09:39,080
you know, piecemeal. Right?
He was not coming in and trying

1099
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:42,200
to capture everything at once,
but he was assembling the land,

1100
01:09:42,530 --> 01:09:47,600
and then he, he started to build.
And it's important to recognize

1101
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:52,310
this was this wasn't a public,
you know, private relationship.

1102
01:09:52,310 --> 01:09:56,180
This was this was 100% funded by
by Newlands.

1103
01:09:56,600 --> 01:10:00,230, he had the land from Calvert
Street up through here,

1104
01:10:00,230 --> 01:10:04,850
and he started to grade,
a rail line, so that he could

1105
01:10:04,850 --> 01:10:10,430
put in a trolley from downtown
DC up north to Chevy Chase Lake.

1106
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:14,240, that that rail is now
Connecticut Avenue.

1107
01:10:14,630 --> 01:10:19,340
The lake, was drained in 1930,
but that was a man made lake from

1108
01:10:19,340 --> 01:10:22,940
a tributary to Rock Creek Park.
So it was also involved in Rock

1109
01:10:22,940 --> 01:10:26,840
Creek Park and,
formed the Rock Creek rail.

1110
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:32,060
And a lot of that over time became, one of the key arteries to

1111
01:10:32,060 --> 01:10:36,380
our current metro station today.
So his idea was he was going to

1112
01:10:36,590 --> 01:10:41,390
develop this land and he was going
to provide transportation to Chevy

1113
01:10:41,390 --> 01:10:45,350
Chase Lake is one of the main,
destinations for entertainment.

1114
01:10:45,350 --> 01:10:50,060
So this was where you would go to,
you know, public, musical,

1115
01:10:50,060 --> 01:10:55,160
plays and people would come there for
entertainment and dances and picnics.

1116
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:59,180, and it was considered sort
of the refuge from downtown DC.

1117
01:10:59,180 --> 01:11:04,340
So I'm trying to think in today's
world what that might feel like,

1118
01:11:04,340 --> 01:11:08,000
maybe it's going out to Middleburg or
it's going out to the Eastern Shore.

1119
01:11:08,090 --> 01:11:10,430
But for the folks in Washington,
DC at the time,

1120
01:11:10,430 --> 01:11:14,120
this was going way out into the
country to get away from the the

1121
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:17,270
heat and the swamp environment.
That was a higher elevation.

1122
01:11:17,270 --> 01:11:23,990
Higher elevation, right. Cleaner air.
Yes, and, the name.

1123
01:11:23,990 --> 01:11:26,240
So it's important to understand
the name, one of the first

1124
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:30,290
pieces of land that he bought,
I think, was about 175 acres,

1125
01:11:30,290 --> 01:11:35,270
was originally a grant from Lord
Baltimore back in the 1700s.

1126
01:11:35,480 --> 01:11:39,620
And Lord Baltimore had named
that entity the legal entity

1127
01:11:39,620 --> 01:11:42,560
that owned the land, some,

1128
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:46,360
some variation of Chevy Chase.
I think it was Chevy. Year to chase.

1129
01:11:46,810 --> 01:11:51,760
And historians claim that that name
came, and we all assume it came

1130
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:56,560
from The Ballad of Chevy Chase,
which was a ballad written,

1131
01:11:57,280 --> 01:12:03,010
I think, in the 14 or 15 hundreds
to commemorate a massive,

1132
01:12:03,010 --> 01:12:07,810
fierce battle between the Scots and
the Brits in the Cheviot Hills,

1133
01:12:07,810 --> 01:12:10,510
which is the territory between
the two countries.

1134
01:12:10,660 --> 01:12:15,400
And as the history goes,
it was about 2000 swordsmen

1135
01:12:16,030 --> 01:12:21,400
against or spearmen, I'm sorry,
2000 spearmen against 2000 archers.

1136
01:12:22,630 --> 01:12:26,800
And about 170 people survived
this battle.

1137
01:12:27,220 --> 01:12:29,950
And it's just across these hills.
Right.

1138
01:12:29,950 --> 01:12:32,110
And,
so there's this ballad of Chevy

1139
01:12:32,110 --> 01:12:36,940
Chase and this first piece of land
from Lord Baltimore with that name.

1140
01:12:36,940 --> 01:12:40,570
And so Newlands decided that he
would name the company the Chevy

1141
01:12:40,570 --> 01:12:44,140
Chase Land Company.
And, of course, was born the

1142
01:12:44,140 --> 01:12:49,630
subdivision of Chevy Chase, Maryland, so when you when you get to the

1143
01:12:49,630 --> 01:12:54,010
original development of Chevy Chase,
he decided that he would first

1144
01:12:54,010 --> 01:12:58,510
start to develop the northern part
of the territories, which is,

1145
01:12:58,510 --> 01:13:02,500
you know, where we are now.
And he put together, some of

1146
01:13:02,500 --> 01:13:07,420
the top architects, engineers, and I wouldn't use the word

1147
01:13:07,420 --> 01:13:10,060
planners because planning didn't
exist at this time.

1148
01:13:10,780 --> 01:13:14,260
And this is one of the first
master planned suburban

1149
01:13:14,260 --> 01:13:17,830
communities in the country.
There was none other than this.

1150
01:13:17,830 --> 01:13:20,860
No one thought about master
planning and a residential

1151
01:13:20,860 --> 01:13:25,090
neighborhood the way new ones did.
And so that included,

1152
01:13:25,090 --> 01:13:29,350
wide streets and well-organized
streets and flat streets,

1153
01:13:29,350 --> 01:13:33,280
and included pure water,
which he provided through 20 wells.

1154
01:13:33,700 --> 01:13:39,700, it had a sewage sanitation system
that was the best in the region,

1155
01:13:39,910 --> 01:13:43,270, which was rare in those days.
And the downtown sewage system,

1156
01:13:43,270 --> 01:13:46,360
I think was, repulsive,
according to most people.

1157
01:13:46,360 --> 01:13:49,600
So it was creating this park
like setting,

1158
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:53,140
and he was using some of the best
people to help layout and design it.

1159
01:13:53,140 --> 01:13:57,100
He even built the nursery to grow
shrubs and trees, to plant along

1160
01:13:57,100 --> 01:14:01,150
the streetscapes he provided,
built schools, built the shopping

1161
01:14:01,150 --> 01:14:06,070
center and donated land to churches,
for the for churches,

1162
01:14:06,070 --> 01:14:08,980
and then started to sell,
you know, some of the lots.

1163
01:14:08,980 --> 01:14:13,870
So when did the District of
Columbia next the land that up

1164
01:14:13,870 --> 01:14:17,200
to Chevy Chase circle, do you know when that happened?

1165
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:21,070
And, because I know that was
a state, it was Maryland all the

1166
01:14:21,070 --> 01:14:26,260
way down to what's now where Rock
Creek crosses at Taft Bridge,

1167
01:14:26,260 --> 01:14:30,010
I believe, is the state of Maryland
was owned that land at that time.

1168
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:33,340
Do you know when that happened?
I think it was in I think it was

1169
01:14:33,340 --> 01:14:36,340
in the early 1900s.
I think it might have been.

1170
01:14:36,340 --> 01:14:38,980
I think it might have been
around 1910. I'm not certain.

1171
01:14:39,370 --> 01:14:43,210, and it's not really widely
discussed in terms of the

1172
01:14:43,210 --> 01:14:47,080
history of the company or how
things sort of transpired.

1173
01:14:47,860 --> 01:14:51,790
So I shared with you that,
when I worked for the B.F. soll

1174
01:14:51,790 --> 01:14:58,450
company, which was founded in 1892.
So it was only two years younger

1175
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:02,050
than Chevy Chase Land Company.
And I'm guessing, and I don't know

1176
01:15:02,050 --> 01:15:06,820
the history of it, that be frank,
Francis Saul, the first, who was the

1177
01:15:06,820 --> 01:15:11,470
founder of that company, and Mr..
Senator Newlands were acquainted

1178
01:15:11,470 --> 01:15:15,460
and knew each other. Yeah.
At that time,

1179
01:15:15,460 --> 01:15:18,760
because there's actually a,
one of the subdivisions in northwest

1180
01:15:18,760 --> 01:15:22,210
Washington, it's a small addition to,
to Chevy Chase.

1181
01:15:22,210 --> 01:15:25,450
So clearly there was a
relationship at that time.

1182
01:15:26,260 --> 01:15:30,190, but my working there for
seven years at the Salt Company,

1183
01:15:30,190 --> 01:15:35,500
I learned about the relationship.
But I also came across a book,

1184
01:15:35,980 --> 01:15:41,110
and it's actually a one of four
volumes called The Based Biased Book,

1185
01:15:41,110 --> 01:15:42,910
which is in the Library of Congress.
Right?

1186
01:15:43,600 --> 01:15:49,030
It really is the the first plat
map of Washington, DC,

1187
01:15:49,030 --> 01:15:55,300
which came right around the turn
of the 20th century, 1905 or so.

1188
01:15:55,750 --> 01:15:58,960
But it's interesting.
It was Washington, DC.

1189
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:04,120
So at that point it apparently
was the city, because they showed

1190
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:07,990
Western Avenue at that on that map,
right, that there was a break at

1191
01:16:07,990 --> 01:16:11,410
that point. So it's interesting.
It was right around that time,

1192
01:16:11,410 --> 01:16:15,010
but we don't know exactly when it
sounds like it's interesting. Know.

1193
01:16:15,010 --> 01:16:19,510
And you know, you know,
when when Virginia when Arlington and

1194
01:16:19,510 --> 01:16:23,680
Alexandria were sort of broken off.
There's no clear I'm sure it's

1195
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:28,090
somewhere, but I just haven't
seen it, interesting.

1196
01:16:28,540 --> 01:16:33,160
So, talk about the the evolution
of the company then from there and

1197
01:16:33,160 --> 01:16:36,820
how that all took place. Yeah.
So I would say so, Francis

1198
01:16:36,820 --> 01:16:41,950
Newlands, he was president of the
company until his death in 1917.

1199
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:46,610, but I would imagine when you.
A president of the company.

1200
01:16:46,610 --> 01:16:48,950
It's not like I'm president of
the company today.

1201
01:16:48,950 --> 01:16:53,000
This is like my full time job.
He was president of the company.

1202
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:57,080
He was also a senator,
and he was also handling business in

1203
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:02,720
in Nevada and throughout California.
So, I imagine he had his team

1204
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:06,620
sort of here running the company.
And the first phase was mostly

1205
01:17:06,620 --> 01:17:12,140
selling, selling the, the lots and
Chevy Chase, for, for residential

1206
01:17:12,140 --> 01:17:15,170
development for the most part.
And then it went through the

1207
01:17:15,170 --> 01:17:18,110
next phase of the company,
through different leadership,

1208
01:17:18,110 --> 01:17:22,730
started to sell tracts of land, south to builders,

1209
01:17:22,730 --> 01:17:26,570
to builders, developers.
And that,

1210
01:17:26,570 --> 01:17:30,320
that and that was sort of, I think,
harvesting some of the investments.

1211
01:17:30,650 --> 01:17:34,370, and I don't know for sure if
that capital was reinvested into

1212
01:17:34,370 --> 01:17:37,730
the company one way or another.
But there was a decision,

1213
01:17:37,730 --> 01:17:41,390
and this came post-World War two,
that the company would,

1214
01:17:41,390 --> 01:17:44,630
would stop simply selling land,
but it would start to enter into the

1215
01:17:44,630 --> 01:17:49,040
business of developing the land and
creating assets for the company.

1216
01:17:49,490 --> 01:17:54,350
And that that's what led to
where we are today. Right.

1217
01:17:54,350 --> 01:17:58,730
So some of the developments,
some of the earlier ones, Chase

1218
01:17:58,730 --> 01:18:01,910
Manor and Preston Place Townhomes,
which are up in Chevy Chase,

1219
01:18:01,910 --> 01:18:05,180
they were built in the 60s.
And so the idea was let's, let's

1220
01:18:05,180 --> 01:18:10,400
build commercial residential assets
that can be put into the portfolio,

1221
01:18:10,430 --> 01:18:15,560
has legacy cash flowing properties, and it's interesting.

1222
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:18,830
And this was publicly stated by
leadership of the company.

1223
01:18:19,310 --> 01:18:21,680,
it was very much into the community.

1224
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:25,760
It was very much into providing
something exceptional for the

1225
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:29,960
community.
And I think it was in the 1930s.

1226
01:18:30,170 --> 01:18:35,570
It was a statement that simply said,
we we want to provide something

1227
01:18:35,570 --> 01:18:38,510
exemplary for the community that
we're in.

1228
01:18:38,510 --> 01:18:43,580
And if it means significantly less
returns financially, so be it.

1229
01:18:43,580 --> 01:18:47,330
So the culture of the company
was we want to we want to create

1230
01:18:47,330 --> 01:18:49,310
world class product,

1231
01:18:49,310 --> 01:18:53,810
we want to deliver above and beyond.
We don't want to be,

1232
01:18:53,810 --> 01:18:59,270
seen as simply a for for profit,
you know, try to get every nickel

1233
01:18:59,270 --> 01:19:03,860
and dime out of a deal company, and there and that that

1234
01:19:03,860 --> 01:19:07,670
culture somewhat exists today as
we think about legacy assets and

1235
01:19:07,670 --> 01:19:11,150
holding on to properties, and that sort of ties a little

1236
01:19:11,150 --> 01:19:15,020
bit into, you know, my thoughts
for the future. Interesting.

1237
01:19:15,590 --> 01:19:18,320
So how did the board structure
evolve?

1238
01:19:18,320 --> 01:19:20,600
Do you know how that all kind of
came about?

1239
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:25,490
I, I don't have the exact details.
As you know, the company,

1240
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:29,630
over the last 30 or 40 years, has transitioned through a

1241
01:19:29,630 --> 01:19:34,550
couple of different, leaders, you know, from Gavin Farr,

1242
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:38,660, to to David to Tom.
And I think over time,

1243
01:19:38,870 --> 01:19:45,620
the the board was,
was once more, colleagues,

1244
01:19:45,620 --> 01:19:50,000
associates, of of the company
and the family and leadership.

1245
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:53,930
And then I think it started to
transition into more of an

1246
01:19:53,930 --> 01:19:58,490
independent governing board, the structure is very I

1247
01:19:58,490 --> 01:20:01,160
would I would call it a it's a
very proper structure. Right.

1248
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:04,970
So when you think about,
how we're set up, we have our,

1249
01:20:04,970 --> 01:20:07,340
we have a chairman of the board
and we have our committee system.

1250
01:20:07,340 --> 01:20:09,680
So we have an audit committee,
governance committee.

1251
01:20:10,400 --> 01:20:13,610, we have a family council
liaison board member who works

1252
01:20:13,610 --> 01:20:17,420
with our family council.
And, we have Bill,

1253
01:20:17,450 --> 01:20:22,010
who leads our investment committee,
and we all, support one another.

1254
01:20:22,010 --> 01:20:24,920
And we all have a good relationship,
meaning the management team here

1255
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:29,480
works well with the board.
So I think it provides a lot of

1256
01:20:29,480 --> 01:20:31,490
good stability and guidance for
the company.

1257
01:20:31,490 --> 01:20:36,650
I don't know when, the decision
was made to have the board be so

1258
01:20:36,650 --> 01:20:39,710
independent because, as you know,
with most family companies,

1259
01:20:39,710 --> 01:20:45,410
when when family is involved,
it's it's more of a family reunion

1260
01:20:45,410 --> 01:20:48,650
conversation for an update on
the on the company than it is.

1261
01:20:48,770 --> 01:20:51,170
I mean, you look at some of the
large family oriented

1262
01:20:51,170 --> 01:20:54,290
enterprises and one that comes
to mind because I grew up in the

1263
01:20:54,290 --> 01:21:00,140
Detroit area is the Ford family, and the way they set it up

1264
01:21:00,590 --> 01:21:03,950
as a public company. Right.
But they had these super,

1265
01:21:04,310 --> 01:21:11,150
super stock structures so that their
their votes mean more than the rest

1266
01:21:11,150 --> 01:21:15,500
of the public is in in your case,
you're a private organization,

1267
01:21:15,500 --> 01:21:18,200
but it sounds like because of
the governance structure that

1268
01:21:18,200 --> 01:21:21,290
you've just talked about,
it sounds more or less like a

1269
01:21:21,290 --> 01:21:24,710
public company type of structure.
From a board standpoint.

1270
01:21:24,860 --> 01:21:27,890
I may be wrong, but that seems
the way you where you're no.

1271
01:21:27,950 --> 01:21:32,270
I think that's the independence
that that we are striving for.

1272
01:21:32,270 --> 01:21:35,690
And obviously the the family is
very important and we have that

1273
01:21:35,690 --> 01:21:37,970
relationship and we have that
dialogue.

1274
01:21:38,060 --> 01:21:43,790, but the family looks to the
board to oversee the business.

1275
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:49,920
What's interesting about the Maryland
portion of Chevy Chase is that

1276
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:54,960
it's divided up into at least six,
maybe seven municipalities.

1277
01:21:55,530 --> 01:21:59,160
It's interesting how that all
happened and why it didn't stay under

1278
01:21:59,160 --> 01:22:04,620
one thing, and how it all divided
up now. Maybe that was by design.

1279
01:22:04,620 --> 01:22:06,450
I don't know,
I'm just kind of curious if you

1280
01:22:06,450 --> 01:22:09,360
know anything about how that all.
I don't know what the thinking

1281
01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:13,530
it was by design, and I don't
know what the impetus was,

1282
01:22:13,530 --> 01:22:21,540
to sort of move in that direction, but, as I sort of alluded to,

1283
01:22:22,350 --> 01:22:27,060
every, intricate detail of, of
the beginning of the community was,

1284
01:22:27,060 --> 01:22:31,530
was thought out and deliberate for
a reason and for a purpose.

1285
01:22:31,830 --> 01:22:37,890, and, yeah, I'm sure,
I'm sure there was some method behind

1286
01:22:38,130 --> 01:22:46,050
that decision as well. Yeah.
Chevy Chase Historic Society has

1287
01:22:46,050 --> 01:22:49,830
considerable information about the
formation development of the area.

1288
01:22:49,860 --> 01:22:53,310
Unfortunately, there were deed
restrictions imposed on most of

1289
01:22:53,310 --> 01:22:57,810
the property when developed that
became unconstitutional with the

1290
01:22:57,810 --> 01:23:02,460
Civil Rights Act in the mid 1960s.
We've come a long way.

1291
01:23:02,460 --> 01:23:05,370
And now the demographics of the
area of diversified.

1292
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:07,920
Talk about the evolution of the
company's views and your current

1293
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:11,040
field philosophy of the company, yeah, sure.

1294
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:15,750
And, you know, this is what I
guess I would call sort of a dark

1295
01:23:15,750 --> 01:23:24,090
cloud over the, Newlands legacy, you know, for for listeners

1296
01:23:24,090 --> 01:23:27,540
that don't know the details, there were there were deed

1297
01:23:27,540 --> 01:23:29,880
restrictions.
Now, the deed restrictions were not

1298
01:23:29,880 --> 01:23:35,730
put into place until after his death.
But what Newlands did is when he

1299
01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:39,840
when he put the community together,
he had zoning restrictions.

1300
01:23:39,840 --> 01:23:42,690
And those zoning restrictions
prohibited, apartments.

1301
01:23:42,690 --> 01:23:47,100
They prohibited townhomes,
they prohibited alleyways.

1302
01:23:47,400 --> 01:23:50,370, and they also had minimum
values associated with the lot.

1303
01:23:50,370 --> 01:23:54,540
So the lots on Connecticut Avenue, had to have a home value of

1304
01:23:54,540 --> 01:24:00,330
at least $5,000 in the lots on
the side streets were $3,000.

1305
01:24:00,330 --> 01:24:02,250
It was his home value or the lot
value.

1306
01:24:02,250 --> 01:24:06,120
But regardless, it was very clear
that that that number, that

1307
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:11,880
valuation, was only attainable
to a very select group of people.

1308
01:24:12,420 --> 01:24:15,840, and so, you know,
this is something that when I,

1309
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:19,770
when I joined the company in 2020, not just the pandemic,

1310
01:24:19,770 --> 01:24:23,340
but there was a lot of civil
unrest and this was a topic that

1311
01:24:23,340 --> 01:24:26,910
was front and center, and, you know, it was it was a

1312
01:24:26,910 --> 01:24:31,020
good opportunity, I think, for,
for us as a company to bring this

1313
01:24:31,020 --> 01:24:33,300
history to light and to talk about.
I think it was a great opportunity

1314
01:24:33,300 --> 01:24:36,600
for us as a, as a country,
because this was this topic was

1315
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:41,760
surfacing in every community with, with, with history and,

1316
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:44,820
and things that we thought we knew,
but we really didn't know.

1317
01:24:45,360 --> 01:24:48,900, and so we use it as an
opportunity here in the company to,

1318
01:24:48,900 --> 01:24:52,230, to, to surface it,
to talk about it and to address it.

1319
01:24:52,230 --> 01:24:56,460
We all agreed that, you know,
for us to think about moving forward,

1320
01:24:56,460 --> 01:25:00,000
this is the part of history that
we must acknowledge and accept.

1321
01:25:00,540 --> 01:25:03,480,
and we made a decision to make one.

1322
01:25:03,480 --> 01:25:07,440
We made it very clear to the
community that the views of the past,

1323
01:25:07,440 --> 01:25:10,890
in no way, shape or form, reflect any
of the views that we have today.

1324
01:25:10,890 --> 01:25:16,470
We we very much embraced diversity
and inclusion and many of the things

1325
01:25:16,470 --> 01:25:20,370
that we do outside of the company, work that we do in the community,

1326
01:25:20,610 --> 01:25:23,880
you know, we're striving to
support equality for all.

1327
01:25:24,360 --> 01:25:29,700, so two Bethesda metro,
was was the Newlands building.

1328
01:25:29,700 --> 01:25:32,400
So we remove the Newlands name
from the building.

1329
01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:36,180
We've rebranded that property.
We're actually 45 days away from

1330
01:25:36,180 --> 01:25:39,570
completing a major renovation,
which I'm extremely excited about.

1331
01:25:40,110 --> 01:25:44,940, and then there's Chevy Chase
circle, where that was named after

1332
01:25:44,940 --> 01:25:50,520
Newlands, with his with a plaque.
And that plaque was a,

1333
01:25:50,970 --> 01:25:54,510
National Landmark.
And so we worked closely with the

1334
01:25:54,510 --> 01:25:57,720
Chevy Chase Historical Society there.
They're a great friend of ours

1335
01:25:57,720 --> 01:26:00,510
and an ally.
We worked closely with,

1336
01:26:00,510 --> 01:26:05,160
the Chevy Chase Circle Foundation,
and we fully supported the initiative

1337
01:26:05,160 --> 01:26:10,110
to remove the name from the circle, that, in fact, required an act of

1338
01:26:10,110 --> 01:26:15,270
Congress because it was a landmark.
And so, we were, you know,

1339
01:26:15,270 --> 01:26:17,760
kind of along the way and making
sure that happen.

1340
01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:22,680
And in fact, last year, the the
plaque was removed from the circle.

1341
01:26:22,680 --> 01:26:26,160
And there was there was a nice,
celebration to commemorate that.

1342
01:26:26,160 --> 01:26:29,130
So the whole community was together.
We were there.

1343
01:26:29,190 --> 01:26:32,790, Mayor Bowser came up and
gave a nice talk to the church.

1344
01:26:32,790 --> 01:26:35,580
And, you know,
she was sort of emphasizing what

1345
01:26:35,580 --> 01:26:38,760
we were all talking about,
that we're recognizing this and

1346
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:42,060
we're taking this opportunity to,
you know, to move forward.

1347
01:26:42,630 --> 01:26:47,920, and I would say today.
The company and the entire company,

1348
01:26:48,610 --> 01:26:51,700, all of our board members, every
one of them and our shareholders.

1349
01:26:51,700 --> 01:26:56,050
You know, we all believe that, his views on race completely

1350
01:26:56,050 --> 01:26:58,870
contradict the ideals of the
company today.

1351
01:26:59,530 --> 01:27:04,240, and as we think about who we are,
it's our intention, you know,

1352
01:27:04,240 --> 01:27:09,310
for us to be an active force for
change and progress in the community.

1353
01:27:09,310 --> 01:27:12,670
And when we think about what we do
and the product that we deliver,

1354
01:27:13,210 --> 01:27:16,000, it's part of our mission and
it's part of our core values,

1355
01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:19,810
and that is we want to build,
you know, welcoming communities

1356
01:27:19,810 --> 01:27:24,190
where everyone is welcome, and we have a value that,

1357
01:27:24,190 --> 01:27:27,940
you know, together we thrive.
And that's really important to us.

1358
01:27:28,510 --> 01:27:32,530, so, you know, this is sort
of very representative of,

1359
01:27:32,530 --> 01:27:34,960
I think, the culture that we've
been working to build.

1360
01:27:35,470 --> 01:27:38,740, and I think it's given us an
opportunity to think about as we

1361
01:27:38,740 --> 01:27:42,040
move forward, you know,
what are the ideals that we embrace

1362
01:27:42,040 --> 01:27:46,450
and how do we make sure,
that everything that we do exhibits,

1363
01:27:46,570 --> 01:27:50,410, and projects those views.
So that's great.

1364
01:27:50,500 --> 01:27:53,470
Sounds like you've pivoted quite
nicely there.

1365
01:27:54,490 --> 01:28:01,570, in my early tenure in the 1980s,
Chevy Chase Land Company owned 8401

1366
01:28:01,570 --> 01:28:06,160
Connecticut Avenue two Wisconsin
Circle, an office building that

1367
01:28:06,160 --> 01:28:10,060
recently had been built at that time,
and a joint venture with

1368
01:28:10,060 --> 01:28:13,480
Northwestern Mutual.
And Bill Norton was leading the

1369
01:28:13,480 --> 01:28:15,850
office then at that time.
So I'm sure that's how the

1370
01:28:15,850 --> 01:28:20,260
relationship developed between
him and the company and

1371
01:28:20,260 --> 01:28:23,020
scattered other investments,
including land on Wisconsin Avenue,

1372
01:28:23,020 --> 01:28:26,290
which became the Chevy Chase
collection, were sitting in and

1373
01:28:26,290 --> 01:28:29,920
part of the Bethesda metro area,
which became two Bethesda metro.

1374
01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:34,120
Doug Furstenberg of Stonebridge V
developed both of those projects

1375
01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:37,900
in the 1990s and, as I recall,
talk about the current portfolio

1376
01:28:37,900 --> 01:28:42,070
and its growth, if you would. Yeah.
So it's,

1377
01:28:42,700 --> 01:28:45,400
interesting that you mentioned
all of those projects because we

1378
01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:49,390
still own all of those projects, and that's something that

1379
01:28:49,390 --> 01:28:53,830
we're talking about a lot in
terms of legacy assets, right?

1380
01:28:53,830 --> 01:28:57,220
There are legacy assets that can
contribute a lot of value to a

1381
01:28:57,220 --> 01:29:00,520
portfolio,
and they're legacy assets that,

1382
01:29:00,820 --> 01:29:05,050
can drain your portfolio right off as
being one very capital intensive.

1383
01:29:05,470 --> 01:29:08,740, so as we think about our
current portfolio,

1384
01:29:08,740 --> 01:29:11,560
we're thinking about our shift,
we're thinking about diversification,

1385
01:29:11,560 --> 01:29:18,010
and we're thinking about growth, those assets, are key assets

1386
01:29:18,010 --> 01:29:22,300
that were very actively, you know,
sort of generating value through.

1387
01:29:22,300 --> 01:29:27,370
And we're thinking about what is,
in store for the next 3 to 5 years.

1388
01:29:27,820 --> 01:29:31,660, other assets include here the
collection where we sit today.

1389
01:29:32,470 --> 01:29:38,440, when I started, somewhat
unfortunate that it was the pandemic,

1390
01:29:38,440 --> 01:29:42,910
but, more than that, the Amazon
was under construction and not open.

1391
01:29:42,910 --> 01:29:45,070
We had two restaurants that had
signed leases.

1392
01:29:45,070 --> 01:29:48,520
They weren't under construction.
We had a lot of vacancy here

1393
01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:51,010
because this project was going
through a transformation.

1394
01:29:51,010 --> 01:29:54,940
And, it just got hit
headfirst with, you know,

1395
01:29:54,940 --> 01:29:59,200
the world shutting down in 2020, we've really worked hard to

1396
01:29:59,200 --> 01:30:01,990
bring this back to life.
And now we have five restaurants.

1397
01:30:01,990 --> 01:30:04,540
We have a lot of exciting,
engaging activity.

1398
01:30:04,630 --> 01:30:09,310
So this has been a great asset for
us to continue, promoting.

1399
01:30:09,310 --> 01:30:15,340
And then to Bethesda metro, which, you know, is one of our key

1400
01:30:15,340 --> 01:30:19,390
assets in downtown Bethesda,
sitting on the metro station that

1401
01:30:19,390 --> 01:30:22,810
that's a project that as soon as
I started, I felt like it needed,

1402
01:30:22,870 --> 01:30:27,880, it needed a complete new life.
And, in my first six months,

1403
01:30:27,880 --> 01:30:31,000
I started working with an architect
to think about a new plan.

1404
01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:35,200
And we spent quite a bit of time, revising that plan.

1405
01:30:35,200 --> 01:30:37,600
And we made a decision a year
and a half ago.

1406
01:30:37,990 --> 01:30:40,330, I would call it a rather
contrarian position.

1407
01:30:40,330 --> 01:30:43,660
If you think about where office
was then and where it is today.

1408
01:30:44,050 --> 01:30:49,030, but we embarked on a $22 million
renovation of two Bethesda metro,

1409
01:30:49,030 --> 01:30:53,650
full renovation of the building,
the lobby, going vertical.

1410
01:30:53,650 --> 01:30:58,000
And then there is what I call the
annex building, which goes up

1411
01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:01,930
three levels from the ground floor
to the mezz to the upper plaza.

1412
01:31:02,320 --> 01:31:06,880
And that looked like something
that was very underutilized.

1413
01:31:07,060 --> 01:31:11,200, and it was and there's a lot of
failed retail concepts that tried

1414
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:14,290
to be there. So we've taken that.
We've popped it up, we've brought

1415
01:31:14,290 --> 01:31:17,020
it over, we've expanded it.
That's going to be the new amenity

1416
01:31:17,020 --> 01:31:21,550
pavilion for two Bethesda metro.
So in in two months I think we're

1417
01:31:21,550 --> 01:31:26,440
going to have one, one of the
best, products in the market.

1418
01:31:26,440 --> 01:31:30,580
That's not a brand new trophy asset, I think it's going to be a

1419
01:31:30,580 --> 01:31:33,250
really special renovation.
And I think it's something that

1420
01:31:33,250 --> 01:31:36,580
you have to do in this market if
you're going to survive what we're

1421
01:31:36,580 --> 01:31:40,000
seeing in the office segment.
How's your. Leasing going. There?

1422
01:31:40,180 --> 01:31:43,720, we're getting a lot of tours.
We've had some activity I think

1423
01:31:43,720 --> 01:31:46,360
we've leased.
In the last six months,

1424
01:31:46,360 --> 01:31:49,870
about 30,000ft,
not including a lot of renewals.

1425
01:31:49,870 --> 01:31:53,800
A lot of tenants who were,
were subprime tenants.

1426
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:58,330
You know, we've taken prime,
and, sublease tenant. Sorry.

1427
01:31:58,330 --> 01:32:00,460
I'm thinking,
thinking back to the.

1428
01:32:00,610 --> 01:32:03,280
I think costar was the first big
tenant you had there,

1429
01:32:03,280 --> 01:32:06,850
as I recall. Yeah.
And was and we had,

1430
01:32:06,850 --> 01:32:10,720
Aries Capital, and that deal was done,

1431
01:32:10,720 --> 01:32:15,070
you know, 13 years ago. Right.
And so when you, when you think about

1432
01:32:15,070 --> 01:32:17,860
legacy assets and you think about
when do you harvest an investment,

1433
01:32:17,860 --> 01:32:20,530
it's one of the things we're
working to change here is to think

1434
01:32:20,530 --> 01:32:24,280
more of a portfolio management.
That was a that was a great

1435
01:32:24,280 --> 01:32:27,490
lease at a very high number.
It set the market at the time,

1436
01:32:28,210 --> 01:32:32,050
and that's an asset that you would
think maybe let's harvest that.

1437
01:32:32,050 --> 01:32:36,040
Let's think about our capital and
let's redeploy into other properties.

1438
01:32:36,040 --> 01:32:38,740
And so we're starting to take
that mentality right.

1439
01:32:38,740 --> 01:32:42,610
In terms of we don't need to have two
Bethesda in our portfolio because

1440
01:32:42,610 --> 01:32:46,750
it's been in our, in our,
you know, business for decades.

1441
01:32:47,320 --> 01:32:50,710, so that's going to be a big
part of our shift in a direction

1442
01:32:50,710 --> 01:32:55,270
that we're had.
Interesting, other assets. Yeah.

1443
01:32:55,270 --> 01:32:58,000
So we've we've branched out into
Virginia.

1444
01:32:58,270 --> 01:33:01,480, we've got a couple of properties
in Virginia, one in Boston.

1445
01:33:01,480 --> 01:33:05,020
We have a shopping center in
Reston that performs very well.

1446
01:33:05,680 --> 01:33:09,130,
we had a development site in Reston.

1447
01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:13,960, when I started, it was it was an
office building, one of the old,

1448
01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:18,640
you know, three storey,
70,000 square foot office buildings

1449
01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:23,020
that really was obsolete in its use.
And we were moving in the

1450
01:33:23,020 --> 01:33:26,410
direction of redevelopment.
But we also felt like we had too

1451
01:33:26,410 --> 01:33:30,640
much development exposure.
When I started, this company was

1452
01:33:30,640 --> 01:33:33,550
a very opportunistic,
high risk portfolio, and it really

1453
01:33:33,550 --> 01:33:37,660
needs to be a core portfolio.
So we've we've been very

1454
01:33:37,660 --> 01:33:43,690
strategically stabilizing certain
assets and, and working to

1455
01:33:43,690 --> 01:33:47,230
move out of what might have been a
high risk development and putting

1456
01:33:47,230 --> 01:33:50,590
more capital into more core,
stable, cash flowing properties.

1457
01:33:50,590 --> 01:33:53,860
So you're starting to acquire assets
as opposed to developing them.

1458
01:33:53,860 --> 01:33:58,510
Then at this point, yes. Yeah.
We want to be we're not finding much

1459
01:33:58,510 --> 01:34:01,120
in the market today to to acquire.
Yeah.

1460
01:34:01,120 --> 01:34:05,650
And and of course our, our money
market at 5% is competing with,

1461
01:34:05,650 --> 01:34:09,700
with the real estate market. Exactly.
Well I mean there's repositioning

1462
01:34:09,700 --> 01:34:14,410
opportunities but that involves
usually development risk involved.

1463
01:34:14,410 --> 01:34:18,940
So a little more of that.
So for instance, taking one of your

1464
01:34:18,940 --> 01:34:21,760
office buildings and converting
it into a residential structure

1465
01:34:21,760 --> 01:34:25,480
might be an interesting play.
But and we've studied that,

1466
01:34:25,960 --> 01:34:29,590
we've studied it with two Wisconsin
and I've studied that market a bit.

1467
01:34:29,920 --> 01:34:32,740
And it's a very challenging market,
very challenging.

1468
01:34:32,740 --> 01:34:36,970
It's,
it's a unique deal that works. Right.

1469
01:34:36,970 --> 01:34:42,310
And, and I think it's even
getting more challenging, as I've,

1470
01:34:42,310 --> 01:34:47,080
I've heard from others, that your
basis needs to be close to zero to

1471
01:34:47,080 --> 01:34:50,830
make it, you know, underwrite so.
Well, either that or you're

1472
01:34:50,830 --> 01:34:53,230
going to go really high end.
You're not going to do

1473
01:34:53,230 --> 01:34:56,140
affordable with that,
but you can like go really high end.

1474
01:34:56,140 --> 01:34:59,500
And I interviewed a fellow recently,
Matt Petrenko,

1475
01:34:59,500 --> 01:35:03,490
who came here from Philadelphia and
acquired two large assets downtown.

1476
01:35:03,490 --> 01:35:09,130
And they're doing really high end
luxury type apartments and then

1477
01:35:09,250 --> 01:35:12,040
with older office buildings.
So it'll be an interesting thing

1478
01:35:12,040 --> 01:35:19,180
to see how that all transpires, so you're looking to acquire but

1479
01:35:19,180 --> 01:35:24,100
you're struggling to find deals, any other repositioning

1480
01:35:24,100 --> 01:35:27,760
going on in your portfolio now,
or are you pretty much just kind of

1481
01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:33,010
steady as she goes at this point?
We are, we're wrapping up the

1482
01:35:33,010 --> 01:35:37,150
repositioning, and I'm happy to,
to say so because, again,

1483
01:35:37,180 --> 01:35:41,680
we're really focused on getting to
that stabilize recurring revenue.

1484
01:35:42,280 --> 01:35:45,910,
we do have two assets in Chevy Chase.

1485
01:35:45,910 --> 01:35:48,310, that will be selling there
under contract.

1486
01:35:48,310 --> 01:35:50,950
We'll be selling one in the next
90 days.

1487
01:35:51,610 --> 01:35:56,110, and then phase two will sell,
somewhere in the next year or two.

1488
01:35:56,770 --> 01:35:59,560,
that's going to be fresh dry powder.

1489
01:35:59,560 --> 01:36:02,800
So that's going to be the next
play for the company.

1490
01:36:02,980 --> 01:36:05,770, we're not thinking about
repositioning any other assets

1491
01:36:05,770 --> 01:36:08,380
at this time.
We're we're studying to Wisconsin for

1492
01:36:08,380 --> 01:36:14,140
a couple of different, options.
We're thinking about this site here,

1493
01:36:14,260 --> 01:36:19,000, and, and the Saks property.
I think we're going to look at the

1494
01:36:19,000 --> 01:36:21,550
sector plan with the county soon.
Do you own.

1495
01:36:21,550 --> 01:36:25,030
The Saks property or Saks on that
property? We we own the ground.

1496
01:36:25,030 --> 01:36:28,030
Okay. We're on the ground, and, I mean,

1497
01:36:28,030 --> 01:36:31,300
that's an amazing site.
And so we've got our eyes on,

1498
01:36:31,300 --> 01:36:34,180, you know,
what that opportunity might mean?

1499
01:36:34,540 --> 01:36:39,100
But we all know when we talk about
doing a sector plan, that's not

1500
01:36:39,100 --> 01:36:42,850
going to be in the next 2 to 3 years,
right? So that's a long term play.

1501
01:36:42,850 --> 01:36:45,130
And I think,
we're going to embark on. On that.

1502
01:36:45,430 --> 01:36:50,230
But really, in the near term,
I'm thinking about as we get the

1503
01:36:50,260 --> 01:36:52,990
as we get proceeds from sales,
we're we're doing a lot of

1504
01:36:52,990 --> 01:36:59,050
structuring behind the scenes to,
get off the 1031 highway. Right.

1505
01:36:59,050 --> 01:37:01,210
Because traditionally the
company would sell a building

1506
01:37:01,210 --> 01:37:04,900
and buy a building and do a 1031
to avoid the capital gains.

1507
01:37:05,170 --> 01:37:09,220
So we've got some structuring
and we've got, some,

1508
01:37:09,220 --> 01:37:12,940
some losses and some things that
we've generated through, you know,

1509
01:37:12,940 --> 01:37:17,440, hyper amortization with our
development projects and doing cost

1510
01:37:17,440 --> 01:37:22,480
segregation so that we can minimize
our capital gains and we can take

1511
01:37:22,480 --> 01:37:26,740
capital and put it to the side and
have it parked for future investment.

1512
01:37:27,010 --> 01:37:30,970
And I think that's a big
opportunity for us as a company,

1513
01:37:30,970 --> 01:37:35,710
because what I'd like to see us do,
instead of taking the proceeds

1514
01:37:35,710 --> 01:37:38,470
and then buying and invest,
let's just say it's 25 million,

1515
01:37:38,470 --> 01:37:42,760
rather than buying one asset for
25 million in equity.

1516
01:37:43,120 --> 01:37:47,500
We'd like to think about 25
million as available capital for

1517
01:37:47,500 --> 01:37:50,620
maybe five different investments.
And so we're building our asset

1518
01:37:50,620 --> 01:37:54,790
management team. Interesting.
We're bringing in, a,

1519
01:37:54,790 --> 01:37:58,420
you know, a portfolio savvy way
of thinking about things.

1520
01:37:58,480 --> 01:38:02,350
We're bringing in a team,
that can find opportunity and

1521
01:38:02,350 --> 01:38:04,990
that can generate value in the
real estate world.

1522
01:38:05,440 --> 01:38:09,790
And so that's a big shift from
what was the land company, right?

1523
01:38:09,790 --> 01:38:13,330
The Chevy Chase Land Company.
The value was we had land.

1524
01:38:13,990 --> 01:38:17,170, now we're a little bit short
on our supply of land.

1525
01:38:17,170 --> 01:38:20,860
So we need to be thinking about
what's our expertise and what

1526
01:38:20,860 --> 01:38:24,190
value do we bring to the market.
And that value is going to be

1527
01:38:24,190 --> 01:38:27,160
the team here.
And that value is going to be us

1528
01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:31,240
uncovering opportunities.
And so we may identify a few

1529
01:38:31,240 --> 01:38:35,830
investments and say we'll we'll seed
invested with some of our capital,

1530
01:38:35,830 --> 01:38:39,160
but we'll leverage the capital
markets and we'll go out and

1531
01:38:39,160 --> 01:38:42,400
we'll talk to some of the other
institutional investors or other

1532
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:47,560
family offices, frankly, that may be
more aligned with us, principally

1533
01:38:47,560 --> 01:38:52,840
long term and more longer term.
And so rather than sell one and buy

1534
01:38:52,840 --> 01:38:57,760
one, we may sell one and buy five.
And now we've diversified our

1535
01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:01,150
property types.
We might diversify geography.

1536
01:39:01,510 --> 01:39:04,720, so we spread our capital out, we
mitigate our risk a little bit more.

1537
01:39:05,080 --> 01:39:08,050
And I and I think that's going
to be a big shift for us.

1538
01:39:08,050 --> 01:39:11,680
And we're starting to talk about it.
We're working on that

1539
01:39:11,680 --> 01:39:15,190
conversation internally.
And I think, we'll start to bring

1540
01:39:15,190 --> 01:39:17,740
that to the market later this year,
and we'll start to have more

1541
01:39:17,740 --> 01:39:22,060
conversations about what that means.
I'd like to talk about two Chevy

1542
01:39:22,060 --> 01:39:27,730
Chase assets, more specifically, one
of which is the building that I first

1543
01:39:27,730 --> 01:39:34,060
worked in 8401 Connecticut Avenue, so I have two doctors that

1544
01:39:34,060 --> 01:39:36,790
are in that building.
And in fact, I had my physical this

1545
01:39:36,790 --> 01:39:43,150
afternoon in one in that building, my annual physical after this,

1546
01:39:43,150 --> 01:39:47,020
after this interview.
And, I remember that

1547
01:39:47,020 --> 01:39:50,170
building being completely
different than it is today.

1548
01:39:50,170 --> 01:39:54,250
It's just, you know, you guys have
really transformed that property,

1549
01:39:54,580 --> 01:39:58,870
not only physically in the,
in the common area, but the

1550
01:39:58,870 --> 01:40:04,450
tenant mix is almost now, well,
I don't know, maybe 75% medical.

1551
01:40:04,930 --> 01:40:09,370
And, there's two issues with that.
One is parking.

1552
01:40:09,490 --> 01:40:13,750
So there's a challenge there. Yeah.
Now and then you have construction

1553
01:40:13,750 --> 01:40:17,230
with the metro right there with
the Purple line going on there.

1554
01:40:17,230 --> 01:40:22,510
So it's an interesting situation.
Then of course, adjacent to it used

1555
01:40:22,510 --> 01:40:27,520
to be a shopping center called Chevy
Chase Shopping Center that the

1556
01:40:27,520 --> 01:40:32,140
company owned with had, you know,
a big anchor grocery store and then

1557
01:40:32,140 --> 01:40:36,130
had strip along Connecticut Avenue
and then a wrap in like a U shape.

1558
01:40:36,370 --> 01:40:41,530
Now it's a huge mixed use development
and joint venture with Bazardo.

1559
01:40:41,530 --> 01:40:45,670
Right, and you've just apparently

1560
01:40:45,670 --> 01:40:48,640
gotten approval for phase two,
which is the old retail on the

1561
01:40:48,640 --> 01:40:51,640
other side of Connecticut Avenue
for a phase two project.

1562
01:40:51,820 --> 01:40:55,870
I assume you're pretty proud with
the phase one at this point.

1563
01:40:56,410 --> 01:41:01,390
Yeah, absolutely, and I and I think when you look

1564
01:41:01,390 --> 01:41:04,930
at phase one and you mentioned
the Chevy Chase shopping center,

1565
01:41:05,020 --> 01:41:08,830
I when I finished at ASB capital,
we were up in Bethesda.

1566
01:41:08,830 --> 01:41:11,530
So I got to know this, this
neighborhood quite a bit as well.

1567
01:41:11,530 --> 01:41:15,940
And, and there was a lumber yard.
Right. And T.W.. Perry.

1568
01:41:16,090 --> 01:41:18,940
You know, and this is an example,
this is an example of when you

1569
01:41:18,940 --> 01:41:22,450
bring together some of the
greatest minds in real estate and,

1570
01:41:22,450 --> 01:41:26,740
and developers and architects.
And you stand there and you're

1571
01:41:26,740 --> 01:41:30,370
at a lumber yard and you're
thinking about what could be.

1572
01:41:30,490 --> 01:41:34,600
And that was a very bold vision, and it's what was needed.

1573
01:41:34,600 --> 01:41:39,490
And so it's obviously for us,
it's a flagship development.

1574
01:41:39,940 --> 01:41:42,760, we've been completely
thrilled with our relationship

1575
01:41:42,760 --> 01:41:45,630
with Barstow and could be.
Be more proud with how the

1576
01:41:45,630 --> 01:41:49,110
projects turned out, we're still leasing up,

1577
01:41:49,110 --> 01:41:51,630
you know, our our second
apartment building in the cloud.

1578
01:41:51,660 --> 01:41:56,340
We are stabilized at the Barrett.
The Barrett, by the way,

1579
01:41:56,460 --> 01:41:59,700
was named after the landscape
architect Nathan Barrett, who was

1580
01:41:59,700 --> 01:42:03,450
part of the original, design
of the neighborhood Chevy Chase.

1581
01:42:03,750 --> 01:42:08,850
And. Yeah, we're so thrilled.
Which is why we're across the street

1582
01:42:08,850 --> 01:42:14,940
right now with Mizuho again, working
on getting our approvals in place

1583
01:42:14,940 --> 01:42:19,620
for the next phase of development, I'd like to say we would we would

1584
01:42:19,620 --> 01:42:22,650
start right away, but we've got some
more work to do with the county,

1585
01:42:22,650 --> 01:42:25,920
probably another year.
And then we have another year of,

1586
01:42:25,920 --> 01:42:29,730
you know, design development.
But that site was always

1587
01:42:29,730 --> 01:42:35,250
intended to be the next chapter
for Chevy Chase Lake. Yeah.

1588
01:42:35,250 --> 01:42:43,080
And, and 8401, that's an asset
that, you know, it needed to be.

1589
01:42:43,110 --> 01:42:47,220
It needed some sort of shift in
its use. It's a great location.

1590
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:51,780 and you mentioned parking as
we started to convert to medical.

1591
01:42:51,780 --> 01:42:56,490
It was our number one concern.
Our solution was the purple line

1592
01:42:56,490 --> 01:42:58,830
because I think the purple line
is going to be a great amenity,

1593
01:42:58,830 --> 01:43:02,520
a great asset.
It's just taking a lot longer

1594
01:43:02,520 --> 01:43:05,310
than we anticipated.
And it will likely be several

1595
01:43:05,310 --> 01:43:08,250
more years before it's done.
But there are solutions that

1596
01:43:08,250 --> 01:43:11,190
we've thought about for parking,
and there's some ideas that we have,

1597
01:43:11,190 --> 01:43:13,350
and I,
I hope you have a good experience

1598
01:43:13,350 --> 01:43:18,780
today when you go see your doctor, I hope your your blood pressure

1599
01:43:18,780 --> 01:43:22,320
is under control when you get there.
But, we have a couple of

1600
01:43:22,320 --> 01:43:25,620
ideas of what we might do there,
including leveraging some of the

1601
01:43:25,620 --> 01:43:29,670
excess parking that we have and
and some valet uses. So.

1602
01:43:29,850 --> 01:43:33,990, but but yeah, we've been intently
working on shifting that building

1603
01:43:33,990 --> 01:43:39,840
to a more medical use. Yeah.
And that's I think that's a

1604
01:43:39,840 --> 01:43:43,050
winner for it.
I noticed that the Capital

1605
01:43:43,050 --> 01:43:45,690
One bank branch is going to
close very shortly too.

1606
01:43:45,720 --> 01:43:50,460
I'm curious if you have a substitute
use for that for that space.

1607
01:43:50,850 --> 01:43:57,360
We, we we don't at this time,
we're exploring some ideas and,

1608
01:43:57,510 --> 01:44:02,610
we've got some activity where,
you know, we're challenged, I think,

1609
01:44:02,610 --> 01:44:06,240
like, everybody is in the market when
they explore uses and of course,

1610
01:44:06,780 --> 01:44:10,740
some of the retail concepts that we
might be thinking about are probably

1611
01:44:10,740 --> 01:44:14,580
attracted to Chevy Chase Lake,
as that sort of gets completed

1612
01:44:14,580 --> 01:44:17,880
and becomes sort of the, the,
the town piece center. Yeah.

1613
01:44:17,880 --> 01:44:21,630
I just, went to one of your
tenants this week,

1614
01:44:21,870 --> 01:44:25,800
Stretch Lab and started started
my workout routine there.

1615
01:44:25,800 --> 01:44:28,440
So that was. That's great.
It's a good little tenant.

1616
01:44:29,010 --> 01:44:37,060
I enjoyed that. So.
So since joining the company in 2020,

1617
01:44:37,090 --> 01:44:39,340
we talked a little bit about this.
How has the company evolved?

1618
01:44:39,340 --> 01:44:41,740
Culture, love.
You've kept the existing culture.

1619
01:44:41,860 --> 01:44:44,410
Talk about your team and
management style John.

1620
01:44:44,560 --> 01:44:47,740
Yeah, so touched on it a little
bit earlier.

1621
01:44:47,890 --> 01:44:49,690
As I came in,
it was a big transition.

1622
01:44:49,690 --> 01:44:55,510
And and I really tried to get
everybody on board with who I

1623
01:44:55,510 --> 01:45:02,320
was and what my, my vision is, and, and at the same time,

1624
01:45:02,320 --> 01:45:06,610
I was crafting that vision and what
the future of the company would be.

1625
01:45:06,610 --> 01:45:10,450
And obviously, a little bit of
change was needed in the company.

1626
01:45:11,110 --> 01:45:17,860, but I feel like I was getting
more and more buy in because I'm,

1627
01:45:19,450 --> 01:45:22,000
I'm analytical and I like things
to be structured.

1628
01:45:22,030 --> 01:45:25,240
I introduced a,
what's called iOS.

1629
01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:27,640
It's called the entrepreneurial
operating system.

1630
01:45:27,640 --> 01:45:32,110
But don't worry about the vernacular.
It's really when it gets boiled

1631
01:45:32,110 --> 01:45:34,480
down to it's a structure for how
you run your business.

1632
01:45:34,480 --> 01:45:37,780
It's a structure for how you
plan your annual goals and how

1633
01:45:37,780 --> 01:45:41,770
you run meetings.
And so I introduced that, and I and

1634
01:45:41,770 --> 01:45:44,680
I quickly found that many people
here were looking for structure.

1635
01:45:44,680 --> 01:45:47,500
They were looking for an idea of
what they were doing.

1636
01:45:47,920 --> 01:45:52,030
And we started to have some deeper
conversations, and we started to

1637
01:45:52,030 --> 01:45:56,050
break down some barriers.
And, we did a bunch of trust

1638
01:45:56,050 --> 01:45:59,380
exercises where, just to get
people to feel a little bit more

1639
01:45:59,380 --> 01:46:04,750
vulnerable and, and that sort of
started to lay the groundwork for a

1640
01:46:04,750 --> 01:46:09,580
culture today where we all see eye
to eye on what we're trying to do.

1641
01:46:10,090 --> 01:46:13,960, and one thing that I think is
really important for a company is,

1642
01:46:14,350 --> 01:46:18,310
and I think culture is,
I think sometimes it's a little bit,

1643
01:46:18,310 --> 01:46:21,130, overthought.
I think it's very simple.

1644
01:46:21,220 --> 01:46:24,280
I think you you make sure that
there's a vision, and you make

1645
01:46:24,280 --> 01:46:27,730
sure that you clearly communicate
that vision to the people.

1646
01:46:28,450 --> 01:46:31,210
You make sure that people understand
their role in the organization.

1647
01:46:31,210 --> 01:46:33,760
And we have an accountability charts,
not an org chart.

1648
01:46:33,760 --> 01:46:37,240
It's a little bit different,
but it's it's a chart that that

1649
01:46:37,240 --> 01:46:39,550
shows everything that we need
for the company.

1650
01:46:39,550 --> 01:46:42,340
And one person has a name on
each one, so everyone knows what

1651
01:46:42,340 --> 01:46:45,880
they're responsible for, so that when you come in,

1652
01:46:46,450 --> 01:46:49,750
you know what your purpose is.
And I think we need a purpose.

1653
01:46:49,750 --> 01:46:53,860
And and then finally, you,
you show people that you value them

1654
01:46:53,860 --> 01:46:57,160
and that you care for them, and you
want them to be a part of that team.

1655
01:46:57,670 --> 01:47:02,950
And that's resonated so well.
And, we are now we're at the

1656
01:47:02,950 --> 01:47:06,670
point where I like I'm thrilled
with where we are culturally.

1657
01:47:06,700 --> 01:47:10,960
We are firing on all cylinders.
We have a great team environment.

1658
01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:14,170, we have a lot of fun.
We have a lot of random games in

1659
01:47:14,170 --> 01:47:17,920
the office, we have Lydia. She's great.

1660
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:21,970
Last Friday was National pizza Day.
She had a big pizza party and

1661
01:47:21,970 --> 01:47:25,750
pizza trivia, but but really, you know, we're

1662
01:47:25,750 --> 01:47:28,510
all bought in on where we're going.
We all know the direction of the

1663
01:47:28,510 --> 01:47:31,000
company.
We all know what's expected of

1664
01:47:31,000 --> 01:47:34,420
one another, and that really pulls it all

1665
01:47:34,420 --> 01:47:37,390
together,
to where we support one another and

1666
01:47:37,390 --> 01:47:42,250
we show up for one another. So.
Where did this iOS concept come from.

1667
01:47:42,430 --> 01:47:45,760
You know?
Well, when I was about to join

1668
01:47:45,760 --> 01:47:50,320
the company, do you know,
Bonaventure, Dwight Dunton,

1669
01:47:50,320 --> 01:47:54,940
is the is the CEO of Bonaventure.
He started the company, and,

1670
01:47:54,940 --> 01:47:57,280
he'll be he'll be happy that I
mentioned him because we were on

1671
01:47:57,280 --> 01:48:00,760
a bike ride together.
And he said, if you're starting this

1672
01:48:00,760 --> 01:48:05,200
new job and you're about to take
over, you've got to look into iOS.

1673
01:48:05,200 --> 01:48:09,280
And so I did, and I met with, with his consultant,

1674
01:48:09,280 --> 01:48:13,960
and we hired Ben, and Ben's been
kind of like he's helped roll it

1675
01:48:13,960 --> 01:48:17,920
out through the organization.
And and now the board loves it.

1676
01:48:18,520 --> 01:48:21,160,
and everything's run through an app.

1677
01:48:21,160 --> 01:48:23,290
So we document everything that
we're doing.

1678
01:48:23,290 --> 01:48:27,520
We track our we have measurables, we track our quarterly goals.

1679
01:48:28,180 --> 01:48:31,030, they all tie into our long
term strategy.

1680
01:48:31,030 --> 01:48:35,560
So it's one of those things where at
first when you, if I were to tell you

1681
01:48:35,560 --> 01:48:37,900
about it and say, we're going to
roll it out, you would feel like

1682
01:48:37,900 --> 01:48:41,020
it's a big homework assignment.
You would feel like it's an

1683
01:48:41,020 --> 01:48:44,770
extra layer to your job.
Once it's in place,

1684
01:48:45,370 --> 01:48:47,890
it falls to the background and
it's just how you operate.

1685
01:48:47,890 --> 01:48:51,100
It's just how you run your day to day
business. It's how you communicate.

1686
01:48:51,790 --> 01:48:54,730, and it's how you understand
that we're on track and we're

1687
01:48:54,730 --> 01:48:57,580
not on track.
And it's really been a benefit

1688
01:48:57,580 --> 01:49:02,050
because work from home now is a is
a permanent change in our market.

1689
01:49:02,050 --> 01:49:04,810
And so when you have people in
the office or out of the people,

1690
01:49:05,230 --> 01:49:09,400
you don't really, worry so much.
Are they getting their job that

1691
01:49:09,400 --> 01:49:10,990
or not?
Because you have an idea of who's

1692
01:49:10,990 --> 01:49:14,770
working and who's not because of,
you know, interest in the system.

1693
01:49:15,640 --> 01:49:20,770, I,
I was given advice one time about

1694
01:49:20,770 --> 01:49:26,200
how to approach work and especially
in our industry in real estate.

1695
01:49:26,410 --> 01:49:29,500
And what I was told is think
like an owner.

1696
01:49:29,650 --> 01:49:34,930
And that's in essence, what I sense.
What the iOS program is.

1697
01:49:34,960 --> 01:49:37,630
Think like an owner.
So what you're doing is you're

1698
01:49:37,630 --> 01:49:40,990
taking ownership and responsibility
for everything you're doing.

1699
01:49:41,500 --> 01:49:45,700
Right. And that's critical.
And people and people understand

1700
01:49:45,700 --> 01:49:47,290
the ownership.
And one of the most important

1701
01:49:47,290 --> 01:49:49,450
things when I mentioned the
accountability chart,

1702
01:49:49,450 --> 01:49:53,080
when we started that conversation,
some people would say, oh, well,

1703
01:49:53,080 --> 01:49:58,810
that's Jeff and that's James.
And, you know, one person has the

1704
01:49:58,810 --> 01:50:02,380
ownership and that's it. Right.
And so that kind of sets the

1705
01:50:02,380 --> 01:50:06,160
stage for that conversation.
That's great. That's great.

1706
01:50:06,160 --> 01:50:11,380
I'm glad you're able to do that what's your criteria for hiring

1707
01:50:11,800 --> 01:50:18,190
and what do you look for in people, so I learned a lot about I've

1708
01:50:18,190 --> 01:50:21,610
hired a lot of people in my career,
and I think a lot of people I

1709
01:50:21,610 --> 01:50:24,460
work with get frustrated because
I do take my time.

1710
01:50:24,970 --> 01:50:30,130
For me, I could assess someone's
capabilities and experience and

1711
01:50:30,130 --> 01:50:33,850
ability to do the job very quickly.
I think that's the easy part of

1712
01:50:33,850 --> 01:50:36,880
hiring, the hard part is,

1713
01:50:36,880 --> 01:50:40,690
is the personality assessment
and whether or not the person

1714
01:50:40,690 --> 01:50:43,720
has the right character and
whether or not that person is

1715
01:50:43,720 --> 01:50:47,680
going to fit in with your team.
And again, once you once you've

1716
01:50:47,680 --> 01:50:52,270
got a great culture, it only takes
one toxic person to destroy it.

1717
01:50:52,270 --> 01:50:56,020
And so you have to be very, very
careful, when you're bringing

1718
01:50:56,020 --> 01:51:01,210
someone new into the company, so I do spend a lot of time and I

1719
01:51:01,210 --> 01:51:04,990
do try to break down the conversation
to get to a very personal level.

1720
01:51:05,680 --> 01:51:11,380, but collectively as a management
team, we, we look for people

1721
01:51:11,380 --> 01:51:15,820
that share our core values, these are core values that we,

1722
01:51:15,820 --> 01:51:18,490
as a, as a management team came
up with when I started at the

1723
01:51:18,490 --> 01:51:21,880
company and we spent probably 4 or
5 months kind of defining them.

1724
01:51:21,880 --> 01:51:25,690
So they're not they're not phrases
that we just threw on the wall

1725
01:51:25,690 --> 01:51:27,790
and thought, they sound good.
They're things that we live by,

1726
01:51:27,790 --> 01:51:31,150
and every quarter we sit down and
go through our core values and ask

1727
01:51:31,150 --> 01:51:35,260
ourselves, are these two our values, and so that's one of the

1728
01:51:35,260 --> 01:51:39,340
things that we do, we have a thing called do

1729
01:51:39,340 --> 01:51:41,980
they get it, do they want it and
do they have the capacity.

1730
01:51:41,980 --> 01:51:44,890
So that phrase is some of the
questions that we look for.

1731
01:51:44,890 --> 01:51:49,180
But really at the end of the day,
we're just looking we're looking

1732
01:51:49,180 --> 01:51:54,010
for good people, people who are
authentic, people who are sincere,

1733
01:51:54,520 --> 01:51:57,910, and people that we feel like
aren't coming in, you know,

1734
01:51:57,910 --> 01:52:03,580
with an ego for their own, you know,
advancement in life or business.

1735
01:52:03,580 --> 01:52:08,620
But people that would stand by
this team and support us, and,

1736
01:52:08,620 --> 01:52:12,970
and I think that's the most critical.
It's just you just look for,

1737
01:52:12,970 --> 01:52:16,330
someone who you would feel proud
to be a part of your company,

1738
01:52:16,330 --> 01:52:20,590
whether they're in the office or
out in dinner on a Saturday night.

1739
01:52:21,340 --> 01:52:25,810. Great.
So, John, tell me a little bit about

1740
01:52:25,810 --> 01:52:29,380
how the company is reinvesting in
the community and what initiatives

1741
01:52:29,380 --> 01:52:33,670
you have you instituted, John, I would tell you, I'm

1742
01:52:33,670 --> 01:52:38,680
happy to say that I didn't have to, initiate any, planning.

1743
01:52:38,680 --> 01:52:42,100
The company has a long standing
tradition of being very generous

1744
01:52:42,100 --> 01:52:47,650
and giving back to the community, we donate generously, both,

1745
01:52:47,650 --> 01:52:53,080
in terms of of money and in our time, so throughout our, our history,

1746
01:52:53,080 --> 01:52:57,460
we've been involved with over, and supported over 500 local

1747
01:52:57,460 --> 01:53:02,050
charities, we have a, a committee that's

1748
01:53:02,050 --> 01:53:06,790
part of the, the family council where
we do annual planning together.

1749
01:53:06,790 --> 01:53:09,820
So we would, lay out,
you know, the,

1750
01:53:09,820 --> 01:53:12,910
the capital budget for the year,
which is pretty substantial in

1751
01:53:12,910 --> 01:53:17,230
terms of money that we give out, we come up with ideas of who

1752
01:53:17,230 --> 01:53:20,410
we should be supporting.
Some are recurring, some are new,

1753
01:53:20,410 --> 01:53:24,280
but they're all sort of tied to
again, it gets to our values.

1754
01:53:24,280 --> 01:53:27,340
And where do we see a need in
the community?

1755
01:53:27,460 --> 01:53:30,250, where do we see that we can
make an impact?

1756
01:53:30,760 --> 01:53:35,290, and then we work on that
dialogue of, of agreement, and then

1757
01:53:35,290 --> 01:53:40,630
we sort of initiate that plan.
But we also we also make sure that

1758
01:53:40,630 --> 01:53:43,750
it's not just writing checks, we get involved.

1759
01:53:43,750 --> 01:53:48,790
The company here,
and we're very active with,

1760
01:53:49,060 --> 01:53:52,870
daily charity events.
We do a couple each year with

1761
01:53:52,870 --> 01:53:57,520
the Mount Zion Summit.
It's a it's an old cemetery,

1762
01:53:57,520 --> 01:54:04,210
in Georgetown,
predominantly, a burial for

1763
01:54:04,210 --> 01:54:09,340
early slaves in the DC market.
It doesn't really get much support.

1764
01:54:10,060 --> 01:54:13,570, so we go out there and work
throughout the cemetery and cut

1765
01:54:13,570 --> 01:54:15,640
the weeds.
We clean the stones, we help

1766
01:54:15,640 --> 01:54:20,050
build stairs through the hills.
And, and that's just a nice,

1767
01:54:20,050 --> 01:54:22,780, way to give back to that
part of the community.

1768
01:54:22,780 --> 01:54:27,700
We, we sponsor a young student at
WJ, the Washington Jesuit Academy

1769
01:54:27,700 --> 01:54:32,020
downtown. He's an amazing young guy, and we spent a lot of time with

1770
01:54:32,020 --> 01:54:34,710
him. We go to. With sporting events.
We go see him at school.

1771
01:54:34,710 --> 01:54:37,860
He gives us a tour of his classrooms, interesting.

1772
01:54:37,860 --> 01:54:39,870
So and there's a number of other
things.

1773
01:54:39,870 --> 01:54:43,740
We're going out in a couple of
weeks to support, one of the

1774
01:54:43,740 --> 01:54:48,450
children's hospitals, and,
and the team will go out shopping

1775
01:54:48,450 --> 01:54:51,000
one day, and then the team will go
out to the hospital the next day

1776
01:54:51,000 --> 01:54:54,300
and deliver gifts and presents.
So it's always been,

1777
01:54:54,300 --> 01:54:56,640
sort of something deeply rooted
in the company.

1778
01:54:56,640 --> 01:55:00,270
And I was very happy to hear it
as we were talking about,

1779
01:55:00,270 --> 01:55:04,740
me joining the organization, and it's it's a lot of fun and

1780
01:55:04,740 --> 01:55:08,100
it's somewhat fulfilling to be a part
of those decisions and be active.

1781
01:55:08,490 --> 01:55:13,440
That's great. That's awesome.
So how do you view sustainability

1782
01:55:13,440 --> 01:55:16,740
and has that definition changed
as a result of the pandemic?

1783
01:55:17,250 --> 01:55:23,070, we're very sustainable, driven, we obviously think it's an

1784
01:55:23,070 --> 01:55:26,970
integral part of our industry and our
business and everything that we do.

1785
01:55:27,720 --> 01:55:32,370, whether it's a major tenant
buildout, whether it's some,

1786
01:55:32,370 --> 01:55:36,570
modification to a project or, a major renovation,

1787
01:55:36,570 --> 01:55:40,350
we we always strive for Leed
certification on all aspects.

1788
01:55:40,470 --> 01:55:45,180
We're cognizant, in all of our
annual budgeting processes that we do

1789
01:55:45,180 --> 01:55:50,100
in terms of what can we be doing, to create more efficiency.

1790
01:55:50,100 --> 01:55:53,670
The one thing that we're talking
about, that does, you know,

1791
01:55:53,670 --> 01:55:59,280
relate to the pandemic is we've got
these large office properties which

1792
01:55:59,280 --> 01:56:05,430
are, very energy, right.
They're using a lot of energy 9 to 5,

1793
01:56:05,430 --> 01:56:07,770
Monday through Friday,
just to be open.

1794
01:56:08,070 --> 01:56:09,750
Unfortunately,
they're not getting used.

1795
01:56:09,750 --> 01:56:13,410
So we're thinking about ways
that we can modify the usage in

1796
01:56:13,410 --> 01:56:17,430
certain aspects of the building
so that we're not wasting energy,

1797
01:56:17,820 --> 01:56:23,070, through Hvac or for lighting, when, you know, 80% of the

1798
01:56:23,070 --> 01:56:26,940
tenants aren't coming to the space, so that's sort of near and

1799
01:56:26,940 --> 01:56:30,960
dear to us.
And, and it's, you know,

1800
01:56:31,620 --> 01:56:33,900
it's a bit of a challenge.
There's, there's a lot of

1801
01:56:33,900 --> 01:56:36,600
different aspects of things that
you can put into place.

1802
01:56:36,600 --> 01:56:39,990
But we have older projects and
as you know, it's sometimes

1803
01:56:39,990 --> 01:56:44,430
difficult to marry some of the new
innovative ways of environmental

1804
01:56:44,430 --> 01:56:49,560
efficiencies with an older building.
So you've had to upgrade buildings

1805
01:56:49,560 --> 01:56:54,600
to increase its. We are.
Yeah, yeah. Energy ability.

1806
01:56:56,350 --> 01:57:00,460
So, what about,
ESG in general?

1807
01:57:00,460 --> 01:57:03,850
Do you have a company policy for
that? We do, we do.

1808
01:57:03,850 --> 01:57:06,340
And we,
we developed that last year.

1809
01:57:06,670 --> 01:57:10,660, I think we're a company that
sort of always had ESG.

1810
01:57:10,690 --> 01:57:14,140
It was just never defined. Right.
So we talk about the environmental

1811
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:18,190
impact that we think about, on the social side.

1812
01:57:18,280 --> 01:57:21,490, obviously we're involved with
the community and all of those

1813
01:57:21,490 --> 01:57:24,970
charitable organizations as a,
as a management team, we're also

1814
01:57:24,970 --> 01:57:31,840
very involved in our neighborhoods, and just from the,

1815
01:57:31,840 --> 01:57:34,510
you know, from the Friendship Heights
Alliance and what we're trying to

1816
01:57:34,510 --> 01:57:38,260
do with the community here,
engaging with the members of the

1817
01:57:38,260 --> 01:57:42,370
community and supporting,
and making it a better neighborhood.

1818
01:57:42,370 --> 01:57:46,330
So the management team is very
involved, not just from a charitable

1819
01:57:46,330 --> 01:57:51,310
community purpose, but also impact.
And again, working with the Chevy

1820
01:57:51,310 --> 01:57:55,450
Chase Historical Society and others.
So that, again, has been something.

1821
01:57:55,450 --> 01:57:59,020
And then governance has has been
in place.

1822
01:57:59,110 --> 01:58:03,100, you know, that we were always
sort of monitoring and checking

1823
01:58:03,100 --> 01:58:07,420
the integrity of our work,
from a number of different angles.

1824
01:58:07,420 --> 01:58:10,240
But obviously the board of directors,
as we've discussed,

1825
01:58:10,240 --> 01:58:13,540
is very structured, we've got very stringent

1826
01:58:13,540 --> 01:58:17,410
policies and procedures.
Some we've developed recently.

1827
01:58:17,620 --> 01:58:20,470, we have a code of conduct
within the organization.

1828
01:58:21,010 --> 01:58:26,290, and, obviously we had bylaws
that were governed by. Sure.

1829
01:58:26,380 --> 01:58:30,190, and so at EOS,
I feel like is a new part of our

1830
01:58:30,190 --> 01:58:33,220
governance because it's also a way, if you were to come into the

1831
01:58:33,220 --> 01:58:37,000
company without any knowledge,
you could access that information

1832
01:58:37,000 --> 01:58:40,360
and kind of see what we're doing,
and that creates transparency.

1833
01:58:40,600 --> 01:58:44,350
So, so I feel like we've always
had the ESG, but we've recently

1834
01:58:44,350 --> 01:58:47,350
defined it and we've kind of rolled
it out to the company and to our

1835
01:58:47,380 --> 01:58:55,050
to our peers. That's great.
In development projects,

1836
01:58:55,050 --> 01:58:58,590
who manage what are the best ways
to mitigate risk, in your opinion?

1837
01:58:59,940 --> 01:59:03,240
You know,
that's a great question.

1838
01:59:03,240 --> 01:59:09,600
And, the, the first reaction,
I would say somewhat facetiously,

1839
01:59:09,600 --> 01:59:12,180
is you should know all of the risks
before you embark on one. Right.

1840
01:59:12,180 --> 01:59:15,300
But we all know that that's
that's not possible.

1841
01:59:15,660 --> 01:59:20,400, I would tell you, John,
based on my experience,

1842
01:59:20,970 --> 01:59:24,660
the number one way to mitigate
risk is to have great partners.

1843
01:59:25,200 --> 01:59:30,570, you got to have a strong working
relationship, and, and you've got

1844
01:59:30,570 --> 01:59:35,400
to trust the team that you're with.
You can diligence something as much

1845
01:59:35,400 --> 01:59:39,000
as you want, and you can think
you've uncovered all of the risks,

1846
01:59:39,000 --> 01:59:43,110
and then you can embark on a project, and if you embarked on that

1847
01:59:43,110 --> 01:59:49,980
project in the summer of 2019,
you would be about to, be faced

1848
01:59:49,980 --> 01:59:54,990
with a massive worldwide pandemic.
You can't underwrite that.

1849
01:59:54,990 --> 01:59:57,270
You can't anticipate that.
And that's where the strength,

1850
01:59:57,270 --> 02:00:00,090
you know, of the partnership
comes into play, because you can

1851
02:00:00,090 --> 02:00:03,570
weather any storm if you've got the
right group of people together.

1852
02:00:04,170 --> 02:00:09,630, I've always found in my mind
the best, the best partnerships are

1853
02:00:09,630 --> 02:00:14,310
the ones that one year finished the
project and it's done and it's sold.

1854
02:00:14,430 --> 02:00:18,150
You've never once pulled out
your your operating agreement.

1855
02:00:18,150 --> 02:00:21,960
You've never had to reference a
clause and say, this is why you

1856
02:00:21,960 --> 02:00:25,830
need to be doing this.
Those documents are heavily

1857
02:00:25,830 --> 02:00:28,320
negotiated,
but if you're with the right team,

1858
02:00:28,320 --> 02:00:31,530
they should be put on to the side and
you should complete the project.

1859
02:00:31,530 --> 02:00:35,310
And if there's a challenge,
you sit down and you and you

1860
02:00:35,310 --> 02:00:38,820
talk to each other and you and
you tackle it together.

1861
02:00:39,270 --> 02:00:42,030, well, you talk about
partnership from an equity

1862
02:00:42,030 --> 02:00:47,940
standpoint is what I'm gathering.
But to me, partnership is not only

1863
02:00:47,940 --> 02:00:52,140
that, but with your contractors,
with your tenants,

1864
02:00:52,380 --> 02:00:56,190
with the governments that you're in.
All of those are partners,

1865
02:00:56,190 --> 02:00:59,970
right? Right, right.
And so each of them have their own

1866
02:00:59,970 --> 02:01:03,780
intricacies in the relationship.
But you want everyone to kind of

1867
02:01:03,780 --> 02:01:07,470
work in concert.
So it's a win win win win win across

1868
02:01:07,470 --> 02:01:11,160
the board right. Absolutely. Yeah.
And that's obviously ingrained in my

1869
02:01:11,160 --> 02:01:15,120
upbringing in the real estate world
from the equity joint ventures and

1870
02:01:15,120 --> 02:01:19,830
that that kind of monetary aspect.
But it you know, and it's obviously

1871
02:01:19,920 --> 02:01:23,850
the the development partnership and
the equity partnership are critical.

1872
02:01:23,850 --> 02:01:30,330
But if everything below that is weak,
well that just a crumbling disaster.

1873
02:01:30,330 --> 02:01:32,760
Right.
And especially now if you're in

1874
02:01:32,760 --> 02:01:36,420
the office building business
relationships with your tenants

1875
02:01:36,930 --> 02:01:39,510
are probably more important now
than they've ever been. Yeah.

1876
02:01:40,020 --> 02:01:43,950
And that's one thing.
When I started and and I learned

1877
02:01:43,950 --> 02:01:49,020
a little bit of this throughout
my career, we we this company has

1878
02:01:49,020 --> 02:01:54,540
today really one source of revenue.
And it's a rent check. Yes. Okay.

1879
02:01:54,540 --> 02:01:59,640
So those are our partners right.
So every tenant in our throughout

1880
02:01:59,640 --> 02:02:04,860
our entire portfolio, you know,
from the restaurant downstairs to,

1881
02:02:04,860 --> 02:02:09,450
to the 30,000 square foot office
user, that's our partnership.

1882
02:02:09,900 --> 02:02:12,780
And in today's environment, we need
to be treating them like partners.

1883
02:02:12,780 --> 02:02:15,000
We need to be working together.
Exactly.

1884
02:02:15,090 --> 02:02:18,720, there should not be a
landlord tenant relationship.

1885
02:02:18,720 --> 02:02:20,880
There needs to be.
We are invested together.

1886
02:02:20,880 --> 02:02:24,090
You've invested in your business.
You're in our property.

1887
02:02:24,090 --> 02:02:27,150
We want to invest in you and we
want to see you survive.

1888
02:02:27,150 --> 02:02:29,640
And so that's the mentality that
we take with people.

1889
02:02:29,640 --> 02:02:33,030
And it's especially true with
our restaurants, right?

1890
02:02:33,030 --> 02:02:36,240
There's a challenge across the
industry on a number of fronts

1891
02:02:36,360 --> 02:02:39,660
and everyone's dealing with it.
And we need to be sitting with

1892
02:02:39,660 --> 02:02:42,180
them at the table to help work
through that.

1893
02:02:42,180 --> 02:02:46,770
And it and it's becoming more of
a win win, conversation

1894
02:02:46,770 --> 02:02:52,860
because we can't we can't impose
a lease that was negotiated five

1895
02:02:52,860 --> 02:02:56,880
years in today's environment.
We just can't, we we would hope so

1896
02:02:56,880 --> 02:03:00,870
because that's our, our contract.
But we want all of our tenants

1897
02:03:00,870 --> 02:03:03,000
to survive.
We want to work with them to get

1898
02:03:03,000 --> 02:03:05,670
through these challenges, and that's the mentality

1899
02:03:05,670 --> 02:03:11,190
that we have to take.
I didn't put it on here, but I'm

1900
02:03:11,190 --> 02:03:15,990
curious if you've had attorneys
that have helped you structure a

1901
02:03:15,990 --> 02:03:19,890
relationship, you know, your leases
to make it more like a partnership as

1902
02:03:19,890 --> 02:03:23,760
opposed to a landlord tenant,
relationship. Just out of curiosity.

1903
02:03:24,450 --> 02:03:27,240
Not specifically, not specifically,

1904
02:03:27,240 --> 02:03:32,010
but we do make a point, we do make a point that when

1905
02:03:32,010 --> 02:03:35,280
we do a lease with a tenant,
we're not putting a document together

1906
02:03:35,280 --> 02:03:38,790
that sets them up for failure. Right.
Because that's the last thing

1907
02:03:38,790 --> 02:03:40,560
you want.
And you almost you almost want

1908
02:03:40,560 --> 02:03:44,190
to look at it and and does this
make sense for you? Right.

1909
02:03:44,190 --> 02:03:46,560
Does these numbers really work
for you?

1910
02:03:46,560 --> 02:03:49,920
Because I would rather us sign a
document that you feel good about.

1911
02:03:50,280 --> 02:03:54,120
Then for us to feel like we got
this win and it feels good on

1912
02:03:54,120 --> 02:03:56,760
this side of the table.
And a year later we're dealing

1913
02:03:56,760 --> 02:04:00,990
with a challenge. Yeah. It retail.
It's easier to measure that.

1914
02:04:00,990 --> 02:04:03,870
It's harder in the office side
to measure that. Yeah.

1915
02:04:04,110 --> 02:04:08,760
But you know you have to learn.
Yes. It's not easy.

1916
02:04:09,360 --> 02:04:12,540, so now let's shift to
personal things.

1917
02:04:12,600 --> 02:04:17,010, what are your life priorities
among family, work and giving back,

1918
02:04:17,010 --> 02:04:23,250
John. Somewhat cliche.
I have a wife and three children.

1919
02:04:23,250 --> 02:04:26,790
They're they're younger, and you always hear that, you

1920
02:04:26,790 --> 02:04:29,910
know, enjoy the time while you can.
I've heard that for a long time.

1921
02:04:29,910 --> 02:04:36,300
And, I love my family immensely.
And it's my number one priority.

1922
02:04:36,750 --> 02:04:39,990, and I try to give them as
much as I can.

1923
02:04:40,530 --> 02:04:44,610, and I try to be there, you know,
every step of the way. And I.

1924
02:04:44,610 --> 02:04:48,690
And I do really appreciate the
fact that, you know,

1925
02:04:48,690 --> 02:04:53,580
my my daughter, she's 13.
The window that I have, you know,

1926
02:04:53,730 --> 02:04:55,530
the window that you have,
you with your child, your children

1927
02:04:55,530 --> 02:04:58,980
are with you for your entire life.
But there's a window that's the

1928
02:04:58,980 --> 02:05:02,340
most important window.
And that's a very brief period

1929
02:05:02,340 --> 02:05:04,080
of time. Right?
So I'm trying to really take

1930
02:05:04,080 --> 02:05:07,380
advantage of that because she's
already she's a young lady.

1931
02:05:07,380 --> 02:05:10,830
She's she's making friendships.
She's becoming independent.

1932
02:05:10,830 --> 02:05:14,100
She's thinking about her future.
And we're here for her to

1933
02:05:14,100 --> 02:05:17,760
support her, but I have to recognize that

1934
02:05:17,760 --> 02:05:22,110
she's her own individual.
And very soon, you know,

1935
02:05:22,110 --> 02:05:25,080
my wife and I, we're going to
blink our eyes and wonder.

1936
02:05:25,080 --> 02:05:27,720
Maybe we'll see the kids this summer.
Maybe we won't, depending on

1937
02:05:27,720 --> 02:05:30,210
what they're doing with their
lives and their families. Right.

1938
02:05:30,300 --> 02:05:34,260
And so I am trying to really
harness the the moment,

1939
02:05:34,260 --> 02:05:38,550
my children are 13, ten and six.
And so it's it's great.

1940
02:05:38,550 --> 02:05:40,500
They're they're kind of my life.
They make me young.

1941
02:05:40,500 --> 02:05:42,840
I feel great when I get home and
they're there for me.

1942
02:05:43,020 --> 02:05:48,900
And then after that, I,
I actually try mentally and

1943
02:05:48,900 --> 02:05:52,170
physically to make my second
priority a little bit about myself.

1944
02:05:52,350 --> 02:05:56,610
I know it sounds selfish, but I
feel like too often we sacrifice

1945
02:05:56,610 --> 02:06:00,750
everything else and we don't really
look too much at our own well-being.

1946
02:06:00,750 --> 02:06:05,130
And I, I personally feel like I,
I can't be my best to everybody

1947
02:06:05,130 --> 02:06:07,650
else unless I feel like I'm my
best to myself.

1948
02:06:07,860 --> 02:06:11,790
So I mentally,
layer that into the conversation.

1949
02:06:11,790 --> 02:06:15,510
And then outside of that is,
you know, you know, professional

1950
02:06:15,510 --> 02:06:19,230
activities and, and giving back,
you know, to the community and,

1951
02:06:19,350 --> 02:06:22,710
and, and I'm so passionate about
what we've got going on here at

1952
02:06:22,710 --> 02:06:24,690
the Chevy Chase Land Company.
And,

1953
02:06:24,810 --> 02:06:28,380
and I love the people I work with.
And it's a blessing that I get to

1954
02:06:28,380 --> 02:06:32,070
come in and be excited about my day
and get excited about the people that

1955
02:06:32,070 --> 02:06:35,250
I'm working with and excited about
the projects that we're working on.

1956
02:06:35,970 --> 02:06:40,590, and, and I've always been someone
to be involved in the community,

1957
02:06:40,590 --> 02:06:44,190
and I'm involved in several
boards outside of the company.

1958
02:06:44,730 --> 02:06:47,040,
but I have made a conscious decision.

1959
02:06:47,100 --> 02:06:50,760, you know, I'm pulling back a
little bit because I do feel like

1960
02:06:50,760 --> 02:06:53,700
sometimes I'm just getting pulled
in too many different directions,

1961
02:06:53,820 --> 02:06:56,220
and that's coming back to my
number one priority.

1962
02:06:56,220 --> 02:06:59,760
And so I've got to balance that
for now, because I do think I do

1963
02:06:59,760 --> 02:07:03,390
think there's ebbs and flows in
life and how you dedicate and

1964
02:07:03,390 --> 02:07:07,740
share your time. So yeah.
It's it's a balance,

1965
02:07:07,950 --> 02:07:14,040
but it's a balance in some respects, and then it's priorities.

1966
02:07:14,040 --> 02:07:17,160
And as you say,
things change over time.

1967
02:07:17,160 --> 02:07:19,320
You just have to kind of let it
evolve. Right.

1968
02:07:20,580 --> 02:07:23,850, what are your biggest wins,
losses and most surprising

1969
02:07:23,850 --> 02:07:28,940
events in your career?
I would say is I think is I

1970
02:07:28,940 --> 02:07:31,670
think about that question.
I think your first instinct with

1971
02:07:31,670 --> 02:07:34,550
wins is the deal, right?
What deal was the best?

1972
02:07:34,550 --> 02:07:39,860
And there's a couple of those.
But, as I reflect on my career,

1973
02:07:40,100 --> 02:07:43,400
I think my biggest win is
falling into the space.

1974
02:07:43,850 --> 02:07:49,370, I was lucky that I was invited to
join our resources because that's

1975
02:07:49,370 --> 02:07:52,130
what put me into real estate.
And and frankly, I don't know if I

1976
02:07:52,130 --> 02:07:55,340
would have found my way into the
space without that opportunity.

1977
02:07:55,340 --> 02:07:59,030
But more importantly,
I've had a I've had a great career,

1978
02:07:59,030 --> 02:08:02,270
and I love the space.
And I think we're all privileged

1979
02:08:02,270 --> 02:08:05,030
to work with so many great,
inspiring people.

1980
02:08:05,420 --> 02:08:09,320
And I'm and I'm very, very
thankful for throughout my career,

1981
02:08:10,220 --> 02:08:16,760
I can't really recall ever working
with someone who wasn't a good,

1982
02:08:16,760 --> 02:08:19,250
kind, sincere person.
I've been very lucky that everyone

1983
02:08:19,250 --> 02:08:25,190
that I've worked with, I view
them as just high integrity, great

1984
02:08:25,190 --> 02:08:29,420
representatives of our industry, people that always give back.

1985
02:08:29,420 --> 02:08:32,000
And, you know,
I can't be more thankful for that.

1986
02:08:32,000 --> 02:08:36,470
I would say if, if you ever
find yourself in a situation where

1987
02:08:36,470 --> 02:08:38,720
you feel like you're working with
someone who makes you feel bad

1988
02:08:38,720 --> 02:08:41,300
about yourself when you get home,
you gotta make a change.

1989
02:08:41,420 --> 02:08:44,420
I never had that thought,
and I'm lucky that I didn't.

1990
02:08:45,140 --> 02:08:49,760
So, that's great.
So I think that's probably,

1991
02:08:50,420 --> 02:08:53,150
probably my biggest one,
I would say from a loss.

1992
02:08:53,270 --> 02:08:56,240, and again, when you think about
loss, you think about what you know,

1993
02:08:56,540 --> 02:08:59,060
about the global financial crisis.
You think about the company shutting

1994
02:08:59,060 --> 02:09:04,190
down those difficult times.
I've I've worked with several great

1995
02:09:04,190 --> 02:09:08,900
teams of people, and every
step of the way from RA to ASP to

1996
02:09:08,900 --> 02:09:14,840
bear Co to McCaffrey to here and,
and oftentimes, you know,

1997
02:09:14,840 --> 02:09:18,830
I feel like I'm, I'm always a
part of the team and I'm always,

1998
02:09:18,830 --> 02:09:22,310, interacting and social and
trying to help cultivate culture.

1999
02:09:23,060 --> 02:09:26,540
And you get to a point where you
feel like you've got a group and you

2000
02:09:26,540 --> 02:09:30,350
feel like we can do anything, right.
We're just clicking on all cylinders,

2001
02:09:30,350 --> 02:09:33,770
and we're coming in together and
we can tackle the world,

2002
02:09:33,770 --> 02:09:36,680
and then things change,
events unfold and you've got to make

2003
02:09:36,680 --> 02:09:40,340
a change. And that's difficult.
Leaving those environments and then

2004
02:09:40,340 --> 02:09:43,730
moving into the unknown, I feel like
is always a bit of a challenge.

2005
02:09:43,910 --> 02:09:48,080, it always has been for my career, I'm lucky that I still keep

2006
02:09:48,080 --> 02:09:51,740
in touch with people,
you know, every step of the way.

2007
02:09:52,760 --> 02:09:57,980
And then I would tell you, you know,
my biggest surprise and probably

2008
02:09:57,980 --> 02:10:02,960
this, this is a little bit more
about who I am and and my,

2009
02:10:02,960 --> 02:10:06,860
earlier life.
The biggest surprise is it's not

2010
02:10:06,860 --> 02:10:10,040
the smartest person in the room is
going to be the most successful.

2011
02:10:10,760 --> 02:10:15,320
It's the most determined and the
most passionate person who's going

2012
02:10:15,320 --> 02:10:21,290
to lead a team or lead a project.
Those those two traits trump

2013
02:10:21,290 --> 02:10:25,010
intelligence any day of the week.
And in fact, I've learned, you know,

2014
02:10:25,010 --> 02:10:29,330
in commercial real estate especially,
you know, ignorance is bliss.

2015
02:10:29,570 --> 02:10:32,960
Sometimes a little bit of not knowing
can help you get through a deal,

2016
02:10:32,960 --> 02:10:36,980
because there's there's a lot of
ways for you to say no to something

2017
02:10:36,980 --> 02:10:42,560
when you uncover, like, everything.
So, so that would be, you know,

2018
02:10:42,560 --> 02:10:46,490
in my mind, a bit of a surprise.
It's really passion and grit that

2019
02:10:46,490 --> 02:10:48,590
gets you through this world,
no question.

2020
02:10:48,590 --> 02:10:51,980
In our industry, it takes passionate
grit to get things done. Yeah.

2021
02:10:52,790 --> 02:10:57,410, one of the most exciting
things for me is just the every

2022
02:10:57,410 --> 02:10:59,900
day is a new day.
And you have you just don't know

2023
02:10:59,900 --> 02:11:04,370
what you're going to be in for.
So being ready and building up for

2024
02:11:04,400 --> 02:11:09,740
that, you know, and having that
belief that what you don't know,

2025
02:11:09,740 --> 02:11:13,760
you don't know and you just got to
keep going. Yeah. Right. Right.

2026
02:11:16,310 --> 02:11:20,630, so what advice would you give
your 25 year old self today, John?

2027
02:11:21,350 --> 02:11:28,430
So I would, as I think back
to my 25 year old self,

2028
02:11:28,430 --> 02:11:31,220
there's a lot of different things
I would probably, say.

2029
02:11:31,220 --> 02:11:33,680
And one would be keep doing what
you're doing.

2030
02:11:33,860 --> 02:11:41,090, but one thing that I heard a lot
and, never fully appreciated

2031
02:11:41,420 --> 02:11:46,100
was your network, and I had a
close network, but I was never one

2032
02:11:46,100 --> 02:11:50,420
that was really out and about.
And and I don't mean,

2033
02:11:50,420 --> 02:11:53,510
network in the sense that you're
trying to leverage other people,

2034
02:11:53,510 --> 02:11:58,220
but I would tell my younger self,
take every opportunity that you can

2035
02:11:58,430 --> 02:12:02,870
to sit down with someone senior in
your profession or in any profession,

2036
02:12:03,080 --> 02:12:08,540
ask for 30 minute coffee,
ask for a dinner or a lunch, and just

2037
02:12:08,540 --> 02:12:14,480
listen to that person's experience, and listen to, their story.

2038
02:12:14,480 --> 02:12:19,190
And I think you'd I find so much
knowledge and insight just by

2039
02:12:19,190 --> 02:12:22,370
listening to other people.
And I feel like most people in

2040
02:12:22,370 --> 02:12:25,370
our space, you.
Especially if you're persistent.

2041
02:12:25,370 --> 02:12:28,580
And you.
Demonstrate a genuine desire to

2042
02:12:28,580 --> 02:12:31,910
sit down and talk with someone.
That person will find time for you.

2043
02:12:32,480 --> 02:12:35,810, and they'll be open to share
those thoughts and ideas.

2044
02:12:35,810 --> 02:12:38,930
But don't do it because you're
trying to gain something from

2045
02:12:38,930 --> 02:12:42,110
the conversation.
Don't come at it with a. All right.

2046
02:12:42,290 --> 02:12:45,500
Now I have that meeting and now
I'm going to I'm going to I'm

2047
02:12:45,500 --> 02:12:47,840
going to work that angle and I'm
going to try to get personal.

2048
02:12:48,020 --> 02:12:51,860
Just learn, you know, be a sponge.
Listen to what people have

2049
02:12:51,860 --> 02:12:56,450
experienced.
And, and you'll find that

2050
02:12:56,810 --> 02:13:00,200
down the road in your career,
some things that you hear are

2051
02:13:00,200 --> 02:13:03,710
things that have resonated and
that add value to you.

2052
02:13:04,610 --> 02:13:10,970
Did you have mentors in your career?
I wouldn't say,

2053
02:13:10,970 --> 02:13:16,700
I had people that looked after me.
I had people that I think,

2054
02:13:16,700 --> 02:13:21,320
thought that I had.
I had some potential and gave me

2055
02:13:21,320 --> 02:13:26,540
some advice and suggestions.
I never really had a proper mentor,

2056
02:13:26,540 --> 02:13:29,960
but I have had the privilege of
working with a lot of people that,

2057
02:13:30,080 --> 02:13:33,530, I sometimes tried to emulate.
Sure.

2058
02:13:33,710 --> 02:13:35,810,
sometimes thought those are values

2059
02:13:35,810 --> 02:13:40,070
that I want people to see in me, and I and like I said, I've had a

2060
02:13:40,070 --> 02:13:44,630
lot of people that have they,
they've been very helpful for me

2061
02:13:44,630 --> 02:13:47,510
and they've guided me in certain
directions. That's great. Yeah.

2062
02:13:48,290 --> 02:13:51,770
So if you could post a statement
on a billboard on the Capitol

2063
02:13:51,770 --> 02:13:54,950
Beltway for millions to see,
what would it say, John?

2064
02:13:55,730 --> 02:13:57,620
You know,
I knew that question was coming.

2065
02:13:57,620 --> 02:14:00,410
And and obviously,
it's one that most people probably

2066
02:14:00,410 --> 02:14:04,160
give a lot of a lot of thought to, and I love the question.

2067
02:14:04,940 --> 02:14:11,660, I would say, John, in honor of, Bob Marley's docu drama

2068
02:14:11,660 --> 02:14:16,010
released yesterday, One Love,
I would want the billboard to

2069
02:14:16,010 --> 02:14:21,230
say every little thing is going
to be all right. That's great.

2070
02:14:21,230 --> 02:14:25,850
And I say that because I feel like
too many of us, me included, we

2071
02:14:25,850 --> 02:14:31,160
oftentimes carry a huge burden on our
shoulders of things that are rather

2072
02:14:31,160 --> 02:14:35,420
trivial in life when you compare
them to what's really important.

2073
02:14:36,230 --> 02:14:40,460, and, and so, yeah,
just let some of the little

2074
02:14:40,460 --> 02:14:44,090
things go and don't worry.
So, John, thank you very much. Yeah.

2075
02:14:44,120 --> 02:14:46,640
Thank you John. Appreciate it.
It's been very good. Yeah.

2076
02:14:46,640 --> 02:14:48,950
It's been wonderful. Thank you.
Very much. Appreciate it.