John Coe 00:01:29  Thank you for joining me for another episode of icons of DC Area Real Estate. My guest for today's show is Rachel Flynn. Rachel is a DC native. She grew up here and went to school at Catholic University and then went on into the architectural profession. She up until July of this year, she had worked as the deputy county executive of Fairfax County, Virginia.

John Coe 00:02:53  But now, this just this summer, she relocated to Greeley, Colorado, and is now the deputy city manager of Greeley. So during this interview, I actually interviewed her in May and didn't know she was making that move. And then I learned subsequently. So we had a subsequent conversation just recently. This was, in late August. So, this conversation, this will be released in September. So we have two, basically two conversations with Rachael, and the first one was in May, and it talks about her career up until Fairfax, and then we talk about her Colorado venture. So some takeaways for this conversation is that she was in architecture. then she went on to Harvard's planning school at Kennedy School, learned that and went into the public sector and had several roles, starting at the city of Lynchburg, Virginia as the planning director, then the city of Richmond, Virginia. Then she went to Abu Dhabi, the Middle East. She came back to the United States and took on the city of Oakland, California, then two private sector jobs, one with Lennar, the home builder, and the second one with Google in California.

John Coe 00:04:18  So she was in California for about eight years, nine years, and then came back to Fairfax County, Virginia, and she was there for four years until four and a half until she left recently to go to Greeley. she brings a new urbanist approach to the planning sector. you know, very forward thinking. She comes from a somewhat of a activist political background with her family. So she's very, on top of it and very assertive in her her moves, which had was controversial and occasionally so. You'll hear about it in this, interesting conversation with Rachel Flynn. Please enjoy. So welcome, Rachel. Thank you for joining me for icons of DC area real Estate. I've reviewed your background in the introduction. you joined Fairfax County as deputy county executive.

Rachel Flynn 00:05:18  Planning and development recently?

John Coe 00:05:21  before we dig further in that, please tell us about your origins and youth and parental influences, if you would, please.

Rachel Flynn 00:05:28  Of course. I grew up actually in this area. I was born in Washington, George Washington Hospital, and, my parents had lived in the district but moved out to, the suburbs in Silver Spring, out by Springbrook High School.

Rachel Flynn 00:05:44  You know where that is? Yeah. And, so I grew up in Montgomery County, Maryland. but went back and forth between public and private schools and, Irish Catholic family. And so we went to some Catholic schools and my dad was in politics. He was a lawyer who worked for Hubert Humphrey for a time. He was his legislative aide in the Senate. So every senator has what they call an LA. And he did that. And that was in the early 60s. So he was actually part of the, the writing of the civil rights bill and the voting rights bill that Humphrey was so passionate about. It's why he joined him. And he was my dad was originally from Minnesota. So that was the link. And what was interesting, a lot of Minnesotans were coming to DC, Walter Mondale, Eugene McCarthy, Humphrey and others. So.

John Coe 00:06:38  So he was LBJ's vice president. He was right. So LBJ was really the civil rights guy. He was.

Rachel Flynn 00:06:45  Yes.

John Coe 00:06:46  Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 00:06:46  And Humphrey first introduced it in the famous 1948 speech that he gave, saying we have got to do.

John Coe 00:06:53  I didn't realize it went back that far. 1948. My goodness.

Rachel Flynn 00:06:57  Yeah. The famous line people say it's too soon. I say we're 100 years too late. And so he was the one who really pushed it through with Johnson. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It was fascinating time. And then my mom, she's originally from New York City, Irish immigrant parents. And, came down to D.C. to go to Catholic. You. And she was, working on her doctorate, and then she actually joined the convent and went to Lourdes in France and was a Carmelite. It was really she was a novitiate. They called them to see if you like it, if they like it. And she, decided she had met my dad before she left. So I think she decided she wanted to come back and be with him and have a family. So there are six kids and the family. I'm in the middle. I know you're wondering how that works, but I have a twin brother. So we're in the middle.

Rachel Flynn 00:07:55  And then she started working part time as a social worker, therapist, and then, went back to Catholic and became a professor of social work until she died. Sadly, they died in the 80s. They were young and there they were in their 60s. So that was sad. But, we all pulled together and it was a great upbringing, a lot of political activism. My parents were very interested and, you know, the antiwar movement and civil rights movement. And I remember coming down here a lot for marches, for speeches and whatnot. And D.C. was a very different city then, as you know. Sure. Yeah, there was northwest, which was, you know, fine and wealthy for the most part. But where we're sitting today in Union Market, that was a very different place.

John Coe 00:08:42  Riots.

Rachel Flynn 00:08:43  We did. Yeah. I remember my mom had us go around the neighborhood and collect food in a wheelbarrow. Wow. My sister really we were so embarrassed. We didn't want to do it.

Rachel Flynn 00:08:53  But now we look back and go yeah we were a part of that part of that movement.

John Coe 00:08:58  How old were you when the when the speech on the mall took place, Martin Luther King's speech?

Rachel Flynn 00:09:02  I would have been four for. Yeah, I didn't yeah, I didn't go to that.

John Coe 00:09:07  But your parents go to that.

Rachel Flynn 00:09:09  You know, I don't know if they were. Yeah. They might have put in that movement.

John Coe 00:09:12  I would think they would have.

Rachel Flynn 00:09:13  You would have thought, yeah, I'll have to ask my siblings. That never has never come up. That's interesting. Uhhuh.

John Coe 00:09:19  Because that was such an incredible time in Washington.

Rachel Flynn 00:09:21  It was it was exciting.

John Coe 00:09:23  So where did you go to high school?

Rachel Flynn 00:09:25  I went to Springbrook for one year, and then I switched to Holy Cross, which is in Kensington. Yes.

John Coe 00:09:31  That's very close to where I live.

Rachel Flynn 00:09:33  Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to be, in a smaller school. It was all girls. It was perfect. I really, really enjoyed it.

Rachel Flynn 00:09:41  My sisters went to Stone Ridge. Half the family was like public school, half was private, so we had a nice blend of it all.

John Coe 00:09:49  Well, since your mother taught at Catholic, I assume that's why you went there. Is that part of the reason or.

Rachel Flynn 00:09:54  Yes. So she said, okay, kids, here's how it works. You can go to Catholic you for free, or go where you want and pay so well.

John Coe 00:10:02  Okay.

Rachel Flynn 00:10:04  We got dozens of degrees that are Catholic. You I loved it. It was a great school. It was a great school.

John Coe 00:10:09  So is that where you got interested in architecture. Because I know that was your interest.

Rachel Flynn 00:10:15  Well interestingly my dad before he switched to law he was an architecture major in University of Minnesota and someone said you should be a lawyer. and so he was always pointing out buildings and, you know, planning. He would talk about DC and what was happening architecturally and planning wise. So I think I just developed a sensibility. So I started as a music major.

Rachel Flynn 00:10:40  I'm a cellist and was going to be a symphony cellist, but I didn't really love it. I liked it. It was a great thing. It was a good discipline for me. And, I year alone, most of the time I'd practice six hours a day. When I was with people, I'd be in either the symphony or a quartet, and all the cool kids were architects. They were studying architecture. So I said, I want to go where the cool kids are. And I think I had had that in the back of my mind with my dad's background.

John Coe 00:11:10  See, you always had an architectural school. hum.

Rachel Flynn 00:11:13  Yeah. It has.

John Coe 00:11:14  It's interesting.

Rachel Flynn 00:11:15  it was great. It was a terrific program. And, you know, right here in the nation's capital, we would come down and our assignments would be to come down and look at the pension building. I'm sure you've seen that. That was shocking when we walked in. And just a remarkable building and, you know, various churches and what have you.

Rachel Flynn 00:11:33  So it was a great.

John Coe 00:11:35  Hotel now isn't it? Isn't the pension building.

Rachel Flynn 00:11:38  Or, it's the design, center design museum.

John Coe 00:11:41  Oh, the design museum. Okay, cool.

Rachel Flynn 00:11:44  I know we're building museum, I guess. Yeah. Oh, the building museum.

John Coe 00:11:48  All right. Sure. Okay. Got it. That's a gorgeous.

Rachel Flynn 00:11:51  Building. It is? Yeah, so, so rare.

John Coe 00:11:54  So then you went into architecture? I did talk about that trajectory.

Rachel Flynn 00:11:59  Yeah. So, at that time, they had a four year program. Now for architects, it's either 5 or 6 if you get a masters. But it was a four year program. And then I also became interested in on the construction side of it. and they had a one year master's program and a professor said, you know, if you stay one more year, you can get a master's, too. And I said, all right. So I stayed one more year and I got a master of science and engineering with a focus on construction management.

Rachel Flynn 00:12:30  Then, after I graduated, I actually moved to Paris because I always wanted to live in Paris. And I thought, if I don't do this now. So I went for the summer and he was actually an architect. She taught English and, I lived with a French family. When I say he and she. And then they had two little kids. And so I was, you know, you're, you're French au pair and, or American au pair in France. And my mom and dad came to visit that summer, and my mom said, oh, honey, you should stay, stay for the whole year. This is remarkable. They had a great apartment. And I said, oh, I, you know, I need to get back and work. And she goes, oh, you have the rest of your life to work. You should stay. It was really good advice and, loved it. Met a lot of people, developed a real sensibility for opera and art. And, it's just different, folks, the.

John Coe 00:13:22  Architecture of.

Rachel Flynn 00:13:23  Paris. And that too. Oh, it's it's just the greatest city. It really is. And, it was right at my doorstep. So I went there, and then I came back, and then I started working as an architect in New York City and in New York, I we would go a lot to visit because my mom had, you know, grown up there. She grew up on the Upper West Side and Morningside Heights, which was a big Irish neighborhood. So we were used to it. And, I, I thought, I want to be where the action is. And everybody said, oh, it's so expensive. And, you know, like what we're hearing now. And so with New York, either you live in a shoe box or you have four roommates. And so I did a little of both, but I wanted to be in New York. You don't need a car, which is nice. so I, I ended up with a firm called Cannon Design, which is now a national firm.

Rachel Flynn 00:14:17  They actually started outside of Buffalo. Two brothers, the cannon brothers, and then bought Wernick. If you remember Wernick, he, I believe he did the building behind the Renwick and, was actually a muckety muck and with the Kennedys and others. And so they bought that, company and one office was New York and another was Boston, and I was working on a project in Boston, so and my sister was living there. So I decided to transfer to that office. And we did a lot of work for Boston University. They were expanding, quite a bit at the time. So I went, went there and was probably in Boston about five years. And then a, cannon also focuses on health care, and they were doing a hospital outside of Toronto, and I had the flexibility to be able to move. So I moved to Toronto for a year. And, Toronto is a combination of New York run by the Swiss. It's how they describe it. So that's interesting.

John Coe 00:15:19  I never heard that description before.

Rachel Flynn 00:15:21  it's so clean and safe and, yeah, it Canada has a different vibe. I couldn't always put my finger on it, but it it's a different place. and then I also had a brief stint in Tel Aviv. cannon was doing the children's hospital outside of Tel Aviv and Pata Tikva. So I went to Israel during, it was during the war when Kuwait and Iraq and no one would go. And I said, there's no safer place than Israel, I mean, the IDF. Wow. So I went and it was a fabulous experience. I got to go during construction. So I helped them with the construction administration side, and I did that also while I was in Boston. And, that was one area where women just weren't getting involved. And one of the partners was very open to it and said, yeah, sure. And I did a great job, and I really wanted to see how buildings were getting built. You know, we did drawings. We were out in the design, we were managing the design, but I wanted to actually be out there and see it come together then? then my parents died.

Rachel Flynn 00:16:32  So I moved back to DC and just to be closer to my brothers and, worked in the office here in an office in Georgetown on a variety of projects. And about that time I thought, I don't know if I want to do one building at a time. I want a more interest in the big picture on how cities develop. Like, why are you even putting this building here? I should go over there.

John Coe 00:16:58  I want to get into why you made you pivoted to the public sector, you know, through your education going to you went on to Harvard at that point. I mean, a lot of people that are in architecture, as long as you were saying, oh my gosh, I look at my clients and say that I want to do that. You know, I want to be a developer. I want to do that. Why why didn't you have that urge as opposed to going on the other side to the public sector, just out of curiosity?

Rachel Flynn 00:17:25  Well, actually, that was on my mind.

Rachel Flynn 00:17:27  Like, should I be a developer? should I go into public service where we're building cities and directing developers really what we want? so I didn't really know. I went, to the Kennedy School, and my focus was urban development, housing and transportation. And it was great. I mean, it really lives up to its reputation. The professors were remarkable. The case studies, what we, what we learned, like on leadership in particular. I remember taking two classes on that, and it was very eye opening about what what really is leadership. So then when I got out, I worked for the Mayor's Institute on City Design, which was founded by Joe Riley, who became a real mentor of mine eventually. And he was taking a class at UVA or, I guess, a seminar and, about architecture, urban design. and it was really eye opening for him. And he said public officials need to know this because they are the chief architects for their cities and they know very little about design.

Rachel Flynn 00:18:35  So he started this program, at UVA and then it eventually went to Harvard. Now it's back, now it's here in DC. And then they started a Governors Institute of of City Design. And, it really helps them see their influence, what they need to be paying attention to. And Riley, who is the longest running mayor in America, 40 years, really transformed Charleston. It was remarkable. So when I heard him speak, I thought, that now that would be a great field to go into. And at Harvard, they always had all these great speakers come. And I was sitting in the audience once talking to a classmate and said, what are you going to do when you're done? He goes, well, people say, I should be a city manager. And I said, what's that? And so he told me about it and I said, oh, that's what I want to do. So because that's what Riley was talking about, short of running for office, which I wasn't interested in, I thought, oh, you can really run the whole city.

Rachel Flynn 00:19:38  Okay, so this little city in Virginia, because I was thinking of going back south called Lynchburg, Virginia. Terrible name, but actually named after a Quaker, the John Lynch, who started the ferry service across the James River, founded it in the 1700s. And I really liked the city manager. He was very thoughtful, real strategic thinker. and he really wanted me. I mean, he really worked to get me there because I was also interviewing for a position in Chicago with a housing developer nonprofit and in New York, for a transportation agency. And then a mentor of mine, said, you want to have your own franchise go to a small city so you can have more influence?

John Coe 00:20:25  So were you the director of planning there or what is that your role? Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 00:20:28  Community development. So planning and building.

John Coe 00:20:31  Right, right. So that's not as much administration as actually physical, you know, design and planning. Right. Or was it more administration.

Rachel Flynn 00:20:39  No. No. Yeah. Getting in the.

John Coe 00:20:41  Weeds. So that takes your architectural background into it basically. Yep. Yeah. So now you've got the planning part of it. Right.

Rachel Flynn 00:20:51  And then the building because I had done construction administration. So that was interesting. Yeah. Bringing that together.

John Coe 00:20:56  But again it doesn't quite answer my question about why you didn't want to be a developer. So I'm just I'm I'm really trying to understand you know, it just that led you I mean, it was just the the Kennedy School said, you know, I really want to do this. I don't necessarily want to do my own deals kind of thing. That wasn't really something I wanted to do. Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 00:21:15  Okay. Developing that love of public service. Got it. You know, I wasn't interested in getting rich. Kind of nice. But, you know, that wasn't the goal, right? And I really wanted to be in the the public arena where I felt, you know, hearing Riley and many others at the Kennedy School, I could have the greatest influence short of being the owner of a development or a building.

John Coe 00:21:38  Did just out of curiosity, did risk come into into play there? Did you say, you know, this is a little safer to do this, potentially working for a government? Or, you know, maybe I'll wait to do something more risky with my life, I don't know.

Rachel Flynn 00:21:54  I think the risk was in my friends that, at school said, where are you going? And, you know, it was like going from Boston to Lynchburg. Yeah, that's a change. And so the risk was, have I really made a mistake going to this? It's not so small a city. It was 75,000 at the time, but still small ish. And I said, well, if I don't like it, I could leave. I mean, I was in my 30s and you know, I flexibility. And I said, you know, if I don't like it I may go to a bigger place or go back to the private sector, become an architect or a developer. but it was it was perfect for me.

Rachel Flynn 00:22:30  And they were so ready. And I was so ready. I had all this knowledge, you know, that I had gained. And Lynchburg, I mean, the suburbs were doing pretty well, but the downtown had really suffered, and it was just classic what had happened in America, right where we left the downtowns. We couldn't see the value anymore. And clearly the car had the biggest influence on that. But it still had really good bones. And Lynchburg was the second wealthiest, city per capita in America. And like 1890 something because of tobacco and the wealthiest was New Bedford because of the whaling industry?

John Coe 00:23:09  Well, it just it seems to me that the late 1900s in Virginia were reconstruction to some extent. To some extent. Yep. and Virginia had the battlefields. I mean, Lynchburg is right near Appomattox. So, you.

Rachel Flynn 00:23:24  Know, it's like a half hour away. Yeah. They never really had a battle there. There was something around the edges. But yeah. Yeah. So fortunately, unlike Richmond, which really destroyed got right Lynchburg remained intact.

Rachel Flynn 00:23:37  And you, you could see it. I mean, these buildings were remarkable. And they had, called the City of Seven Hills. So they had historic districts on these hills. And I thought, God, I mean, they could do so much here. So I called Mayor Riley, and I said, would you come and speak? And I had heard he has his famous slideshow. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but if your listeners are interested, just Google Joe Riley, you know, slideshow and it will come up. But he talks about the value of cities and how they're precious heirlooms that we pass on to future generations. And you think about Charleston and the the great bones there? Yeah. Similar to. And they had a waterfront. We had a waterfront. Ours is a river. Theirs was also river. A little different, but, so he came and, people say it was the day Lynchburg changed that. People really got it. They gave him a standing ovation.

Rachel Flynn 00:24:34  People were teary eyed. If you've never seen it, it's a very compelling story.

John Coe 00:24:38  And attached to the show notes.

Rachel Flynn 00:24:40  Yeah, totally. He tells one really good story about this man named Clarence, who was, I think, mentally mentally challenged. And when they were designing the waterfront, Sasaki was the firm. And, there was a pier that had, stones that were already there. And he said, well, don't we need a fence? And they said, no, no, people are going to go to the edge and just sit there. And he said, oh, all right. And so he was out jogging one morning and he sees Clarence out there right where they said somebody would sit and he didn't want to disturb him. And later he saw him at an event, said, Clarence, I saw you sitting on the, at the riverfront. He goes, I go there every day. And I watched the boats go by, and then he turns to the audience, says, this is why we build cities for the clearances of the world.

Rachel Flynn 00:25:29  This is the only river he's ever going to know. He deserves the best riverfront park.

John Coe 00:25:33  This is in Charleston? Yep. Yeah. So probably the Ashley River.

Rachel Flynn 00:25:37  Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And so, I took that message to the people, and I also work to get the right people there who have influence and wealth, and they really got it. And I said, we brought in Sasaki, I hired them to write, and we did a whole downtown plan and focused on the riverfront as well. And I said, I want a project that we will implement immediately because some people have been working on this for years. They said, oh, another plan. I said, no, we're really we're really going to get it right. And so we designed Ninth Street, which goes from the riverfront up the hill. It's a remarkable view to the historic courthouse. I said, that's really our main street. Even though we had a perpendicular main street, and I wanted to start it immediately.

Rachel Flynn 00:26:22  So while we were doing the plan, they were doing the design and construction documents for ninth Street, and we started right away and we gave money to open the Children's Museum. And because we needed these catalysts, the Children's Museum, the Academy of Music, the Riverfront Artists Lofts, so people really start to see it, see it happen. And then when I left, they got it and they kept going.

John Coe 00:26:45  I think of Lynchburg is a two college town, so you've got liberty and you have, Lynchburg College, which is now maybe Lynchburg University.

Rachel Flynn 00:26:54  Right. And Randolph College.

John Coe 00:26:56  Oh.

Rachel Flynn 00:26:56  Is Randolph-Macon there. Well, they changed the name because it's co-ed. So it used to be a Randolph-Macon Women's College. Right. And there's a Randolph-Macon, as you know, and Ash Mashburn is it. And they so they couldn't go with Randolph-Macon. So it's Randolph College. It might even be a university as well, I don't know, but three.

John Coe 00:27:15  Yeah, I didn't realize that. Wow.

Rachel Flynn 00:27:17  And then the community college so did that.

John Coe 00:27:19  Was that kind of the the dynamics of the city or was there other dynamics of the city other than those colleges per se?

Rachel Flynn 00:27:25  Well, there were also major, companies there like GE. So a lot of people from the north came down like engineers. And what, so it wasn't just local people there. Yeah. And, there's a, it's escaping my mind right now, but a, a big French company that does nuclear business with an A, and I'll think of it in a minute. So a lot of outsiders came in to work there. So we had that. It was a pretty solid economy. and then Liberty, you know, the Reverend Jerry Falwell, as you know, started that in an old historic warehouse and, began preaching and then actually use several of the old buildings downtown for dorms for the Academy of Music was an auditorium he used. And I know there are a lot of views on Jerry Falwell and but he worked extremely hard. He was very devoted to Christianity, his version of Christianity, and really built that university from nothing to 10,000 students.

Rachel Flynn 00:28:31  and that that did have an influence. But he and I actually used to get into it. It was kind of fun. He called me a commie from the pulpit because I was trying to change the sign ordinance. We had these enormous signs, you know, 25 and up, and I wanted to really beautify our major corridors and gateways. And so he and some others who were probably members of his church, said that I was anti-business. So he would cite, you know, name me from the pulpit and say, if you want a one way ticket to Beijing or Moscow or Havana. How are you? And it was really funny and people would send me recordings. It was really fun. And he, he was supposed to build a highway ramp. This is a bit detailed, but during the there was a downfall because of Jimmy Swaggart, James Baker and not James Jim Jim Baker. So there who had gotten into trouble and it brought down the televangelist, the other televangelists, including Falwell. So there was a time when it went into receivership, and there were business people in Lynchburg who had to take over, eventually went back to Falwell.

Rachel Flynn 00:29:47  But during that time, he, he had built this huge arena. And they said, if you're going to expand any more, you've got to build this highway ramp. Because he was basically on a peninsula with a railroad on one side and a highway on the other. And he said, okay. And then he built a dorm because they were starting to grow again. And he moved everyone in without a Co certificate of occupancy. And we found out and we had to call him and tell him, you can't, you can't be moving people into a building without a Co. And then he said, well, would you like me to tell those, those young people that they don't have a home? I mean, that was good. How we went about it and we said, yeah, actually, because we don't know if it's safe. So we quickly got it inspected. He passed and we got him to sign a contract that he would build this highway ramp, which he didn't want to do. Wow.

Rachel Flynn 00:30:40  And so he gave me grief for that and went on and on. I think it was just intimidation. I was bringing new thinking. And, he thought it was the heavy hand of the government, but it was it was regulations we had. It was deal, you know, promises we had. So that was kind of fun. And then. Excuse me, Lynchburg University was a very different place. You know, your classic, small city university and great professors. The president was lovely, man. And, and then same with, Randolph-Macon Women's College. So it was a nice blend. I did teach one course there, when one of the professors went on sabbatical. So I taught there. And then I was actually on the board of Sweet Briar College. So Sweet Briar is up the road ten miles. That's in Amherst County. But I was on that board for about 8 or 9 years, and, and that was great. I enjoyed watching it. And I think I'm kind of bad luck for boards because I was also on the Holy Names, University Board in Oakland, California.

Rachel Flynn 00:31:43  You may remember Sweet Briar was about to close, went under. Yeah, they announced it in March that that was it. And, a group of alums got together and said, no, no, no, no, and challenge the original agreement to the college and got the attorney general involved and they saved it. the reason they decided to close, they just couldn't get enough students there with, you know, single gender, right? college. And it was so remote and it just wasn't of interest.

John Coe 00:32:14  One of my earlier guests was a Sweet Briar graduate. She was also involved in that process, in fact, pretty active in the. That's Wendy White of, Galston Storrs law firm. Oh, okay. Yeah. She's a.

Rachel Flynn 00:32:28  Yeah. They really came.

John Coe 00:32:29  Through. Yeah. I think she put some money into it. Excellent.

Rachel Flynn 00:32:33  Well, that was the key.

John Coe 00:32:34  Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 00:32:34  If they could get more money. Right. But it couldn't quite get to 700 students. And that was sort of the magic number.

Rachel Flynn 00:32:40  And yeah, it, it was shocking. And then I know we'll get to Oakland later. But decade later when I was on the Holy Names board, they decided to close and I thought, I better not join anymore.

John Coe 00:32:53  We're like.

Rachel Flynn 00:32:54  I am a curse and influence.

John Coe 00:32:56  So how long did you stay in Lynchburg?

Rachel Flynn 00:32:58  I was there eight years.

John Coe 00:32:59  Eight years? Okay. And then what implored you to want to go to Richmond after that?

Rachel Flynn 00:33:05  So I was ready for that next size city, and I, they had just elected Doug Wilder as their mayor. And I was interested in a strong mayor form a government, because that's what Joe Riley was. And I thought, if you can have a strong mayor running things rather than one, one person of seven, it would be a different dynamic. And he, he got elected, I believe, in oh five. and I ended up there in oh six. So I came same role, director of planning and building community development and, similar kinds of things.

Rachel Flynn 00:33:43  You know, I looked there downtown was already starting to turn around. You know, you got the capital there. You have VCU, which at that time was, I think, the largest, university in Virginia. it's like 30,000 students right there in the core of of the downtown and the fan. And, but one of my main focus is, was the riverfront. because it's interesting, you know, I was on the James River and Lynchburg, and you come down river, and I was on the James River again. but this was at the falls. which is interesting. It's why Richmond is there, because when the explorers were coming up rivers, they'd hit the falls. And that was as far as they could go. And there's a fault line on the East Coast. So you've got the James where you have the, the falls and then, the Rappahannock and then the Potomac, where you hit Georgetown and the Great Falls. And that's how Georgetown got developed. So it's really interesting how why cities end up where they are.

Rachel Flynn 00:34:43  But that was as far inland they could go by boat. So Byrd, who was the founder, went up. There was a high point today it's called Churchill and Libby Park and went up there and he looked and he said, My God, this looks like Richmond. Richmond on Thames. So that's how it got its name. And you look at the two photos and it's remarkable.

John Coe 00:35:02  Isn't that something.

Rachel Flynn 00:35:03  And it's a.

John Coe 00:35:03  Sweeping.

Rachel Flynn 00:35:04  View. Yeah. And so this developer wanted to put this giant luxury apartment building right in the middle of the view. And I really had concerns about this. I said, you're going to really do harm to the fountain. You know, the reason we're we got the name and all those people who go up there for the view, and they were starting to just block the riverfront. You had money and you own that land. And I thought about Mayor Riley and what he had said. And this is for all the people, right. And they deserve the best riverfront.

Rachel Flynn 00:35:40  So we we did a new downtown plan, incorporated what VCU was doing, what, the state was doing and, really thought about transportation and how to make the streets, humanize them a little more, not just for through traffic, which was happened. That's why one way streets came to American cities is to get people in fast and out fast. And we're like, no, we don't want the fastness. We want people to stay here. You know, these are living, breathing streets. So we worked on all that, got a lot of participation and buy in. And then we hired a firm just to focus on the riverfront itself. And, at that time, that's when I was leaving. I was in Richmond for five years, but they ended up incorporating it. And about two years ago, someone called me and said, hey, Rachel, they finally bought that land where that luxury building was going to go because I told the mayor, I said, just buy the land from them. We need that.

Rachel Flynn 00:36:37  And Mayo Island, if you know Mayo Island right in the middle of the river. And they bought that too. And, I almost cried. I said, well, that was the vision. And, you know, they finally did it, and now they have, they're building up the riverfront park, and people go there all, all the time. Yeah. It's remarkable. So, you know, and again, that's why we do this, right? It's it's so heartwarming. We also did a what we call a form based code. So rather than zoning just being focused on uses, it was if you get the form right and the design right and follow the guidelines, you could just build by right. You don't have to go through rezoning.

John Coe 00:37:14  How did you learn about form based code?

Rachel Flynn 00:37:17  through Victor Dover. So there's a firm called Dover Coal. They're out of the Miami area, and they were part of that. Plato's iceberg, and the Miami architecture school. Yeah. So they went down there.

Rachel Flynn 00:37:30  They were actually, Virginia Tech guys who ended up going down there. And it's part of the Congress for New Urbanism. CNU right. And so I just started to follow it, and I actually hired Victor to come to Lynchburg. We were doing the Midtown plan to there was a they were going to basically create this, you know, high speed, five lane road all through Lynchburg, through historic neighborhoods. And we didn't need it. We just didn't need it. And then we found out, well, they they want a more direct way to the hospital off the freeway. It's like, okay, we can do that. Let's look at that route, but do not destroy these neighborhoods. And and that plan ended up saving those neighborhoods and getting the direct route to the hospital and saving a lot of money. It was just it was a waste of money. And it was sort of like, okay, Lynchburg turn. Here's your money. Like, but then, no, that's that's not the way to do it.

Rachel Flynn 00:38:22  What do you really need and where should it go and how should you spend these precious dollars? So long story short, I hired Victor for that. And then I brought him to do the downtown plan in Richmond. And he really, taught me about the importance of place and design and how it affects people's lives and just the feel of the city. So we did this for Jackson Ward, the historic black neighborhood in Richmond, Manchester.

John Coe 00:38:50  Is that the south side of the river?

Rachel Flynn 00:38:52  No. Manchester is. Well, Manchester is. Yeah. So Jackson Ward is north, just north of the capital. Right. It got divided because of a highway. That's where 95 goes through. And now that's part of Pete Buttigieg is secretary of Transportation's vision is to repair these neighborhoods. And so you've seen them like in Dallas and other cities where they're starting to build over these highways and reconnect neighborhoods. They're working on one in Austin, and they were almost all through African American communities. So, Jackson Ward is classic.

John Coe 00:39:26  Another classic one is the Cross Bronx Expressway. Oh my.

Rachel Flynn 00:39:29  Goodness. Yes.

John Coe 00:39:30  That's the closest one.

Rachel Flynn 00:39:31  Totally forever changed. And that's kind of how the South Bronx came to be.

John Coe 00:39:35  I since you lived in New York, I assume you've read, The Power Broker?

Rachel Flynn 00:39:40  Yes. Yeah, yeah, quite a story.

John Coe 00:39:42  It is quite a story.

Rachel Flynn 00:39:44  Yeah. People would call me the Jane Jacobs of the cities. Right. I'll take it. I'll take it. So those were the things we focused on, and then developers just started building. When I go back to Richmond, I'm like, oh, like, all these were parking lots were and just vacant weeded lots. All this housing now it's just great. Again, it's why we do this work.

John Coe 00:40:06  And so you felt accomplished both in Lynchburg and Richmond with what you succeeded.

Rachel Flynn 00:40:12  It did.

John Coe 00:40:12  Yeah. So then you decided to go to the Middle East. So why did you do that and talk about that experience?

Rachel Flynn 00:40:22  Well, a new mayor came to Richmond, and, the focus for him wasn't as much on urban planning and development.

Rachel Flynn 00:40:31  He wasn't against it, but it just wasn't his focus. And I was I didn't feel as aligned. And you really have to be aligned with the politicians you work for. And so I actually saw an ad, and I was reading one of the APA American Planning Association's newsletters, and they have the one ads, remember the want ads? Do they still happen? What do they call that now, John? I have. Anyway, they're like, come, do this stint in, Abu Dhabi for zoning reform. It didn't say form based code, but it was basically that kind of thing. And I thought, oh, that would be fun. And so I interviewed the woman who worked there, and it was an American firm called Otak from Oregon, but they had opened a middle East office because the founder was from originally from Iraq. And so he was familiar with the Middle East. He knew that Abu Dhabi and Dubai were really growing. So I thought, well, that would be really interesting.

Rachel Flynn 00:41:32  And then the government decided not to do the project. But she remembered me and then followed up and said, hey, I'm leaving, but would you like to take my role, as overseeing planning for this office. And I said, okay, yeah. I'll go. So.

John Coe 00:41:49  I mean. I know that's a big change in lifestyle. I know, and living conditions and everything. Right?

Rachel Flynn 00:41:58  Yeah, I'm still young. I was, I got married, actually, at this point. Met my husband in Lynchburg. He is an attorney, and he was working there. He ended up going to Charlottesville. He was the public defender of Lynchburg. They asked him then to open the, new office for the public defender in Charlottesville. And, he has three kids from a prior marriage. And as their stepmother, I take full credit for their good looks and intelligence and no responsibility for their bad behavior. So stepmothers really, they kind of get it. All right. anyway, so he had his family.

Rachel Flynn 00:42:33  I didn't want kids. And he knew who we married, that I was, you know, going to go where I needed to go. And he's well, I married him. He's a great person who knows who he is. He does his thing, I do mine, and we figure out a way to get together. And he goes, go. And you know, he knew. I was frustrated at the end in Richmond. He said, it's a great opportunity.

John Coe 00:42:54  So he didn't go with you.

Rachel Flynn 00:42:55  He would come visit. He loved it because he loves to travel. So he would come visit and it was before teleworking. But you kind of use that a little bit. and I don't know if you. Have you been to.

John Coe 00:43:08  I've never been to the Middle East.

Rachel Flynn 00:43:09  Okay. It, when they say it's hot and it's not a dry heat like Arizona, it is humid and hot. So it's like 120 degrees. You don't go outside in the summer, basically, unless it's night and the sun has gone down.

John Coe 00:43:24  And so it's Phoenix with humidity in the summertime. What you're saying.

Rachel Flynn 00:43:27  Yeah, I mean it was remarkable. And Jim's my husband is a real walker. And so he would go out. So half the year it's great. And the other half not so great. And he would go out. I mean, you could die. It was. You would just look for shade wherever you could find it. Like if you had to go down the street for something, you're like, well, what time of day is it? Is there any shade? I mean, could make the difference between life and death and everything got you, got delivered to you, you know, and you take a taxi, like 2 or 3 blocks, but but once you got used to it, you know, it was just.

John Coe 00:43:59  So what did you do while you were there?

Rachel Flynn 00:44:00  So we worked on, various projects for the Abu Dhabi Municipality Admm. And one was, called Moruya, Linear Park. So it was a major, avenue through Abu Dhabi, kind of like, a Wisconsin Avenue or Connecticut Ave, but it was very vehicle oriented.

Rachel Flynn 00:44:23  So the UAE is an interesting story. They, they found out they had oil in the 50s, 60s and they were what was called a British protectorate. And so, it was really there was just nothing there. And the Brits just wanted to have some kind of stronghold so someone else couldn't control it. But it was a trading triangle with you had Iran, Dubai and India and that was a trading triangle. So Dubai already had a port. It wasn't huge, but they had one Abu Dhabi on the other hand, it was nothing like the island of Abu Dhabi within the emirate of Abu Dhabi. So emirates are like, states. So it's United Arab Emirates. Abu Dhabi is like the size of Manhattan. And they I think maybe a thousand people lived on the island in the 50s and 60s. Today there are 1.5 million, I think. So just like that. The country was formed in 71. So what happened was they found out they had oil and they a lot of geology geologists has been studying it.

Rachel Flynn 00:45:29  Saudi was very well established. That's where the Americans were, American oil and the Brits wanted a piece of that pie. And so they went to the Sheik of Abu Dhabi. He hated the British. He was like, you didn't do anything for us. You didn't build us roads into anything, and he wouldn't talk to them. And so they went to his brother Sheikh Zayed and said, hey, would you talk to your brother? Maybe you could become sheikh and we'll work with you. So he goes to his brother and he goes, hey, they'll pay for you to go live some lovely life somewhere in the world and I'll become sheikh. He goes, great, fine. He leaves. So Sheikh Zayed, he's like the George Washington of the UAE. Remarkable man, very savvy, a very good man. He created that country with human rights. And it's not a democracy, but it's a whole lot better than most.

John Coe 00:46:18  What's the relationship between Abu Dhabi and Dubai?

Rachel Flynn 00:46:21  Dubai is one of the Emirates.

Rachel Flynn 00:46:23  So but Abu Dhabi is where the oil is. But Dubai, there was already some money there because of the port. So he went to that sheikh and said, why don't you be vice president and I'll be president, and you can get X, Y, and Z. We're going to make money off of oil. You'll benefit from that. But you become the financial real estate capital. Will will be the capital. Like we're the DC. You'd be the New York or Las Vegas, whatever you want to call it. And and it's a big, big emirate, but that's where all the oil is. So then they went to the other sheikhs and they're like, hey, we got to come together. You know, we don't know how to get this oil out of the ground. We got to work with the Brits and we need to come together. So there were seven of them, plus Qatar and Kuwait. And they were. It was going to be nine emirates. Iran intervenes because Qatar had natural gas, but Dhabi has the oil.

Rachel Flynn 00:47:18  Right. And Bahrain was the financial capital where it was where the Saudis would go to play and put their money. And Iran says, you're going to have oil, natural gas and finance. You're going to be too powerful. So they became their own countries and they're just dots on I mean, they're really teeny. So then they form the country and they hire actually a Japanese man to design Abu Dhabi. It's a really interesting grid. It's like one I've never seen. And that's how they grew. But pick one of the worst times in world history to to design a city. It was all about the car. You know, they didn't have, like, we're talking about Lynchburg and Richmond. That was historic, walkable, mixed use. They they didn't have it. But now. So back to your question. What was I doing there? We were helping them make that transition. So Maurer was going to become this linear park. I still don't think they built the project, but we worked on that.

Rachel Flynn 00:48:16  The urban street design manual to humanize their streets. Also, how can you make it walkable in the middle of summer? You know, shade shade structures are a big deal. They're looking at metro. Dubai already has Metro that were looking at that. And then interestingly, one of our clients was the Abu Dhabi National oil company, Adnoc, and they would build these little cities out in the middle of nowhere where the oil was. But they had to get the engineers there and others there. And so they had to make these really nice little cities out of nothing. So we helped design those. And then, there were other smaller projects like that. And, and it was great since it.

John Coe 00:48:55  Was British then everyone spoke English. So you didn't have. Yes. Yes and Arabic. Yeah. Or anything.

Rachel Flynn 00:49:00  Like that. Only 15% of the population is Emirati. The rest is all expats. And a friend of mine there said you're going to it's going to be like being back in college because we all just hung.

Rachel Flynn 00:49:11  All the Americans just hung out together and a lot, you know, their spouses were somewhere else. And it was very true. I it might be a little bit like working for the State Department and just met people from all over the country, you know, India, England.

John Coe 00:49:26  Was Islam the state religion similar to what it is? It is. Yeah, yeah. So they are very strict about alcohol use and things like that, right? Yes.

Rachel Flynn 00:49:35  So you have to get a licence to drink if you want to have it in your home. And there are stores but they're unmarked and you have to know where they are and nobody got a license. But anyway, so you'd go in and they'd give you a black bag and we call it the bag of Shame and you walk out. Everybody knew you'd been at the liquor store. but you could drink at, hotels, but hotels had like 20 restaurants, like, sprawling. And you go, this restaurant is affiliated with the hotel. But that was how they got around it.

Rachel Flynn 00:50:08  And Emiratis would go to that was that was the interesting part. And it's just it's just how it is in life. But I didn't want to stay forever. So I, I gave it a year and it's like I, you know, I am married and, you know, it would be nice to get back. I wanted to experience it, loved it a great time.

John Coe 00:50:25  It's just a year. Yeah. So then what brought you back to the States then.

Rachel Flynn 00:50:30  So then I wanted to get back into the kind of work I had been doing. And the city of Oakland was advertising for a community development director, and I'd always wanted to live in California. And at this point, my husband's a little older than me. He was, looking to retire. And I said, well, I want to go to California. He goes, great. And so he said, I'll finish up here. And then, you know, come to California. And that's that's pretty much what happened. and he, he would probably come half the year.

Rachel Flynn 00:51:02  And then, same thing with the other cities. I really focused on the downtown, but Oakland just wasn't, you know, it didn't have that drive to really build that more housing. So when I came, there were 500 units under construction. When I left, there were 5000. I said, we need to open up for business. You guys. Let's process it. We need this housing. If we're going, downtown's going to be successful. You got to have residential and a lot of it that will bring then the retail. And then we had we had a good amount of office like Clorox capitals, their our headquarters rather Kaiser Permanente, things like that. And like Richmond and and Lynchburg, it had good bones, like, you hear about the Berkeley Hills where there's the Oakland Hills as well, and they're just as beautiful. And there's Lake Merritt, which is a very prominent place right in the heart. It's actually shaped like a heart. So it's kind of interesting. and a friend of mine who was the developer, he said, you're the most entrepreneurial thinking, planning director I've ever met.

Rachel Flynn 00:52:06  You really combine, public service with, business mind, and I just had to figure out a few build quality. How can we just let you go and build.

John Coe 00:52:18  Like I said when I Responded to when we first spoke. I said, and I'll say this now. We don't know each other as well, but I just feel based on what our conversation was, that you're a breath of fresh air in the public sector and, you know, knowing what you do know, after so many years in architecture, you understand what the private sector needs and wants, which is important. Yes, to be able to bridge that, you know, what the public need is and what the private incentives are, you know, and in California, that's probably a shock to people because, you know, most developers there are used to pretty a lot of bureaucracy, challenging development, you know, you know, nothing like Virginia, you know, well.

Rachel Flynn 00:53:06  Sequa is the real challenge in California, the California Environmental Quality Act, Ceqa, that actually was signed by Ronald Reagan after the Santa Barbara oil spill.

Rachel Flynn 00:53:17  And people were very concerned about the environment then to lose their precious, you know, of course, natural features. So the bill, the law was well-meaning, but it just took on a life of its own. And to this day, they're still trying to figure out how to undo this thing, because you can be sued over anything. Like you don't have enough affordable housing you didn't save, you know, the three legged frog. You didn't. You know the trees that you know you need to take down so they can be, they can sue you over anything. And it really ties up project. So then developers end up saying, well, what do you want? I'll just give it to you. You want labor? rights. You know, union.

John Coe 00:54:00  When you say they can sue. Are you talking about private? You know, like, you know, the neighborhood organizations and conform and just anybody that's interesting.

Rachel Flynn 00:54:09  I know it is. But I always say, when you were talking about that public private thing, what is the public sector need to do to help the private sector succeed? So we help with the visioning.

Rachel Flynn 00:54:23  You know, we are responsible for the comprehensive plans and and all that. And so working with the community, what do you want this place to be? What are your greatest assets? What do you need to work on? What are the natural features. You know, what's your history and what's the potential for growth. So you develop that vision and then it's the government who sets the rules. So the zoning ordinances, the building codes, the historic preservation, ordinances, whatnot, create those, the rules and regs so people know what they have to do. Often developers say, just tell me what the rules are, I'll do them. But I gotta keep going. So setting those and making them real clear, like form based code. And then we have certain powers the private sector doesn't have. So we can borrow money, we can issue bonds, tiffs. Tax increment financing is a way. That's how the mosaic was built in Fairfax because you borrow on future value. And so we we have these powers that that others we can tax and use that money.

John Coe 00:55:24  I did the first tiff in Washington DC. You did? Yes. The Mandarin Hotel, which is now the Salamander Hotel. Oh, really? Yes.

Rachel Flynn 00:55:31  Oh, congratulations. Yeah, that was a powerful tool.

John Coe 00:55:34  98. Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Flynn 00:55:37  Well, you were ahead of your time.

John Coe 00:55:38  Well, it was, you know, Anthony Williams was mayor at that time, and they needed economic development. And the other big project that was simultaneous with us was Gallery Place, just, you know, on sixth Street, you know, Anchorage and Western will say they were first, but we were actually the first one that was approved, of the tiffs. They had a bigger one than we did. Yeah. A luxury hotel in that location at the time was a big risk. Now, of course, with the wharf being there and all that, it's, you know.

Rachel Flynn 00:56:11  You were a pioneer.

John Coe 00:56:12  Fitting, fitting location for that. Now, doesn't that.

Rachel Flynn 00:56:15  Make you feel good that you were part of that? It is.

John Coe 00:56:17  Fun. Yeah, I was a financier, so I worked with the developers and getting all that. But the structuring of financing the Tiff was a big part of it. Obviously, it's critical we couldn't have gotten the project done without it.

Rachel Flynn 00:56:29  Interesting. Yeah. So I when I learned about that, I said, wow, that's a remarkable tool. And I heard about it. There's a really good film. People like seeing films on development called, back from the brink and the AIA Foundation made it, and it's three cities. Sassoon, California. That was this little teeny town in the very North Bay that had really had hit the doldrums. And then, Chattanooga, Tennessee, that had been prosperous at one time but was struggling, because their industry collapsed. And then, Portland, Oregon. So a successful place that was trying to manage growth. And they talk about these three sides like what each deals with. And Sassoon did a tiff and I saw this film in the mid 90s. It also influenced me to go into public service when I saw that film, and I thought a tiff like, why doesn't everybody do that? Because they said, how did they do it? They borrowed the money.

Rachel Flynn 00:57:26  I'm like, well, why doesn't everybody just borrow the money? And then I started to study. Well, what does this really mean? Yeah, it was interesting. So back to Sequa for a second. So I had I had no idea, how what a big deal sequel was and learned a whole lot when I got there. But the other thing that happened because the downturn in oh eight, Oakland really suffered. I got there in 13. So they were starting to come out of it a little, but they still had some shell shock. But staff to their credit, had started. They call them specific plans in California. So rather than a master plan or an area plan, and they with that you get the sequa portion done. So once you get it through, it can take, you know, 2 or 3 years. But once you get it through and all the legal challenges and everything have occurred, the developers can build by. Right. So we got five done in Lake Merritt, West Oakland, which is a very interesting area, home of the Black Panthers.

Rachel Flynn 00:58:25  So a real different kind of place. the downtown. So anyway, we got those done. And that was partly why the, the developers could, could come in and build.

John Coe 00:58:36  Since you were in Oakland and I went to school and USF for graduate school, San Francisco across the bay. So I lived in in the city for two years and never I only went there for a couple of concerts and went over to hang out in Berkeley for a day or two. But, you know, just trying to understand the difference between the East Bay, Oakland and the city. There is a significant development difference. And, you know the history between the two cities. The. From what I remember, the military had a much stronger influence on the East Bay. Treasure Island and all these different.

Rachel Flynn 00:59:17  Alameda Island.

John Coe 00:59:18  Alameda and the Air force base there and all that. just, you know, I mean, we're talking about a DC audience here, but I'd be just kind of curious why how Oakland is different from San Francisco.

John Coe 00:59:32  There's a big difference between the two cities. So what's your impression of that?

Rachel Flynn 00:59:36  Yeah, there isn't. There isn't. I mean, they want the same things. San Francisco is just so remarkable because of its natural location and topography. And, I mean, there's just nothing like it. It's pretty amazing. They built a city there when you look at some of those hills. But that's what makes it so stunning. And everywhere you turn there's another view.

John Coe 00:59:57  And they compare it to Rome. Yeah, but I don't know if that's a good analogy or not, but close.

Rachel Flynn 01:00:03  Yeah, yeah. And it had, just such a strong history. But Oakland, that was the end of the line. If you remember the railroad when it came across America, that was that was the the western terminus. Yeah. And so it really made it because there.

John Coe 01:00:18  Were no bridges at that time. No.

Speaker 3 01:00:20  Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 01:00:20  So you you got off in Oakland, you took a boat over to San Francisco. So it had its own economy and its own own world and its own natural beauty there, the flatlands.

Rachel Flynn 01:00:31  And then you hit the Oakland hills. Unlike San Francisco, which is hills pretty much throughout. You come to some flat areas.

John Coe 01:00:39  But Marina District is about the only flat area. Yeah. In the in the city. Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 01:00:44  And and the mission when you come down to the Presidio.

John Coe 01:00:46  Is fairly well. It's it's rolling but it's it's flatter.

Rachel Flynn 01:00:50  Exactly. Yeah. So then the coastline did become the military area. There was a huge army base, which then through the Brac system was, given over and a developer turned it into a logistics. You know, I think Prologis came in and built a lot of the warehouses. It's probably built by now. So we were working on that. Then you had Alameda, which is a separate city, and it's quite a large island. And there was I think it was a Navy base there and same thing. They turned that over to the private sector. So all these areas that had been for the military were now opening up for private commerce and or for living and working.

John Coe 01:01:32  For Treasure Island had already converted. Right.

Rachel Flynn 01:01:33  Or was being not yet they were working on it, that that was a future. I know we'll get to that. That was a company I worked for that was, given that job to transform it. It's gone through a lot to, to make it happen. But, I do think the climate and the and it's sunnier in Oakland, which is really nice. Well, that's.

John Coe 01:01:54  True and it's warmer.

Rachel Flynn 01:01:56  And it's funny just, you know, they're so close. But the fog comes here and the fog doesn't go there.

John Coe 01:02:01  It's in the Bay area. Amazing. It's true. You know, you go up to Marin County and be 90 degrees. You go into the city. It'd be 60. I know, the same time.

Rachel Flynn 01:02:10  Remarkable. Yeah, yeah. I used to show a slide. You could see, San Francisco in the foreground and then Oakland beyond and above San Francisco. It says not sunny and then Oakland sunny. So, that was one of our features.

Rachel Flynn 01:02:26  it is changing with climate change, though. It's getting warmer. But, so it had its own thriving economy, a really beautiful downtown with streetcars and everything. And then it was hurt by that. also, Kaiser, you know, Kaiser Permanente. So Henry Kaiser made his fortune with steel and building, you know, massive projects and then decided I'm going to have my own health care. That's how, that form of health care came about. and he, so West Oakland was a big industrial area for shipbuilding and whatnot in World War two. It really thrived. Then when that industry collapsed, that created a lot of unemployment, poverty. A lot of African Americans had moved to California for that. So West Oakland became one of those challenged areas where a little bit of Rust Belt, you know, in Oakland. But, most of it was still doing well in.

John Coe 01:03:22  Richmond, California.

Rachel Flynn 01:03:23  Yeah. That's right. It's similar. Yeah. Where these huge hangars are. Yeah. And then, a big Latino population in the flatlands, we call it.

Rachel Flynn 01:03:32  So the Fruitvale area. And so one of the things I really like was the rich blend of people and, races and ethnicities that really added to the culture. Exactly. And, yeah. So Oakland is a great place, a tough, tough government because they're dealing with so much. There's it has a very rebellious side to it. Like when a thing would have like Trayvon Martin or something like, oh man, there's going to be there's going to be a riot tonight.

John Coe 01:04:03  It's where the Black Power movement started.

Rachel Flynn 01:04:05  That's right. Black panthers. Yeah. Huey Newton and. Right. Yeah, they, they started in West Oakland. Yeah. Yeah. It's a rich history.

John Coe 01:04:13  So you get did you feel accomplished in the city of Oakland or. Oh, yeah, you did okay. And then you decided to go to the private sector, which is interesting.

Rachel Flynn 01:04:23  So a developer I'd worked with, reached out one day and said, hey, would you like to come work for five Point Lennar? So Lennar, the big one of the biggest homebuilders in America, also had a multifamily, community building branch.

Rachel Flynn 01:04:42  And during the downturn, when they were trying to raise capital for the big communities, there were five of them. One was Treasure Island. they, the. financiers would say, well, are you a home builder or are you a community builder? And you said, well, we do both. It's like, well, one's long term, one short term. And they thought, well, why don't we break away? So Lennar I guess communities or whatever it was called, the time became five point and they focused on those five developments. And there were two in Southern California and three in Northern California. And they had just gotten the agreement to do the Concord Naval Weapons Station, site that is part of the Brac movement. Same with Treasure Island and also the shipyards. You may remember the shipyard. so they asked if I would oversee that. And I thought, well, you know, I always did have that developer bug and thought about it, and they're just handing it to me on a silver platter.

Rachel Flynn 01:05:48  And then my husband said, you know, you've always live where you work because you want to be part of that culture. Like in Lynchburg, I lived downtown. I was the only one who lived downtown. Me and the barbers, they knew when I was late for work. And now there are hundreds and hundreds. It's so great. Same and same with Richmond. I lived in Manchester, and then in Oakland. I lived downtown. So he said, you know, if you were part of the community, because that's really what you do and you build these great relationships, then, you know, it might be the thing for you. So I said, okay, it was a tough decision. I, you know, I liked Oakland. I didn't have any reason to leave. And but this was just a golden opportunity. So I worked on, the Concorde reuse project, as we called it. and we were in the, we had to do sequa, we had to do the specific plan for it and also the development agreement with the city.

Rachel Flynn 01:06:44  We didn't have one yet, and it was 12,000 housing units. It was 6,000,000ft² of commercial. It was a huge, sports Park. I think there were going to be six schools. It was massive and a beautiful piece of property, and Metro went right there. I mean, Bart, so you had an.

John Coe 01:07:01  Open canvas.

Rachel Flynn 01:07:02  Here? Oh yeah. It was remarkable. Remarkable. So, I learned a great deal. It was a steep learning curve to, you know, learn all the performers and this and that.

John Coe 01:07:13  You have to do the street layout and everything for this whole thing. Wow.

Rachel Flynn 01:07:16  Yeah. So we had master.

John Coe 01:07:17  Plan big time.

Rachel Flynn 01:07:18  Yeah. A lot of consultants, in every aspect. And then when I was there, almost two years, I got a, not a call, but a Google reached out to me, and I thought it was a joke. It was kind of a text message, like, would you like to be a Google executive? And I was like, what is this spam? And and I showed to my husband, I go, look at this.

Rachel Flynn 01:07:43  He goes, I think it's real. Oh, yes, I would like to be a Google executive. So ten interviews later, I became a Google executive and what was happening was Google was growing so fast in Silicon Valley that they had to build or buy 1,000,000ft² of office every year. They were adding 20,000 employees. They were growing that fast. Uhhuh. So they decided that they wanted to expand in San Jose. They really didn't have a presence in San Jose. And San Jose's a big city. I mean, it's major and the. But the West End was, you know, I don't know if I'd say blighted, but just there was nothing happening there. But there was a train station there where Caltrain came and Amtrak and Bart was completing the loop around the, the bay, and they were going to on the East Bay, you come down south of Oakland.

John Coe 01:08:41  So south of Daly City, they extended from there.

Rachel Flynn 01:08:44  Or the other side of the bay. Yeah. And come around this go through Milpitas in that area and then come to Sparta.

John Coe 01:08:50  Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 01:08:51  I don't know if it's built yet. I don't know what stage it's in. It was planned. So this was. It was the Dearden station area, they called it. And just west of the Financial district, because you could call it. And so, they were they were going to build a whole Google campus, if you will, and with housing and office and parks.

John Coe 01:09:12  The Googleplex already existed at that time. Did it?

Rachel Flynn 01:09:14  Yeah. So they were there. headquarters is in Mountain View. They took over another company that failed graphics. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

John Coe 01:09:22  So I have the story of that. I'll just share for my reader or my listeners, Jane Lynch, who was a big developer here in Washington. when he left Stanford, he was a student there. He went to work for Silicon Graphics. And while they were in this transitional mode, he set the table for Google to come and buy this. Really? There? Yeah. It was an interesting story, a great story.

Rachel Flynn 01:09:44  I didn't know that. So the Google.

John Coe 01:09:45  Plex is really where Silicon Graphics was. Oh sure.

Rachel Flynn 01:09:49  Sure, sure. So Sergey Brin and Larry Page had been they had an office above the ice cream store in Palo Alto when they started this thing, and they were very confident men, you know, they were. Did you meet them? No, I saw them. They would have Google events and I would see them on stage. but they, just made this up in their dorm room. They were both grad students. Page rank. What's that?

John Coe 01:10:14  Page rank, they called it.

Rachel Flynn 01:10:15  Oh, it is, in.

John Coe 01:10:16  Essence, how they did the search. So they ranked pages. I mean, technically my son is a software engineer. So and he was interviewed by Google as well and offered a job and said no. Interesting. Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 01:10:28  But yeah, it was fast.

John Coe 01:10:30  Explained how they developed the software.

Rachel Flynn 01:10:32  Yeah, I still think the name made a difference. You know, there was part of it.

Rachel Flynn 01:10:37  Yahoo and others, I mean Yahoo, I don't know, but Google apparently it means something. It's like 0000.

John Coe 01:10:46  Almost an infinite number of zeros.

Rachel Flynn 01:10:48  Yeah. And I think people just liked it. It had a ring to it. And, you know, the.

John Coe 01:10:53  Page was as clean as anything. It's just that one line was this Google with the one line and that was your search. When it first started. And still if you go to the Google home page that's what it is. Just one one fill in. It's been that way since they started. So it's.

Rachel Flynn 01:11:08  Interesting. Yeah. And then they open you know other branches. You know they're looking at Avs. They have a whole branch called X. And it was where the secret research and exploration was going on. And so they had several branches at this time. The now the iconic structure kind of looks like an ant eater. that big design, the, Bjarke Ingels Group out of Denmark. And they really loved him. And so he designed two of those.

Rachel Flynn 01:11:36  And that's now then work with him made, no. Not directly. No, because I wasn't working on that, that campus that was already or that phase because it was already under design and going into, construction. So, but but he would be around, but they always hired the best architects. Heatherwick. you know, that they had top notch everywhere. So, it this division of Google called Devco Development construction was just getting built up, and there were maybe about 30 of us when I left. And, I mean, it was such an honor, and the money was crazy good. but there was something about it. It just didn't, it didn't work for me. Some something about the culture. It's very competitive. and I suppose that happens anywhere you go. Like, say you work in the white House. You know, you're among alphas, right? It's just very competitive. It was a different culture. Not that anyone was inappropriate or anything. You know, I'm not bashing Google, but it was just a certain, I don't know, a feel to it.

Rachel Flynn 01:12:51  And, I would have stayed. Meantime, that husband I have remember him, so he, had retired and he, some people approached him to run for office. The Charlottesville incident had happened with the tiki torch march. Heather Heyer was killed. It was a rough time for Charlottesville. And the prosecutor who was in office would not. He was a Republican, which is very rare. It's Albemarle. So you got Charlottesville, the doughnut hole. Albemarle, which is the doughnut. So it actually the UVA campus, most of it's actually in Albemarle. And so the tiki torch march was under this prosecutor. and he said, I'm not going to prosecute. There's no law against it. And the community was just shocked. the the death of Heather Heyer in those incidents where the Confederate monuments were and the the fights that broke out, that was the city. So that prosecutor dealt with that. So some people approached Jim and said, would you run that? We have to we have to deal with this.

Rachel Flynn 01:13:58  Yeah. And I knew he really wanted to and I thought that that would be tough if I was in California. This is before teleworking and everything had we had this culture we have today with telework, I would have maybe I could have worked it out and been there and, you know, come back to Virginia and telework and all that. But that went in possibility. And I he had always been there for me. And I thought, this is something he's always wanted to do. This is really important. So it was a very tough decision. And I so I told them I was leaving. They were shocked and I don't think anybody had ever left. I said, well, how do I have an exit interview or turn in my badge. And we don't know no one's ever done this anyway. So I well, I also said to my husband, if, let me see what's going on in Virginia and if I find something I really like them, I can make the move. And Fairfax was looking for a deputy county executive.

Rachel Flynn 01:14:55  So the way, counties work. So cities have city managers, counties have county executives. And then under the county executive are four deputies and a CFO. So there's a deputy for safety, there's a deputy for health and human services. There's a deputy for admin, which is like back of the House stuff IT fleet. And then there's the deputy for Planning and development, which is me. So I'm over public works, the building department, which we call land development services, transportation, which was huge for me, planning, code compliance and, economic initiatives. And the last one is, environment. So I created the economic initiatives department that had not existed. I can tell that story. And then, environment was new when, it was given to me. So a couple of, initiatives that the board has recently put forth. One is cap the community wide Energy and Climate Action Plan, which a lot of communities now have. And with that, you need a department that can, implement it. And we also have a resilient Fairfax.

Rachel Flynn 01:16:19  So the two prong now, the board had been working on, certain initiatives, office environment and they, decided that, we just need to take this more seriously. So that department was given to me and I took over. it was probably, I don't know, 20 people. And now we're we're going great guns. It's become.

John Coe 01:16:44  So step back for a moment. How were you hired in Fairfax County? I mean, was that a, was the the the county executive hiring you or how? The board.

Rachel Flynn 01:16:55  The board. The board hires the deputy. And it was.

John Coe 01:16:57  Just an advertised position that you responded to, in essence. Okay, I got it. Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 01:17:02  And so Fairfax, has had an economic development authority, the EDA, for years. And a man named Jerry Gordon ran it for a long time. And the focus was the the big whales bring in these major companies. A lot of them were defense contractors. So, General Dynamics, Northrop Grumman, those kind of companies.

Rachel Flynn 01:17:26  And that is really what put Fairfax on the map, economically.

John Coe 01:17:30  So where does Victor Hoskins fit into the equation.

Rachel Flynn 01:17:33  So Jerry retired, and then they hired Victor. And Victor's been there. Coming up on five years. Yeah. And so he had just done the deal, the Amazon deal. And he was very, very coveted. So that that was a great hire. Yeah. but within this county government. So they were their own entity. They have their own board. It's a state charter. but within Fairfax County, we didn't have an economic development department, so I was charged with creating that. And we came up with the name Economic Initiatives. Actually, John Fawcett, who was on the Board of Supervisors, thought that would be a great action word initiative. And I said, yeah, that would be good. And we didn't want to have two economic development groups. So it's the Department of Economic Initiatives. Interestingly, the acronyms die, which people get confused now with diversity, equity and inclusion.

Rachel Flynn 01:18:27  But but that's kind of cool. and so that department is about 20 people as well. So two pretty new departments in my portfolio.

John Coe 01:18:37  Was this your idea or was it. Whose idea was these? Were these departments out of curiosity and why?

Rachel Flynn 01:18:43  with, di they had said we need to have a, our own department. And the reason was over 90% of the, businesses in Fairfax are small businesses. Small business is defined as 50 people or less. And that's not what the EDA dealt with. And they were not retail experts. So when we'd have questions about retail or mixed use developments, you know, what is that right blend. it just wasn't what they did. So the timing could not have been better because we created it in 2019 right before Covid. And with all that Arpa money that came in with Covid, we then redirected it to small businesses. And the thing with small business. They close. Very unlikely. They'll never come back. But if you can keep them going. But you know that faint heartbeat, they will most likely survive.

Rachel Flynn 01:19:41  So we would give ten, 15, $20,000 grants. And that was often enough just to pay the rent. Keep them going.

John Coe 01:19:50  It's interesting. I interviewed several retail developers and owners on my podcast, and all of them. I asked them about the podcast, about the pandemic and how they dealt with it, and they said, we look to governments to help us to try to keep these retailers going. we looked at every source of capital we could find and we had to rent it. We had to abate rent on a lot of these tenants just to keep them in the in the spaces.

Rachel Flynn 01:20:14  That's exactly right. Yeah. Again, back to that question. What does the public sector need to do to help the private sector succeed? And I guess a fourth component of that I talked about three. But the fourth would be emergencies Where government is. You know, when there is a massive flood or wildfires or a pandemic, it is government that comes in. And that's what's so great about our country, really, where we come together and we have these remarkable resources to then pull together and redistribute to people.

Rachel Flynn 01:20:43  So that's what we did. And now, we have a variety like accelerators we've created and really trying to draw out the innovative community. We work closely with GMU. And, one thing we'd like to build on, one of the reasons you have, companies like Google and others is because there was a university connected, and when they have R&D at a university and they're known for it, like Stanford, like MIT, like Carnegie Mellon, often, those, those type of colleges and universities let students keep their patents and then they can go out in the world and do something with it. So we want to form that kind of relationship with GMU. How can we get the students to start being innovative and then stay in Fairfax and expand these companies? But Amazon has we are definitely seeing the ripple effects of Amazon. So with Tysons, that is our engine. If you look at where our real estate dollars come in, it's huge. And now the Silver Line corridor. Right. So the last stop was Reston Station.

Rachel Flynn 01:21:49  And then phase two opened about a year and a half ago. And now it's expanding to rest in town center and on on out to the airport. We were one of perhaps the last major city that didn't have a subway or metro that went to an international airport, so that that was a big deal. And they already have millions of riders. So despite Metro's troubles there, they, you know, they've had some bad luck. Pandemic did not help them. You know, a couple of accidents. Yeah.

John Coe 01:22:20  Talk about Fairfax County, you know, Comparing it to the other jurisdictions that you've worked in. And, I mean, it started as a suburban place. And, you know, there really wasn't an urban center in Fairfax County ever really. Tysons corner was the only one, but it was built at a crossroads, with the regional shopping center being the first real impetus to the whole area there. And then, of course, the West Group and Jerry Halpin. So Ted Lerner and Jerry Halpin were really the pioneers of Fairfax County, along with a guy named till Hazel, who was the attorney that kind of designed everything.

John Coe 01:22:58  And they were really the architects. But it was interesting when I was doing enough of these podcasts, I interviewed, Brian Folger. His father, Sid Folger, actually owned the land underneath Tysons Corner Shopping Center. So he was assembling land before even Ted Lerner was there, which was fascinating to me.

Rachel Flynn 01:23:18  Yes.

John Coe 01:23:19  And he his father also built the Mormon Temple in Kensington. So. Yes. So it's it's it's interesting that Folger, you know, they were doing land development even before Ted Lerner had control that site for for the mall. So there was activity even before that as far as land assembly, before the mall, which is interesting.

Rachel Flynn 01:23:42  Totally. So Fairfax is huge. It's 400mi², 1.2 million people. Population wise, we are bigger than eight states in the country. That's right. Like North Dakota, South and whatnot. And DC, DC is 800,000. So we're bigger. Yeah, they used to be the biggest. And you look at maps of, you know, where the population growth was.

Rachel Flynn 01:24:05  There was a lot of land. It was cheap land, relatively speaking. There was a lot of government investment in the roads. So the Beltway was a big move. 66 and its expansion over time, the Dulles Toll Road. so you started to get these major moves that allowed access to land. I mean, it's not a coincidence that Tysons is where it is, because it's where the Beltway in 66 and also the toll road all come together. And I would say, you know, people from California would say, well, how do you like Fairfax? I say it's wealthy and healthy. I mean, we really are a prosperous, healthy place where our poverty rates very low. It's only 6%, much lower than the national and state average. we have a very high education level, on average throughout the county, our, Army area median income is, is high. It's in, you know, the six digits. I think it's 124. Last I check, I have to confirm that. and so we have great prosperity, great diversity.

Rachel Flynn 01:25:19  Interestingly, Fairfax is 20% Asian now, and we think of Asian often people think the Chinese or Korean. That also includes Indians and Pakistanis. 20%. They're 15% Latinx and 10% African Americans. So we're coming up to, almost half of people of color.

John Coe 01:25:39  I thought that I thought I saw the stats that it is now a majority minority county. Okay. So maybe we saw the stats recently.

Rachel Flynn 01:25:46  So we've just crossed over. Yeah. Fascinating. And I think that brings a unique flavor and, interest. You know, a third of the people in Fairfax are foreign born. And I think what we forget about immigrants is when they come here, they can't believe the opportunities. They just can't believe it. You can start a business and actually prosper. I mean, there just aren't those opportunities in many countries. I can buy this land, this property. I can go to the government for assistance. I mean, our country works, at least for today. And so let's hope we keep it going.

Rachel Flynn 01:26:27  like you think about the infrastructure bill and the Inflation Reduction Act. These are major moves that are really helping all Americans. And so like like many places, we're doing well and we don't have to deal with the stresses and strains of high poverty, high crime. We're one of the safest places in America for a locality our size. I think we're number one in safety. our police chief said this. He came from Baltimore, our police chief, and he said, this is remarkable. I mean, it's just, it just functions so well. And so when you don't have those stresses, you can move on to, to the other work at hand. And so our biggest problem is we were built, as you said, John, on the car. And at that time people thought, great. What's wrong with that? You know, get out of the, you know, to heck with streetcars. All that, you know, got pulled up most mostly post-World War two. We'll just drive everywhere.

Rachel Flynn 01:27:26  And a thing called traffic really wasn't an issue. And then we found out, oh, there is a downside to this. Basically, if everyone's traveling this way, you think about a pedestrian and the size of a pedestrian, and then you think about a car, and the size of a car takes up a lot of room. That is a lot of money to build the infrastructure for. And so we don't have endless money, and we don't have the type of federal investment that we had in the 60s. And 70s is just a different day. So, we are now trying to shift from this very auto dominant, county to more mixed use, concentrated development, particularly with Metro. So we have about 14 metro stops now and to concentrate the development there, but, it doesn't just have to be there. Like you're looking at Fairfax Corner and that is working. And I think the key is placemaking. People know where they're wanted.

John Coe 01:28:22  Mosaic is a good example.

Rachel Flynn 01:28:23  Totally. Right. That's about a mile from the metro, which is.

Rachel Flynn 01:28:27  So a mile is basically a 20 minute walk, right? But most people will go 5 to 10 minutes, but still it's within, shooting distance. So you, What was I going to say about that one?

John Coe 01:28:44  Well, you were at Fairfax Corner, and then you went to mosaic, so.

Rachel Flynn 01:28:47  Yeah. And so they can, they can get there from there. But the focus of it was to really create a they're there and Edens, they're geniuses when it comes to having that magic formula. Like you think about here where we are in union market. Right. And you think about, how they just get the the bones right, the grid of streets, the right size, the right speed, good public spaces and the right mix with that. And they've just got a winning formula. So we want more of that. In fact, I went to Eden's when we had a launch for the autonomous vehicle. we had the first publicly owned autonomous vehicle in Virginia. It was called relay. Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 01:29:33  And it went around mosaic. It went up to the Metro at Dawn. Loring. And then I would come to mosaic, and it was there maybe two years. It was really fun. And so I met the, one of the developers, Steve Boyle, and I said, why aren't you expanding this? I mean, this is a coal mine and we need more of this. And he said, yeah, we own the we own the land. There's a Gold's Gym, it's south of mosaic. And we worked really hard to develop that plan with them. Look at the zoning, the fear, how much he could build. And they were about ready to pull the trigger. And then there's an owner right in the middle. There's like an Iron Mountain kind of building. It's a big storage building. And right on gallows and that company sold. And so they almost had to deal with the prior owner to buy it, because each has to get approval from the other. They share the parking lot.

Rachel Flynn 01:30:25  and now it's owned by kite and now they've had to start all over. So I keep bugging them. and, hopefully Jody McLean and that group, will, figure out a way to buy that property and kite will sell. So same thing with, Fairfax Corner. They continue to infill that. You've been there.

John Coe 01:30:45  Peterson.

Rachel Flynn 01:30:46  Yep. That's right. It was just a brilliant, brilliant job. And they hired a design firm. I always forget the name, but I think they're out of Baltimore. And they did the same thing as well. You got to get that grid right. The streets, the design of the streets, the public spaces and the right location, the parking, you know, on the periphery. And, they too are, our are really hitting it out of the ballpark so we know we can do this. And then you look at what Boston Properties is doing and Ray Ritchie and how he was able to keep BW here and then get Fannie Mae from DC. That's right. These were big wins.

Rachel Flynn 01:31:22  That was huge.

John Coe 01:31:23  Reston Town Center is a special place.

Rachel Flynn 01:31:25  It really is. And with the opening of that a year and a half ago, that stopped. he's been able to, build what they call Reston next, right at the metro. And you walk through that and it will have all these elements we were just talking about. It's got the housing, the hotel, the office, good public space, good bones, nice street grid. You cross over the food trail and you get into, the Reston, the historic Reston Town Center core, which is, in my view, always done. Well, you know, all places have a little bit of up and down, moments, but they're doing really well with their their blend of uses. The office, Deloitte, I believe, is there now. really good restaurant choices and, and a variety of condos, townhomes, an apartment building. So it's the it's the magic formula.

John Coe 01:32:19  And an exit earlier than that. Your former employer is, has a big sign right on the Dulles Toll Road.

Rachel Flynn 01:32:26  Google. Yeah. So the next station over the station. Yeah. Where Comstock is Chris Clement. Yeah. Like, Ray, I mean, these are very visionary thinkers and they really take chances. I know developers are often thought of as the guys of the black hats, but they I mean, they they really are my heroes because they take that financial risk. They have that vision. They slog through day to day details. Having worked briefly as a developer with five point and then Google make oh wow. There's a lot to this, you know. And they don't just sit around all day saying, how can I just make more money? It's really not what they do. They're really very focused on placemaking, success, helping a community. They want to make a buck, but of course they have to. We want them to. We need them to, so that, that's what we're focusing on. And so Reston Station, Chris Clement is now they just topped off the hotel, I believe it's a marriott.

Rachel Flynn 01:33:26  They're building two spec office buildings, which is really interesting. Who's building spec office today and I well it's leasing. Yes.

John Coe 01:33:33  And it's.

Rachel Flynn 01:33:34  Leasing. Exactly. And what we hear is companies now can be a little choosier. And they, they want that, you know new trophy space right and right at Metro. You're kidding me. And then they have a new residential building. So we've been working to try and improve the street. design really. So you've got a Reston Station Boulevard where it's really been dominated by buses because there's a bus fault right in the middle, and we're working to move it. It's like this street isn't working. They don't have room for on street parking, which is a killer for retail. Think about going back to mosaic and, Fairfax Corner and others. You've got to have that so someone can just pull over and the retail just keeps failing. So we're working on moving. That bus stalled out. Chris says he wants to Clementi wants to take that space and turn it into like a bowling alley or a theater or something, because it's all underground.

John Coe 01:34:26  I think he has the largest underground parking lot in Fairfax County.

Rachel Flynn 01:34:29  We actually own it. I know. Right?

John Coe 01:34:31  He told that story.

Rachel Flynn 01:34:33  Yeah. And we're talking about 4000 spaces. Nothing. And it was full at one time. But no more. No more. It's a different day.

John Coe 01:34:41  Well, it's because of the metro or because the pandemic, he said, right. At the pandemic, everything totally.

Rachel Flynn 01:34:45  Totally. It's a different day. So then we you know, Gensler, you mentioned Gensler earlier. They have been designing parking garages that can be converted to office or resi, and they get the floor to floor height, right? They've got the systems right where the core is so that, okay, this doesn't work. We're going to switch to that. I just thought that was brilliant. I wish we had known that. But what Chris did while Bob Simon was still alive, this was interesting, is Bob told him, do not put that garage above ground, you're going to kill this place.

Rachel Flynn 01:35:16  And that's where what is the public sector need to do to help the private sector? We borrowed the money to build that thing. We can build infrastructure and we're not out to make money. But, you know, it has to be financially feasible and prudent. And so that was that was how that got done. And then he did the rest. Now you think about Vienna and two garages right there. Right. Why hasn't Vienna worked. Right. And a big transfer center at grade. Yeah a place killer. Right. So I was I heard a lecture recently. This guy said placemaking and place breaking in that and that broke it. And so we've learned learn the hard way. And so Ray Ritchie and that team has done it right as well. They're doing underground at their sites. So, back to what Fairfax needs. So we have what's called an SOV rate single occupant vehicle use rate at 71%. And, we really should be at 50 at the most. So we're really working on that.

Rachel Flynn 01:36:18  We have an active Fairfax plan going on safe streets for all plan. And VDot owns our our roads. They maintain and operate them. and we have to work with them very closely. But we're really pushing to what I call not rewarding the through traveler as much. It was always and that was the suburban model. Right. You got from a your subdivision to be the Pentagon downtown office buildings and everything in between was just, throughput. We call them car sewers. So we've been treating streets like a water utility. Just get it through. And now we're saying, wait a minute. These are living, breathing places that really need to have a variety of uses on them. You know, not just Walmarts or an exit to an office park, but buildings right on the street. And you think about the Rosslyn Ballston corridor, right? It's a miracle. It is so remarkable how that community came together and created that masterpiece. You know, just a phenomenal economic, boost for that county. And we didn't get the unfortunately, the metro below grade, but at least it's there.

Rachel Flynn 01:37:33  And now we're trying to build around.

John Coe 01:37:35  This corner is now envisioned to be similar to the Rosslyn Ballston quarter in some respects, in some.

Rachel Flynn 01:37:40  Respects. Right. But with the above ground.

John Coe 01:37:42  Ability that Wilson Boulevard has for, for instance.

Rachel Flynn 01:37:46  Right. I think we're going to have to go to other portions. so neighborhoods are developing within Tyson. So you got the cap one area which is very walkable, mixed use. That's been a huge success. Across the street where City Line is, that was Jerry Halpern's company original.

John Coe 01:38:04  Schaefer's running.

Rachel Flynn 01:38:05  That's right. Yeah. And remarkable team. And so they're developing their section called Scotts Run. Then you've got the area where the Mather just went in. Yes. The that that's where you and I could live, John, when we're old. Well that's.

John Coe 01:38:18  Also luxury city line assembled that.

Rachel Flynn 01:38:21  Too. Yes that's right, that's right. And so that's becoming its own neighborhood. Then you have the area at so there's the Spring Hill Metro where the borough is, and Meridian built that.

Rachel Flynn 01:38:35  I know you know them. And that's been a real success. Then you go further down, the last stop, whose name is a spring? No, not spring. One one's called Greensboro and one's called Spring Hill. That's right, Tyson's west.

John Coe 01:38:48  Maybe it's called station.

Rachel Flynn 01:38:50  And so that,

John Coe 01:38:51  Greensboro drive?

Rachel Flynn 01:38:52  Yeah. There was a plan to build, like, the tallest building in Fairfax there. I don't know that that will happen anymore, but there is very strong interest in that area. So we have this necklace of metro stops along the way, and it is happening now. The next part is to re weave the fabric of what was built as wide arterials for throughput. About a third of the traffic in Tysons is just throughput. We don't get their money, we don't get their investment, they don't live there, they don't work there, they don't shop there. So why reward them? They should really be taking the toll road or 66 or the Beltway. If they want to come through, that's fine.

Rachel Flynn 01:39:32  But they're going to it's going to be slower. And we're what I say humanize our streets going from these, you know, eight lane wide arterials.

John Coe 01:39:39  So you're going to start narrowing the streets in Tysons Corner.

Rachel Flynn 01:39:42  So I would love to. That's going to take a while but I'll tell you where we are starting is Reston Station. So we'll have parts of it are up to nine lanes. It's wider than Connecticut Avenue or, you know, Pennsylvania. It's way over capacity. So we're starting to challenge some of the assumptions and the modeling they use. And that's something I learned from California. They did away with level of service loss and switched to what they call vehicle miles traveled. So you think more holistically about how that street is used. So they're bringing so we're bringing that thinking to wheelie. And I think it's going to be our first, bona fide, road diet and to bring it down from 9 to 6 and make it more like a Connecticut avenue for on street parking.

John Coe 01:40:30  What's the northern terminus of that of Wylie Avenue?

Rachel Flynn 01:40:33  Is that is it sunset? Okay.

Rachel Flynn 01:40:37  Yeah. Okay. So from sunrise, which is south of the toll road to sunset, we're starting with the northern part where, Comstock's development is. Yes, but they're going to be doing the South part as well. So, yeah, eventually.

John Coe 01:40:52  Assembled all that land. They have 13,000,000ft² of density there. I mean it's just incredible. It is. Yeah. So in essence they can build their own city. Exactly.

Rachel Flynn 01:41:04  In essence like Boston Properties has done. Yeah. And they're a great partner. They really want to get it right. I'm like well why are you doing that. Why don't you try this. And Chris says okay we can look at that. It's really nice. You know they it has a very forward thinking approach.

John Coe 01:41:19  Yeah. Well I also interviewed Jim Davis. Davis Construction, such a delightful person who built the garage.

Rachel Flynn 01:41:26  That's right, that's right.

John Coe 01:41:27  All that. And he talks about the relationship between Fairfax County and them and, and and Chris and he said it's been a very, very good relationship I agree.

Rachel Flynn 01:41:36  I agree, yeah.

John Coe 01:41:38  Which is I want to step back just for a moment about that. And I live in Montgomery County, Maryland. And you grew up there? it just it's such a contrast. And we talked about this on the phone as well. And I'm not going to get into my historical, you know, perspective that you and I talked about a little bit. But, you know, let's just say, for instance, Montgomery County approached you and said, so, Rachel, would you come here and do what you did for Fairfax County? what if you were looking at Montgomery County since, you know, it grew up there? What what advice would you give Montgomery County today if you were thinking about all what you've learned over the last 20 or 30 years of your planning career?

Rachel Flynn 01:42:28  Yeah, some of the similar issues with Fairfax were the streets are more for throughput. Not all of them, but there are a lot, you know, New Hampshire Avenue, Pierce mill, you know, those roads that are coming back to me now.

Rachel Flynn 01:42:42  and I think they're actually working on it like a BRT on those roads. And to really create that, they're they're a much like they did in Bethesda. But that's to row. And I think that's been a real success. And, corporations have stayed and invested like Marriott, like Clark and others. so I would go down that road and I think they are very interested in that and are there already again, looking at it. But I would, boost that even more to, to create the real value. I think we leave a lot of value on the table when we don't get the, the bones right of the transportation systems and then the actual design of the street, because new I tell my staff the three legged stool. So the transportation network and street designs, then the land use and then the economic development and the three are always have to be working together. You need to think, okay, if we're going to design the street that way, what is the street want to be? It depends on what you know.

Rachel Flynn 01:43:43  The land uses is is an industrial park, you know, or a Amazon distribution center. Okay. I can tell you what kind of street you need there and where, where you should be, you know, near those major highways, right? But if you want it to be a real place, like, like here, Union Market or the others we've talked about, then your street needs to come down to size. You got to slow that speed. You need to help pedestrians come out. Pedestrians know where they're wanted and they avoid higher speed, more dangerous places. So like a 29 we have sidewalks along it. But are people going to walk it if they have a choice? Now there are people who walk who often don't have a choice. Right. and so how do we then, shift that. And route one is an example. So we are putting BRT there and it's a $1.3 billion project. So this is a major investment, the Beltway.

John Coe 01:44:40  All the way down to Mount Vernon, basically.

John Coe 01:44:41  Or pretty.

Rachel Flynn 01:44:42  Much. Yep. From the Huntington Metro, which is just below the beltway. down to Fort Belvoir, and it's about seven miles, and it will go up parts of route 1 or 5 lanes or seven. There's a suicide lane in the middle, but instead. So this will be ten lanes. and it'll have BRT in the middle and then turn lanes and then the three lane throughput. So working with staff now to make sure we create place along like where the nodes are for the stops for the BRT, so that this ten lanes doesn't become a divider, but it unites. And you think about Pennsylvania Avenue, it's pretty wide, but because of the architecture and the slower speed of the of the road, people feel comfortable crossing. That's what I want for route one. That's what I want for route 29, for route 50, for these major corridors, for Braddock Road.

John Coe 01:45:37  Leesburg Pike and Tysons Corner.

Rachel Flynn 01:45:38  That's right, at seven 123, all of these. And we're starting to challenge the, the models and the formulas that have been applied in the past by saying you're rewarding the driver and the throughput driver.

Rachel Flynn 01:45:53  Where does the pedestrian come in? Where does the cyclist come in? Where does the transit rider come in? Another policy that the board passed is called one Fairfax. And they're very concerned about equity in Dei like we were talking about. Well, if you look at certain parts of Fairfax, car ownership rate is lower in the higher minority areas. Those people don't have a choice. And like Mary-Lou said, they deserve the best street, you know, not just what's left over. And they have to use it. And we've all seen them, you know, they're walking on the edge or. Yeah, parents with little kids. And, you know, we we really need to take care of them, ensure their safety. Number one, but also that it's a beautiful and nice place to be. That's why so many people go to mosaic. So many people go to Fairfax County. You know, I don't know if you've been there on a Friday or Saturday night, but it's just filled with families, filled with families.

Rachel Flynn 01:46:49  and so it's really nice to see. And I wish we had that kind of activity on our major streets. So we're we're starting to work on that and, get VDot to kind of come around and see that we need to think of all users. So will you have level of service for cars? We're working to create an loss for pedestrians and loss for cyclists and loss for transit riders. And VDot is part of that. And I think they're learning a lot too, because engineers were taught a certain way, do this formula. And now we're saying, no, no, we have to expand the pie here. So that's a huge part of it.

John Coe 01:47:22  So are you are you overseeing Fairfax County transportation? Then you are okay. So you have the transportation and the planning and the economic development.

Rachel Flynn 01:47:31  And public works. So we have sewer. We have water, Solid waste. Okay. Capital facilities.

John Coe 01:47:38  Right. So you're, you know, almost everything physical in the county. You manage. That's that's exciting.

John Coe 01:47:46  It's a it's a powerful role.

Rachel Flynn 01:47:47  It is.

John Coe 01:47:48  Yeah. the county doesn't have time to do all that.

Rachel Flynn 01:47:51  No. You can't. No. Just like you can't run the police department and fire, you know. Yes. A deputy county executive for that. And he has one for HHS who oversees, you know, all the Health and Human services, programs. So, yeah.

John Coe 01:48:07  That's interesting.

Rachel Flynn 01:48:08  Yeah.

John Coe 01:48:09  So since you have a multidisciplinary background with architecture, public planning, land use development, private sector technology and international experiences, it seems that you understand cooperation and the win win considerations in implementing change. Talk about your planning philosophy and how you negotiate fairness among all district parties. We've talked a little bit about this, but talk a little bit more philosophically here.

Rachel Flynn 01:48:35  Yeah. So, you know, we work for the people of Fairfax or, you know, name the place where I've worked in the past, and have to think about what they need. Right. Where can they live, have a variety of housing types, where can they work? How do we make it as easy as possible to get from A to B? Where do they shop? So think about all that.

Rachel Flynn 01:48:59  Ask them what they want. Those public spaces. We talked about the riverfront here. I mean we do have a riverfront, but more important, within the county, you know, how do we give them those great spaces and get the, private sector to then invest in those places? So getting back to the vision and asking the people, what do you want? And it's interesting, you know, we were talking about street design and it sounds so boring, but it just has such an impact. So, they'll a new development will be proposed and the people who already lived there say we don't want it. You've heard of Nimby? Oh, yeah. Not in my backyard, right? And it's in some ways it's like I got mine. Now go down the road. Well, there's not much road to go down anymore. We just widened 66 to 12 lanes. That's it. We're not going to be able to widen it anymore unless we're going to start taking houses. And that's not going to happen.

Rachel Flynn 01:49:53  So, you can only go out so far without, you know, creating horrendous traffic. So how do we build within these areas? So a big part of our job is to educate people and to talk to them about how these systems work. So they'll say, I do not want any more traffic in my neighborhood. It's like, all right, well, what if we made the street so that we induce more pedestrian cycle and transit use? We're not adding to the volume. And what if we get existing drivers to now get out of their cars? So shift the behavior. So rather than assume that everyone is just going to keep traveling the same way, and we just got to keep winding and winding, winding. We're doing then damage to the very kind of people we want to have come there. what if we rethought it? And sometimes some people just don't want to hear it. But most people really do listen and they say, oh, well, I hadn't thought about it that way. And I was at a meeting the other night for Wheeling Ave at Reston Station.

Rachel Flynn 01:50:53  There was a public meeting to show him the road diet, and there were some who said, no, no, no, you're going to delay my, you know, time to get to the early bird Special, wherever they're going. And, there was a young woman there, who, looked over at me, and I just, reached out to her and said, hi, I'm Rachel Bush. I know I heard you speak about, the planning of Fairfax, and that's why I'm here tonight. I was so compelled by what you said, and I want to be part of it. And I said, can I hug you? And this is exactly why we do what we do is to reach out to people, share our knowledge. This is what they do for a living. It's what we do. How can we help them? You know, you don't go to a doctor and say, well, here's my symptom. And the doctor says, well, what do you think I should do? You know, they tell you, they educate you.

Rachel Flynn 01:51:44  Here are your options. We can do surgery. We can do treatment. We? Sure. And so the same thing with, our line of business, like, okay, here's how it's going to work, you guys. We can widen the road, but you're never going to get those pedestrians you want. And guess what? You just took up space for cars. You don't want cars, but we're just added more. There was a great planner, who founded the project for public places, and he said, if you design your communities for cars and traffic, you get cars and traffic. You design your communities for people and places. You get people in places. That's what we're seeing right around us here. Let's say all these places and they're money makers. That's yeah, if they didn't make money, that might be another thing. but they're very successful. So when people hear that and a lot more younger young people are coming out, they actually have bearing. So there's a new group started in California, of course, because so many things start there called yes, in my backyard.

Rachel Flynn 01:52:41  The Yimby's. Right. And I was talking to a woman from the coalition for Smarter Growth, which is really been a yimby organization. Stewart Schwartz handles that. I knew him well in Richmond. And then Sonya Bree, he is his local person. And I said, Sonya, you guys should start a yimby group because, oh, there is one in Northern Virginia. It's like two people. So I reached out to them and said, it would be great if you guys would get more involved in the planning process and come to public meetings. Well, darned if they didn't take that advice and come out. And they, came to the Parking Reimagined meeting and we were rethinking, one of the advantages that we built these huge parking lots is now we have land where you can put those townhouses like Aya is putting them or or rethink a whole area, right. Because you got land right in prime spots. So they came out there must have been, I would say, 25 people. It was great.

Rachel Flynn 01:53:39  And the board was pleasantly surprised, like young people were coming out and speaking and they're this is their future, you know, often older white people. And, and it's just not as blended as we had hoped. So I think it is working. People are getting educated, they're rethinking, and they need places to live. That is that is a big challenge besides traffic. And we have a certain set of bones and we need to change the bones while the patient's still alive. But the other thing is now the housing crisis in America, not just here, but I think NIMBYs were a big part of that. We just have not built enough.

John Coe 01:54:18  Well, there's, you know, the no zoning Movement going around the country with regard to single family zoning.

Rachel Flynn 01:54:26  Missing middle like Arlington? Yeah, well, just.

John Coe 01:54:29  In Montgomery County, there's a big, strong movement right now to eliminate single family zoning altogether, which, you know, it's caused angst. And in older communities. Yeah, yeah. So they're worried about high rises or not as high rises, but multifamily being built next door to them and things like that.

Rachel Flynn 01:54:48  But you look at, like we were talking about the Rosslyn Ballston quarter, same thing. And look at what happened to those property values. People's the biggest investment they made in life just doubled. Yeah. Quadruple whatnot. So it's interesting hearing people complain about, home, about their home value going up. It's like, but this is your greatest investment. Like it just doubled, right?

John Coe 01:55:12  Exactly. In 2007, I participated in Reality Check, which was a regional planning exercises where leaders in both the public and private sectors from all disciplines came together in small groups, with a regional map and boxes of Legos to plan density and uses for the region. The results of that were quite interesting, yet not too much has really changed since then, unfortunately. Certainly awareness was raised, but not only when distress, metro funding or opportunity HQ2 or the Olympics was apparent. Did collaboration occur to reallocate densities and opportunities appropriately? Do you think this thought process could be resurrected? The pandemic may have may have qualified as a distressful event and its repercussions are still being felt.

John Coe 01:56:08  Your thoughts?

Rachel Flynn 01:56:10  Oh, yes. it, first of all, we have a strong economy now, so in oh seven, the timing was unfortunate because then we had the oh eight downturn and people just weren't building for a while. It took, well, you would know three, 3 to 5, if not more years to really start building up again. So now we're in a good economy. I know interest rates have, you know, gone up. And that is putting a slight pause, but nothing like zero eight right now. And it will come back. You know, the feds are going to make their adjustments and then it'll start increasing more. So I think those are the times when, you step back and you think, what do we want to be? How do we want to grow? And we have been doing that. So we have a process going on now called Plan Forward. And we're revisiting our policy plans. And I think this is the very thing that will come up. And we are we're actually advertising for a new Dot director.

Rachel Flynn 01:57:04  And I'm hoping we get that person who really understands, like, you know, maybe Pete Buttigieg will apply. What do you think? or Janet SATA Khan, who ran Dot For Bloomberg in New York City. I want that real, forward thinking, visionary person who motivates people. Get some excited. I think if we don't deal with transportation, I know it's a boring subject with how we design our streets. I think that will affect the land use. And then because people go, why can't this work here? It's like because of the three legged stool, you have to think of all three. So I think the timing is really good to be looking at all three. And one of the plans, policy plans we're looking at is, transportation and looking at the complete streets model, which Alexandria has done DC so that and then that density. Now that Metro is basically done, I mean, one day maybe it'll extend along 66 or even go down route one one day, but I think we're putting those pieces in place to then allow that, that type of land use we want and investment and it affects job creation and what kind of companies want to be here.

John Coe 01:58:14  Pivoting to social issues that affect this thinking. How do we change the mindsets to accentuate differences among people, highlighting their strengths as contributing people both in business and society?

Rachel Flynn 01:58:28  Well, I think we need to respect all views, and there's not, like, a bad guy and a good guy or gal. and to think about, what they need, you know, the business owner needs to make money, and we want them to make money. We don't have to see that developer is the enemy, but a real partner. And again, bring people together, listen to each other, hear what they can do for a community. I mean, I've seen Chris Clementi do this. I've seen, Taylor Chess do this. I've seen Ray Richie do this when they talk to the community about help me understand. Tell me what you want and how I can make your life better. What kind of housing? And it's often now I just want affordable housing. Okay, well, there are certain types that are going to be more affordable than others, and that's where that density comes in.

Rachel Flynn 01:59:21  Then you can address people who are quote anti density, to get them to understand this need and how we've, we're creating these other problems and bring them bring them aboard. And I think it is changing. We have this thing called the accessory dwelling unit ordinance. Yeah. And we have we have a little ways to go, but at least now you can put a unit in your, your attic or your basement. So within your house, if you want it to be a separate structure, you need two acres. But at least we got started. The camel's nose is in the tent. Right. And this is what happened in Montgomery County. Then a few years later, they said, okay, maybe just an acre. Okay, now half an acre. So people get used to the idea that and then people can live in a community that otherwise they never could have lived in. People can buy a house knowing they can get rental income, so now they can afford to buy that house. and it's and it builds community.

Rachel Flynn 02:00:17  So little moves like that. And we come together and look at the social aspect, the business aspect. And, and we can work together on this. And with Fairfax's great wealth, that makes a big difference. That's great.

John Coe 02:00:31  In our call recently, I referred to utilize Urban Plan, which is a planning exercise, is started with with high school students and now expanded to college students and public sector officials. It seems that good planning comes from education, and seeing the give and take between public and private, private, public officials and private sector. This model orients people to think about what it takes financially, socially and emotionally to plan and develop communities. I'm suggesting I hope you take the time to learn about it, is. From what I've read about you, this would resonate totally.

Rachel Flynn 02:01:14  And it gets back to my hero, Mayor Riley, who founded the Mayor's Institute on City Design. And it was exactly this. And teaching politicians about planning design because they have so much power and they go into they have to bring a case study.

Rachel Flynn 02:01:33  So it's like, say it was mosaic before mosaic was there, when it was just a movie theater. And they would take that and say, here's what we're thinking of doing. And they bring national experts in from transportation economics, planning, whatnot, even developers, and they say, okay, here's what you need to think about. And the mayor's there's no press allowed, no staff allowed. The mayor has to know that project and explain it. And we did one for for Richmond, the riverfront, that project where they were going to build that massive, development. And I think it really, helped educate the mayor. So, absolutely, those kind of things, however you can hit it, you go into high schools, you know, talk to college students of, at VCU. I spoke a lot there because they were right, right downtown. And they always came in to to have internships as a result and have now gone on to be planning directors wherever, but wherever and whenever you can reach somebody.

Rachel Flynn 02:02:33  Whenever I get an invite to talk, I don't care if three people are there. You never know who will be in that audience. Like the woman who came up to me and said, I'm here tonight because I heard you speak, and this is part of what we got to do. Get out there, educate, inform them. No judgment. People feel judged or, you know, berated. Forget it. You've lost them. Just educate and say, here's why this works. Here's why this this doesn't. And a lot of times people go, I never really thought about that. Like I knew it didn't, but I didn't have the language. I didn't have the knowledge to know why that's successful and that's not, or that street works and this doesn't why I wouldn't walk there, why I would walk here. And so it's so rewarding. It's, you know, just to teach people.

John Coe 02:03:19  Well, it's that and it's also to understand different perspectives and the multidisciplinary approach you have. I mean, you've seen you've seen six ways of seeing the same thing.

Rachel Flynn 02:03:32  You know, it's a good way, right? Totally.

John Coe 02:03:34  So you could look at the same thing and a different part of you says, this is the way we should look at. And another part of you says, no, no, we should look at it this way. So you have to within yourself, you're debating what is the right situation for the for what's at hand here. Right.

Rachel Flynn 02:03:51  I am a bit of an x ray machine. Yes.

John Coe 02:03:55  But it's an internal thing because what does this experience tell me that this does. And then my other another experience hits you with oh, wait a minute, you know, and it isn't always other people. It's within yourself.

Rachel Flynn 02:04:08  No mind. Right. Like, where should that public space be? It's you think this is going to work in your own head? That's why I just steal from people. You know, I'm a big copycat that like the Wharf. I think The Wharf is a masterpiece. I love the word phenomenal. And I'm like, okay, phenomenal.

Rachel Flynn 02:04:23  Let me break this down. Like, let me do an x ray of this. How did this work? Where did they place this. And yeah, right. Just learn from others.

John Coe 02:04:31  Yeah I think you don't have this much waterfront in Fairfax County. Unless you were to go down near Mount Vernon and do something down there, which would be an.

Rachel Flynn 02:04:38  Interesting it would.

Rachel Flynn 02:04:39  Be situation. Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 02:04:40  Our because our, land is so high. Right. You know, we don't have the old town. Yeah, yeah I don't we have very few parks. And then we got Fort Belvoir, which we can't touch. You know, that's the US military. So most of the land that touches the river is, is not accessible to us or we don't have it. Right, right.

John Coe 02:05:02  So, Rachel, I understand you moved now to, Greeley, Colorado, with a new position. So could you tell us a little bit about that, and why you left Fairfax County? and, you know, kind of what this opportunity, how it presented itself and how it's playing out now.

John Coe 02:05:25  Thank you.

Rachel Flynn 02:05:26  Yeah. well, as you could, see from my life experience, I, have, worked in many places and many cities. And often at the five year mark, when I'm at a place, I, reevaluate, see if it's working. for both of us. And, if there's another opportunity I want to pursue. And while I really enjoyed my work in Fairfax and felt we were making progress, I am. I'm 65 and so I figure I'll work another five years or so. And was thinking, what would I want to do when those last five years stay where I am, look at other opportunities. And right about that time, right after we spoke. Initially a headhunter reached out and he said, would you ever consider Greeley, Colorado? And I said, where? And so he said, it's becoming a bedroom community of Denver. It's north about 50 minutes. And so fast growing community. It's about 120,000 now, and they expect to be about 240,000 in 2025 years.

Rachel Flynn 02:06:54  And when I asked, well, why? Why are they growing and not the other places like Boulder and Fort Collins along that route 25 corridor, he said. Because they have the water and they secured that water over a over a century ago, and then the decades after, which tells me they're good planners and really thinking of the future. That the city was named after Horace Greeley, who was the founder and editor of the Herald Tribune in New York City, probably read his works when he was giving Abraham Lincoln grief throughout the Civil War. Yeah, and he's the one who coined the phrase go west, young man. And, experienced the growth of the country. He didn't come out here to found it. His right hand man, the editor of the agriculture section of the paper, came out and laid out a grid, planted the trees, all the trees died. They started again. They dug the ditches for the water. but it was first called Union Colony. And it was planned as this utopian city where people would be educated, moral believe in religion.

Rachel Flynn 02:08:13  And it was a dry town, and there was a group of 200 and some who came with them to to be a part of this experiment. And as you can see, it worked. And, Meeker was the man's name. I think it was John Meeker. And he asked, Horace Greeley if he could name the town after him. they do have drinking now, which is really nice. but I thought, you know, my age, thinking back to the cities, I really enjoyed that, even though I intentionally wanted to go to the bigger cities or counties each time. the smaller the city, the more, engaged I could be in specific projects and, policies and whatnot in the city. And I thought, that that might be nice to to be that involved again. You know, being in Fairfax, as I mentioned, it's bigger than eight states in the country and DC. And so it was like running a state, you know, it's just enormous. all the all the projects, all the initiatives underway and not to mention all the regional issues, you know, the Council of Governments, the Metro, the MPO, everyone has an MPO, but everything is so large and expansive in Fairfax.

Rachel Flynn 02:09:48  And it was a different kind of job. And, how I would manage, my seven departments. And so you really relied on your directors. you have to delegate a lot. And the smaller the city, the more you can be engaged in specific projects like the downtown. So they have a historic downtown and they've made some progress, but I think they could go even further. And I really wanted to be part of that, like I did in Lynchburg, Richmond, and to some extent, Oakland. and also with the growth of Fairfax is pretty much flat with their population growth, slight increases each year. Interestingly, population went down during Covid and Fairfax, but now back up maybe a percent or so. But to plan a city that will double in size, they have extensive amount of land here, mostly agriculture And I thought, I want to be able to to shape that. And with all that I've learned and through my education and experience and work, and to do it right, to make it as walkable and environmentally sensitive as possible, so that and then they want to expand the airport, make it competitive with Fort Collins Airport.

Rachel Flynn 02:11:13  So the city manager, Raymond Lee, he's he really has great vision for this city. And I loved hearing about it and was excited about it. And it's, a good council. And so I thought, well, let me go out and talk to them. And the more I saw and the more I learned, I really like the team he's put together. I thought I would like to be a part of that. So it's been about six weeks. It's been very enjoyable. It's a beautiful part of the country. You find yourself, You keep looking at the mountains. You just automatically they're just always there. and it's actually only about 40 minutes from Cheyenne, Wyoming. So it's really interesting part of the country that I didn't know much about. And, and then just learning about water water rights.

John Coe 02:12:08  Are you closer to Wyoming than you are to Denver.

Rachel Flynn 02:12:12  It's about halfway in between us. Yeah. About a little a little bit closer to Wyoming actually, which is interesting.

John Coe 02:12:21  And so when you said it's agriculture, I mean, that part of the state I think is it's pretty rocky there.

John Coe 02:12:29  Right. And it's not it's more isn't it, more grazing than.

Rachel Flynn 02:12:34  Than crops or, you know, a lot of crops. Yeah. Huge sugar beet was the big crop in the day when they founded this area. I'm not sure why, but okay. That was this one, it's just prairie. Prairie land. There are no trees. All the trees you see out here have been planted. They've had to figure out what kind of trees, how to plant them. Plant them. That is a challenge. But there's there's a fair amount now. and, you know, the vistas, they're so expansive. And I was telling my husband, I said you could just see so far. And I think it's because there aren't as many trees just super there.

John Coe 02:13:15  But my wife was born actually in eastern Colorado. Really? Right. Right near the Kansas line. Yeah. small town in kid, Carson County. And, but that is, you know, you wouldn't know whether you were in Kansas or Colorado there.

John Coe 02:13:33  Yeah, it's virtually the same. It's flat and just, you know, all plains there. So, but I got a sense north of north of Denver. I thought it was more mountainous, but I guess maybe not as much as it's west is where obviously the mountains start.

Rachel Flynn 02:13:52  Yeah, it's pretty flat. There's a great book that, Oh, gosh, what's his name? Because of the name he writes all those, you know, a thousand page novels. James.

John Coe 02:14:03  Michener.

Rachel Flynn 02:14:04  Thank you, sir. So on.

John Coe 02:14:07  Yeah, I know, I've read the book.

Rachel Flynn 02:14:09  Oh. You did? Centennial. Centennial? Yeah. And centennial of the name. Because Colorado became a state. That's right, the US centennial. It's a great book.

John Coe 02:14:18  Yeah, yeah, it's a good book for you if you haven't read it to.

Rachel Flynn 02:14:21  I just got it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's the movie.

John Coe 02:14:27  I assume you read Chesapeake then? If you're an adventure fan.

Rachel Flynn 02:14:30  I never did. Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 02:14:32  Oh, okay. Always on my list, but I just never got around to it. Yeah, he's a great one.

John Coe 02:14:39  Yeah, well, I'm happy that you've, you know, settled in there and that's great. It, you know, maybe the final leg of your career. It sounds like that's the way you're your glide path thing in. It sounds like at.

Rachel Flynn 02:14:52  This point, yeah, it's nice to wind down a little bit. And,

John Coe 02:14:56  So do you think you and your husband would retire there, or would you come back to to to the DC area or Virginia or whatever?

Rachel Flynn 02:15:04  I know, yeah, we'll always have a link there because that's where his boys are and his he has seven grandkids now, so we'll always have a foothold there. And then whether we'll, you know, end up in DC or that area because of my family, remains to be seen. But, yeah, you never know. Maybe this could could be a place and it's still very affordable, you know, so the average home price is about 400,000.

John Coe 02:15:30  Wow. There you go.

Rachel Flynn 02:15:32  Yeah, yeah.

John Coe 02:15:35  Nice place out there if you want.

Rachel Flynn 02:15:37  That, too. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And Fairfax is, probably getting up to 700,000 on average. Yeah, but what's interesting, the eastern part of Greeley is agricultural and the western part is suburban, basically, with the historic downtown in the core. And the University of Northern Colorado is here. So that would be the third biggest university, got University of Colorado in Boulder. Then you got Colorado State and Fort Collins and this one University of Northern Colorado. And they're all like along that 25 corridor. Sure. Yeah. And you call it the Front Range, which is the eastern side of the Rockies, though the other side is called the Western slope, where a lot of the ski resorts are. Right. So we're in the Front Range and, but I mean, it is big. AG so, JBS is an enormous meat producer here.

John Coe 02:16:37  Yes.

Rachel Flynn 02:16:38  A lot about that was started locally there, the company that shifted from grass fed to a grain bed, because there's just not enough grass in the world for meat consumption in America.

Rachel Flynn 02:16:53  And now it's spreading. And then a Brazilian company bought them out called JBS. So they're an enormous food producer with the other meats as well. And then one of the biggest cheese producers, believe it or not, if you eat pizza, you are eating cheese from Greeley. no name. They produce the most mozzarella in the country. Maybe the world, who knows? But you keep hearing stories like that. You know, like the pinto beans. the supplier of all of Taco Bell's pinto beans. And who knew I'd be learning about all these food products? Yes. Yeah, like Louden was 25 years.

John Coe 02:17:34  Well, the meatpacking business has its own issues. And we talked about that briefly, as I recall, early offline. And so that has impact on development there I imagine.

Rachel Flynn 02:17:48  Yes.

John Coe 02:17:53  Affecting downwind.

Rachel Flynn 02:17:55  Yes.

John Coe 02:17:55  Activity.

Rachel Flynn 02:17:58  These are the things about.

Rachel Flynn 02:17:59  Agricultural communities.

Rachel Flynn 02:18:00  That I'm learning.

Rachel Flynn 02:18:01  About. Yeah. I know it makes me wonder. Fairfax had issues because it was a big dairy, area, a lot of dairy farms or till Hazel.

Rachel Flynn 02:18:12  I grew up on one.

Rachel Flynn 02:18:14  Right?

Rachel Flynn 02:18:15  I don't know, there were environmental associations with that.

John Coe 02:18:21  I just don't think of Fairfax County having that much agricultural land. Loudoun, all the counties around it do. not Arlington, obviously, but Prince William and Loudoun and. Phuc yea yea yea all are pretty much agricultural. Heavily.

Rachel Flynn 02:18:41  Yeah.

John Coe 02:18:42  And then across the river in Montgomery County he's about half agricultural.

Rachel Flynn 02:18:46  So it's.

John Coe 02:18:48  Yeah. So it's big but where you are it sounds like that's the predominant culture there. So that's interesting.

Rachel Flynn 02:18:56  It is dominant.

Rachel Flynn 02:18:57  Yeah. It's I mean it's shifting you know more healthcare government and other businesses.

Rachel Flynn 02:19:03  That's good. Yeah.

John Coe 02:19:05  So that's great to hear and thank you. As a female leader, what challenges have you faced in your career? How have you been able to make your voice heard and achieve the success you've had in your career?

Rachel Flynn 02:19:21  you know, we started the conversation with my upbringing and family, and I was just very fortunate. My parents were very good. People just wanted to do what's right in the world.

Rachel Flynn 02:19:32  They're also successful. and they, my mom was a, a very strong feminist when before there was real feminism. And she was really part of that movement in the 70s. And so was my dad. And he, I never I don't think I ever heard a sexist word in our household. I was very lucky. And we were expected to go out in the world and to succeed. You know, we were never told, oh, I don't know about this or that. and I remember in 76, I think it was they made the Susan B Anthony Quinn, remember, it didn't last long because people got it confused with the quarter. Right. So but my dad made me and my three sisters, a pendant. and I couldn't really appreciate it at the time, but I was going through my jewelry box recently and I went, oh, yeah, dad got that made for me. It was so thoughtful. And you don't really think about these things until you're older and you go, wow, I really had a great role model in both of them, and that they gave me these opportunities.

Rachel Flynn 02:20:29  So then when I was at canon in Boston and I wanted to do construction administration. There was a partner there who I really loved, great Irish guy. And he said, yeah, absolutely, you can do it. And then there was another said, well, I don't know, have you ever done it? I'm like, no, I'm 25. How could I have done this? And so, he kind of all right, kind of tolerated it. And I did really, really well. I mean, even the construction company was like, she's totally got this covered. She's doing much better than the guy did. So sometimes I had to push, but I didn't experience, you know, terrible sexism. And part of me, you know, my Irish side, I can go into denial when I need to. So if I see, you know, sexist behavior or someone who's just not there, I just tune it out. I focus on the people, you know. What was it Mr. Rogers said? You want to be with the helpers, look for the helpers.

Rachel Flynn 02:21:26  And so I would look to the men who most were were great. They were fine, they were very supportive and I would just focus on them and be with them and the others, you know, they could do their thing. But I knew, I knew where I wanted to be and I think that makes a big difference. And now I try and pass it forward with younger women and, they a lot of times they'll say, well, what what would you suggest? And I say, have confidence. Just have confidence. Men often have confidence. I mean, they're often put out there, you know a lot with sports. They gotta get out there. They gotta fail in public. They can succeed in public, but they're always putting themselves out there. I said, put yourself out there, get in the game. You're going to fail. It's okay. Have that confidence that and do what you love. That'll make a huge difference because you'll you'll just be so much better at it and you'll enjoy it more.

John Coe 02:22:15  So you mentioned Jerry Falwell early on. Was was that experience, thicken your skin a little bit or not? just out of curiosity.

Rachel Flynn 02:22:26  He was such a controversial character in Lynchburg, and a lot of people just hated him. And so they loved me. And so I have great support and they're like, yeah, take on Jerry. I'm like, well, I'm not doing it just to take on Jerry. But but I just had this big support team behind me and the stuff he was doing just it wasn't right. And so I didn't feel threatened. I think he was hoping that would happen. But what we were asking for was, you know, it was the law number one. And, we, we just needed to carry it out. So I found it more humorous than anything interesting. Yeah, I was kind of flattered.

John Coe 02:23:10  So what were your biggest wins, losses, and most surprising events in your career?

Rachel Flynn 02:23:15  Wins? being hired by Google. I never saw that coming. It was such an honor.

Rachel Flynn 02:23:22  like we talked about, it wasn't quite what I wanted, but no regrets taking the job? None at all. And it was a tough call whether to go or not. I still think about that. But you got to move on and, you know. Sure. so that was a big win. a loss.

John Coe 02:23:42  You know. Setback?

Rachel Flynn 02:23:44  Yeah. Setback. You know, I've been so fortunate, I just.

John Coe 02:23:56  You never had a situation where you just couldn't get something done, and you just got frustrated and said, you know, this is just not worth pursuing, or.

Rachel Flynn 02:24:03  I can't keep going here.

John Coe 02:24:05  None of that.

Rachel Flynn 02:24:06  I would say around transportation, which I obviously know by now, and hearing me talk is a big, big topic for me and very important and taking on VDot and Caltrans and all these, you know, big it's like taking on the Pentagon. I mean, these are very established, powerful entities. And you kind of you got to scale the walls and just find out where you can get in and, and getting them to come around and really see that there's a whole different view of this situation.

Rachel Flynn 02:24:44  maybe I was hesitant to speak of it earlier because now we're starting to make that progress. Maybe if you would ask me this three years ago, I'd say, oh, definitely the dots. I just can't get in there. You know, it's just old school, but it is definitely changing before our eyes. It's really, really rewarding. I think that did and also I think Buttigieg. I think nationally he is saying we need complete streets. We need safer streets. We need to humanize our streets. And when the national figure like him is saying that, I think it is definitely a trickling down. So I keep trying to push up from here, from the ground up. They're coming from on high down, and our board totally gets it. When I talk to our board and we talked about that shift from loss to VMT. Like when can we start? They totally got it. I never thought I'd see that. I thought they'd go what low what? And that. But they hear it all the time from their community and they know it's not working.

Rachel Flynn 02:25:44  It's a broken formula. So that was really rewarding. But yeah, that that has been a challenge. I still think route one is a bit wide. I wish it could have been eight lanes, but I brought it up when I came and they said, you know, we've been at this ten years and if we start over it might show it is our funding and blah, blah, blah. And you got to respect that. I'm like, no, I didn't come here to like blow it up. You know, I just think we could save money and, you know, make it more tenable to unite the two sides. But it'll work out. We're going to work it out in other ways. So.

John Coe 02:26:18  So surprising event might be also the Google call. Right. Was that the. Would you say that was your big surprising event? Or is there another surprise?

Rachel Flynn 02:26:27  That was a surprise to get a text from Google. Like would you like to be an executive? Yeah, that was really fun.

Rachel Flynn 02:26:33  Yeah. And then when I came home, I was working for canon and here in DC and the Georgetown office. I came home one day and there was this long message on my answering machine, remember those? And you could tell how long the message was because the tape had to rewind. Right? And I'm like, well, that's weird. And they said, hi, this is the Harvard Kennedy School. We'd like to tell you, you've been accepted. Oh.

Rachel Flynn 02:26:54  Yes.

Rachel Flynn 02:26:56  I never knew if I could get it in. I applied to three schools and I got in, but I had no idea. I hadn't been in school in, like 15 years. Yeah. So I went high, medium and low and it worked out. It was such an honor. It's exciting. Such an honor. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Coe 02:27:13  so what are your life priorities among family, work and giving back?

Rachel Flynn 02:27:18  So my siblings and I are very close. I think, you know, testament to my parents who really believed in family and staying together and hanging in there, and it was funny.

Rachel Flynn 02:27:30  my brother in law, he was at a retreat, some organization, and you had to stand in a certain part of the room. They'd ask questions, and one question was, about family. And if you're, like, close to the resentments, certain people went over, and he did, too, and they said, okay, how many your family drives you crazy? And if they do, you know, you stay here, and if not, you go there. And he went over and he was the only one. And he said, I love this family. I married into the best family in the world and we're just all we treat each other well. We work hard, we're successful. We've had we're all very different. My oldest sisters lesbian, adopted a little girl of color. She runs a domestic violence shelter that she founded 45 years ago in a little town called Concord, North Carolina, and still has it. I think she has six houses now. It's amazing. Another sister is a professor of economics.

Rachel Flynn 02:28:29  My twin brother is an artist and he used to be a contractor. And then my younger sister is a therapist, social worker, and then my younger brother has a business here in the DC area. Flynn architectural services done quite well for himself. So from social workers to business owners and everyone just, respects and loves that variety. And we're all, pretty much aligned politically, which is nice. You know, I know a lot of families are having the MAGA problem. We don't have that. and we believe I mean, our parents said, you know, you are going to go out, you are going to get in the game and you are going to change the world.

John Coe 02:29:09  Well, your parents background tells me that you're very socially motivated, obviously. Really?

Rachel Flynn 02:29:15  Yeah.

John Coe 02:29:16  Literally. Yeah. and and what about in your. And basically giving back as your work.

Rachel Flynn 02:29:23  Totally. Right. And it is why I picked Jim as a husband public defender. Yeah. I mean, you're protecting. Yeah.

Rachel Flynn 02:29:29  You protect the indigent. So Gideon versus Wainwright, it was a famous Supreme Court case. Gideon was arrested for something. He didn't have a lawyer. And he wrote, I think, to the Supreme Court and said, hey, you should give poor people lawyers if they can go to jail. And they said, okay. And that's how the public defender system was formed. And he's had four capital murder cases. No one's been murdered, or executed. I mean, they all went away for life, but he and I are just so lean. And then he was part of the progressive prosecutor movement that you heard about and about, I don't know, ten got elected five years ago that when he came in, there was a whole group of them from Arlington, Alexandria. Alexandra. So our values are very aligned now. His boys. Very successful businessman, identical twins and a younger one. And when they got out, college, they started a tent company of all things. So, you know, the big wedding tents, they just sold it to a hedge fund.

Rachel Flynn 02:30:31  Now they're multimillionaires. So that's something. Yeah, exactly. Like good one, Jim. Now their father, a public defender and then prosecutor, they have no interest in that. They wanted to build a company, get wealthy, and they did good for them. They run an honest business. They create tons of jobs. They do a beautiful, beautiful job. So they have very high end clients and then you're regular. And so, I've been very fortunate, very supportive husband and great family. That's awesome. Yeah.

John Coe 02:31:00  That's awesome. What advice would you give your 25 year old self today, Rachel?

Rachel Flynn 02:31:06  Like I was saying with younger women have, have more confidence and I've been pretty good. But I think there were times when I could have been better. Do you think your mother.

John Coe 02:31:16  Gave you confidence?

Rachel Flynn 02:31:17  Oh, yeah. She was a very strong woman. Yeah, very.

John Coe 02:31:21  Yeah. That's great. So if you could post a statement on the Capitol Beltway for millions to see, what would it say?

Rachel Flynn 02:31:32  Well, it kind of sounds cliche, but we're all in this together, basically.

Rachel Flynn 02:31:37  Can we take care of each other type of message. And, I think our country would be a very different place if we would just respect one another and take care of each other and that, we're.

John Coe 02:31:54  All in this together. So, Rachel Flynn, thank you very much for a very insightful.

Rachel Flynn 02:31:59  And fun interview. I appreciate it. Thanks, John. Great questions. Really enjoyed this. Thank you.