John Coe 00:00:09  Hi, I'm John Coe and welcome to icons at DC Area Real Estate. A one on one interview show highlighting the backgrounds and career trajectory of leading luminaries in the Washington, DC area real estate market. The purpose of the show is to highlight their backgrounds and their experiences, and some interesting stories about their current business as well as their past, and to cite some things that you might take away both from educational standpoint as well as lessons learned in the industry, and some amusing and sometimes interesting background stories. So I'm hoping that you will enjoy the show. Before I introduce today's guest, I'd like to share a few exciting updates, both this podcast icons of DC area real estate, and the community I founded in 2021. The iconic Journey and Cry are currently part of a nonprofit organization, also called The Iconic Journey in CRE, that was formed in the middle of 2023. Since then, we have secured nine corporate sponsors, including Rappaport, FCP, Bozzuto, JBG Smith, Kettler, Eagle Bank, Cityine Properties, Seyfarth and Lerch, Early and Brewer law firms, as well as six individual sponsors.

John Coe 00:01:37  These contributions have been instrumental in helping us grow the community and expanding our programs. I'm also pleased to announce that as of October 2024, the iconic Journey and Cree membership community has moved to a new platform called Mighty Networks. This community Which connects commercial real estate professionals. Between the ages of 25 and 40 has grown to 65 members and continues to expand. To learn more about this community or if you're interested in joining, please click the link in the show notes of this episode and each episode going forward. Thank you for your continued support and for listening. Thank you for joining me for another episode of icons of DC Area Real Estate. Today my guest for the show is Gary Cohen, who is a third generation member of the Cohen family, which is the founder of Wilco Construction. In this episode, we'll explore the rich history of of Wilco and the evolution of the industry in Washington and Gary's personal and professional growth. The company was founded in 19, in the mid 1960s by Gary's grandfather, William Cohen. Willco Construction began with humble roots.

John Coe 00:02:59  William was a entrepreneur in the trash business and started a company called Capital Trash, which grew to be the region's largest waste disposal company before selling to Waste Management, who came in in the 1970s to acquire it. He took the capital from that sale and parlayed it into various real estate investments. Part of at the time he was in the trash business, he bought a site in downtown Washington for his first development, which is the Vanguard building, built in 1965, and currently it has been converted to a 163 unit apartment building, which we talk about called the L apartments. Gary grew up in the real estate family as a third generation of the family. He gained hands on experience and construction on a couple of sites we talked about, and it laid the foundation for the real estate career. However, his initial thought was to get into education, and he started doing that after going to college at Syracuse and then on to Pace University, but decided to shift into the real estate business up in New York City with Newmark started a property management and construction there.

John Coe 00:04:17  Several years later, his father, Richie, called him and said, come on down and join me here at Washington. So he joined the firm. But he decided instead of becoming part of Willco, the parent company, he formed his own entity for residential development, and he talks about that and started investing in small scale residential into getting into larger projects, but more in the for sale arena and condominium development. Throughout his career, Gary faced many numerous challenges, from difficult contractors who tell stories about that to navigating family dynamics. His father and uncle had a famous dispute many years ago. Yet he merged successful with projects like the one I mentioned earlier, the apartment Complex 163 unit, which I actually toured with our group The Iconic Journey and CRE right before recording this yesterday. so looking to the future, Gary remains optimistic about urban development in Washington. He advocates for innovative solutions to revitalizing the city, emphasizing community engagement and policy. any champions of family, family oriented culture, values, valuing mentorship and continuous learning.

John Coe 00:05:42  His story underscores the importance of family legacy, strategic investments, and adaptability. So without further ado, please enjoy this wide ranging conversation with Gary Cohen. So Gary Cohen, welcome to icons of DC Real Estate. Thank you for joining me today. So you are a third generation of the Cohen family that started Willco Construction in in the 1960s. Perhaps tell the story of your family and Willco's history today. as I told you, I worked with your brother Phil at Ackman Ziff, and we helped your dad finance three office condominium projects in Rockville, Maryland, in the early 2000s.

Gary Cohen 00:06:23  Yeah. No, thanks for having me. So, yeah. So Willco was founded in the early 60s by my grandfather, William Cohen, hence the name Wilco. And he was your, you know, typical Horatio Alger story. He came from nothing. Dropped out of school in seventh grade to support his family, his native American.

John Coe 00:06:46  Is he a US citizen.

Gary Cohen 00:06:47  So he was born in in USA. His mother came from Romania.

Gary Cohen 00:06:52  Okay. And she she they ended up in D.C. via Buffalo, New York and Cleveland. Really? And then. Yeah, I don't know how that whole thing happened, but they made a they made a detour. Okay. And he, his his father died young. He was one of nine brothers. Wow. He had one sister. And his older brother died also. So he became sort of the patriarch of the family. And he happened to be a very large person. He was tall, he was big, he had wide shoulders. So he had to go start working right away. And he went to a trash company. And at the time, well, even today you got to be 16 years old to drive a truck. And he lied about his age. He was only 14, but he looked so long, you know, so big. They hired him and they didn't ask questions about, you know, whether sure, whether, you know, let me see your ID. So he worked for this trash company for many, many years in D.C. and after several years, he basically was like, look, either I'm going to work for this guy for the rest of my life.

Gary Cohen 00:08:06  I'm going to start my own trash company. So he decided, you know what? I'm going to start my own trash company. And he did. And it was called Capital Trash. And he grew it into the.

John Coe 00:08:15  Friends and family that's funded.

Gary Cohen 00:08:17  It. No. You know, he just. No, I he bought one truck. Yeah. And just he had some brothers that ended up working with bootstrapped it. Yeah. And he grew it. And he was a good he was good marketing I think it said on the advertisement they had, you know, 21 trash trucks and they only had four. But it made people think, oh, wow, this is a large trash company. Sure. You know, you can do my house, you can do my office building, you can do. And he just grew and grew and grew, and he ended up becoming the largest waste disposal company in, in the, in the area, in the region, in the region. And it was called Capital Trash.

Gary Cohen 00:08:52  In fact, his offices were down by the third base of National Stadium. Really? That was his office.

John Coe 00:08:59  Wow, isn't that something?

Gary Cohen 00:09:01  Yeah, we actually have seats right on the third baseline. Oh, isn't that cool? Front row for.

John Coe 00:09:05  You're literally right for that reason.

Gary Cohen 00:09:07  Yeah, yeah. When when Lerner did the stadium, my father called him and said, hey, and Lerner knows our history, and he's Richie. We'll make sure you get those is very easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, so so after several years, a gentleman named Wayne Huizenga oh, sure came to D.C. and approached my grandfather and said, hey, I want to buy management. I want to yeah, correct. And he was buying all these local trash companies, obviously, all across the country. Right. And he wrote my grandfather a big check. And you know, That's what I did.

John Coe 00:09:42  Did he not want to sell or did he?

Gary Cohen 00:09:44  I think, you know, I don't know.

Gary Cohen 00:09:48  I'm sure part of it, he did it. But I think at the time it was such a large check. And it's coming from someone who had nothing.

John Coe 00:09:58  He was just in the 1960s.

Gary Cohen 00:10:00  This was in. No, this was, you know, this was this was like in the 50s. He started Wilko in 1962. So he started Wilko after he had all this money. Okay. Right. Interesting. Yeah. And then with that he was able to to, you know, to buy real estate. So it was a large sum of money. I don't know the exact amount and what that translate.

John Coe 00:10:21  So why real estate at the time.

Gary Cohen 00:10:23  That I don't know. I would think that because my grandfather knew that, you know, you can't go wrong with buying land. And he knew that even though DC was a small, sleepy, quote unquote southern town back then, he saw the potential for government and the growth. He's, you know what? One day this is going to be a well.

John Coe 00:10:42  I'm just going to throw some names out. And maybe your your grandfather was friends with the benders, the learners, the, let's say. Well, even the cars, I mean, you know, a lot of people building in that in that era.

Gary Cohen 00:10:55  Yeah, yeah. Smith.

John Coe 00:10:57  But Charles E. Smith right.

Gary Cohen 00:10:59  You know, all those guys he was in that era. His buddies though were the Nick Antonelli okay. The black joggers and the King and Gould's got it. Those were his buds okay. Yeah. He I mean he knew all those guys. But I think those were really the guys that he sort of did a lot of business.

John Coe 00:11:15  Mel Lenkin?

Gary Cohen 00:11:16  You know, I'm not sure. Okay. I think Mel may be a little younger. Okay. I think actually no no no, no, they probably are around the same age because his son is a little older than me, so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know I don't know, but I mean he knew all those guys.

Gary Cohen 00:11:28  But you know those were his, his business partners. Greeny Fisher was he owns the l l his son. And that building right there, 1275 Pennsylvania Avenue. So he had he had those relationships. But anyway. So yeah. So that's kind of how it started.

John Coe 00:11:53  And first.

Gary Cohen 00:11:54  Deal. So the first deal was a plot of land which were which was tenement housing. And I guess the area was very industrial back then. The area, as in what you call today, the Golden Triangle. So you had tenement housing and you also had some livestock running around. Really? Yeah. And across the street was like a scrap metal junkyard.

John Coe 00:12:19  So it's 20th Street.

Gary Cohen 00:12:20  20th and L yeah, yeah. That, that, that, that, that area, the intersection. But it was a residential area so but it also it was like a mix of that and industrial. I also think there was a movie theater down the street as well. But anyway, it was it was quiet. It was a very quiet little area of Washington.

Gary Cohen 00:12:38  So he bought that and, you know, vacated the tenement housing, knocked the tenement housing down. And he signed a lease with the GSA for either Department of Labor or Treasurer or Commerce. I'm not sure. It may have been sort of a hybrid of all three agencies in that one building, but he decided because it was the first high rise, well, the first office building in that part of town. So we call it the Vanguard Building. And it was there for from 1965 up until a few years ago, when we completely was still there. The structure is still there, but it was it was a government basically building because after that they were there for 20 years and then Peace Corps came. They were there for about 25 years. And in between it was the early 90s. It sat vacant for about five years, and my dad just mothballed the building and was just hoping that something would happen.

John Coe 00:13:34  Knowing the history of downtown Washington a little bit, the Bender Building was built about the same time at the corner of Connecticut and L.

John Coe 00:13:40  Yeah, which is about 3 or 4 blocks. Yeah, that's right there. That's right. Early 1960s. Yeah, yeah. So and that's a big that's a really big building. That's I think close to 800,000ft². So I mean so it's it's interesting. Yeah. That's cool. So let's pivot from that. We'll come back to all the properties. And I thought maybe go back into your personal history a little bit if we could. So tell us a little bit about growing up, you know, as a child of a real estate developer and grandson of a real estate developer and in a real estate family? Yeah.

Gary Cohen 00:14:16  I mean, I grew up in Potomac, Maryland. Sure. I went to McLean school, okay. And then I went to field school. And, you know, it was definitely, you know, I mean, it's a great childhood, you know? You know, I'm not going to lie, it was privileged, you know, you know, at the time, we own the Mayflower Hotel.

Gary Cohen 00:14:34  My father sold that a few years ago, but, you know, it was a very. You don't realize it then, but it was, you know, I was I was blessed, I was very lucky. Unfortunately, though, my grandfather did die young. I was only three years old. He died in 1973. But it was great living around here, good friends. I had a lot of opportunities that a lot of people my age didn't have. I got to see a lot of cool things. So, you know, it's a great, great, great.

John Coe 00:15:00  Area to go on jobs with your dad.

Gary Cohen 00:15:02  Yeah. So my father, you know, his background is construction and that's really what he how he learned the business. And he would take me around and to to construction sites, or we would just be driving around D.C. and he would say, see that building area and see that. And he would show me, you know, some of the some of the things that he that he, that he owned.

Gary Cohen 00:15:22  When I turned 16, my first job was construction on it was on School Street in Silver Spring is a small office building, and I worked as a laborer, and I did that for three summers. 1275 Penn When I was about 18 years old that summer, I, I had a jackhammer and I digged up the sidewalk. And it was important for my father, I think, for me to learn sort of that side of the business, because I don't think he wanted me to just learn how to like what it feels like to get your hands dirty. But he wanted me to appreciate what I had and see that side of the world and say, hey, Harry, this is it. This is this. This is the real world right here. These people that you're working with. And of course, he tried to hide the fact that I was his son, but it was. Everyone knew right away. Look at me, you know, so. But everyone was great. And honestly, I have great experiences from when I was a kid and the people that I met, you know, I mean, Pops Callahan, Hambone, I mean, these are the guys that were real, you know, Washingtonian laborers that that that love my father.

Gary Cohen 00:16:32  They love working for Wilco. And they were hard working and they taught me just sort of about, you know, just about just being a good person. About your.

John Coe 00:16:41  Brother Phil.

Gary Cohen 00:16:42  Phil worked there a couple of years, too, in construction. Okay. Yeah. He's, what, two years older Phil is three years. Three years older than me. Four years older than me. Okay. And yes, Phil was always a lot more into the honestly, the finance part of the business. That's what he does. That's what he does. Now. He, he, he was more looked at real estate from sort of dollars and cents while I looked at real estate as creating okay. That's that's what I enjoy. I, I like building, I like creating, I like, you know, having a building sort of reflect a little of who I am and, and sort of have part of my personality sort of be reflected in a building and that that's the part of the business I still like.

Gary Cohen 00:17:25  I like creating. Yeah.

John Coe 00:17:27  That's cool. So you went on to Syracuse? Yeah. Why there? And what did you learn?

Gary Cohen 00:17:33  Well, why there? I got in, okay. I wasn't I was not a good student. I had to work very hard to get average grades. It runs in my family. None of us are that great students. My brother was a good student. Phil was a good student. He takes after my my mother. And, Syracuse was great. It was I wanted I went to always McLane. Small school field, small school. I love sports, you know, I'm a huge.

John Coe 00:18:00  What athlete were you?

Gary Cohen 00:18:01  I was an athlete, I played lacrosse, I played soccer, I played tennis, I played basketball, so I loved it. And I was a huge risk and fan growing up in bullets and capitals. And at the time, the Orioles, because they didn't have a teen yet. Right. And I really wanted to go to rah rah school, but I didn't want to go to a school that was too big.

Gary Cohen 00:18:20  So Syracuse was perfect. It was a rah rah school. And, you know, it's got about 17,000.

John Coe 00:18:26  Great basketball.

Gary Cohen 00:18:27  Here. And it's great basketball. The Carrier Dome and Jim Boeheim. And so that was fun. So Syracuse was a great school for me I enjoyed it. And yeah I still love major in there. I was my major was psychology and my minor was public speaking.

John Coe 00:18:41  Well that's.

Gary Cohen 00:18:41  Interesting. Yeah. My path was not to go into business per se. My path, my always love teaching and coaching. Oh, really? My, my yeah, I got a, I got a master's in education. So yeah I moved to New York, got a, went to Pace University, got a master's in education. I thought I wanted to be a teacher and then like a principal and then, you know, a a in some way shape or form a politician. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. My, my.

John Coe 00:19:11  So you like standing up and presenting? I do, yeah.

Gary Cohen 00:19:15  I enjoy doing that. And I've actually had the opportunity to teach real estate classes in the area because I'm friends with some adjunct professors from GW in Georgetown. And I've gone up and I've done some classes, so I enjoy that part. That's awesome. Yeah.

John Coe 00:19:28  So you were paced. You got your masters then what?

Gary Cohen 00:19:31  What were you? Well, then I realized pretty quickly I didn't want to be a teacher, I think. Why? Why? Yeah. You know, I guess I just I didn't see myself being as passionate about it as I thought I was. And if you want to be successful at really, really anything, you got to. You got to be passionate about it. You want to, you want to want to do it. And you know, I got a, you know, there's a capitalist side of me that, you know, wanted to make some money and I wanted to make.

John Coe 00:20:02  Interfacing with children, I mean, with younger people. Was that.

Gary Cohen 00:20:05  Well, I loved it, I love teaching, I love having a positive influence.

Gary Cohen 00:20:10  And I never let go of that. I still stayed involved in the world of education. I was involved with two charter schools in Washington, D.C. one of them, I was the founding board chair. That's awesome. And I help them with the real estate side. So I, I always kept my hand in it. I always volunteered coach basketball. And then of course, when I had kids, that's all I did. I love coaching my kids and basketball. Football, great. So yeah, I kept it part of my life.

John Coe 00:20:36  Maybe it was patience with, you know, education. You know.

Gary Cohen 00:20:39  What? I think that actually had a lot to do with it. I think I was like, you know, I don't I don't have the patience.

John Coe 00:20:47  Education takes.

Gary Cohen 00:20:48  Patience. Yeah. It does.

John Coe 00:20:51  I think that's probably the one of the top three skills in education, I think.

Gary Cohen 00:20:55  I think you're right. I mean, I think about the great teachers I had growing up, and they were all very patient and they were very like this just very, very, you know, right.

Gary Cohen 00:21:05  Calm and just right.

John Coe 00:21:07  Because they have to put up with a lot. Right?

Gary Cohen 00:21:11  Right. True. Very much so. But I did learn to deal with children and that has helped me in my career because there are a lot of adults out there that are actually children. That's right. There are.

John Coe 00:21:23  Yeah. I mean, our business, real estate takes patience, too.

Gary Cohen 00:21:27  Yeah it does.

John Coe 00:21:28  Clearly. I mean, you don't put up a building in a month. No.

Gary Cohen 00:21:32  You know, that's the hardest part about this business is being a developer. It could take years for it to come to fruition. Decades sometimes and sometimes decades. But it's division. And seeing that vision come to fruition, that makes it fun for me.

John Coe 00:21:49  There you go. Yeah. Okay, well that's cool. So you did start in the real estate industry up in New York with Newmark. So how did that happen?

Gary Cohen 00:21:58  So shortly after the teaching? The short lived teaching career? You know, look, I've always been I've always gravitated towards real estate, for obvious reasons.

Gary Cohen 00:22:08  Sure. So I was so I figured, you know, let me see if I this is what I want to do. Because if I do, I'd rather figure out now than that later I had no experience except for working in construction. But I wasn't going to go be a laborer at, you know, 24, 23 however, all that was. So a good friend of mine's brother was a broker at Newmark. And he said, you know, Gary, go be a broker. You're not going to get paid much. But, you know, you eat what you kill and you learn the business. I can set up an interview for you. So I was like, great. He goes, but make sure you want to be a broker, because I don't want you to go in interview and then realize you don't want to be a broker. So make sure you know what you want to do in real estate, but he can get you in the door. So I thought about it and I called my father.

Gary Cohen 00:22:55  I'm like, so I have an opportunity for an interview, but I want to understand. I got to know what I'm, you know, Gary, do you want to be a broker? Do you want to be a property manager? And my father was like, well, what do you want to do? Like why? I'm like, well, I want to make money. And he started laughing at me and he goes, Gary, you've never been motivated by money. For whatever reason, whether it's because you already had it or because you never needed to or whatever, why you all of a sudden motivated by money? And I was like, oh, that just seems like the right answer. I want to go beat go in real estate so I can make money. And he goes, and he's, you know, you've always been a builder. You've always been creative. You know, since I was a kid, I would buy these advanced Lego sets and and I just that was my. Yeah.

Gary Cohen 00:23:38  And he goes, so why do you want to be a broker? I'm like, okay, it's fine. It's a good point. He said. The summers that you did construction, did you enjoy it? Yes. Why? Because I was building something and I the people, and they go, okay, so why don't you say, why don't you go into that, you know, learn real estate through the sticks in the bricks. So that that resonated with me and, and I told the broker a new market, he goes, you know what. I'm you're not going to interview with me. You're going to interview with someone else who runs our property management and construction division. There you go. I said great. So I went in, I talked with this guy and he knows I had no experience. And he goes, look, you're you got a good resume. You know, you're obviously a, you know, a smart guy. He knew I came from a real estate family. He goes, look, I need an assistant, okay? You're overqualified, but you're going to be my assistant.

Gary Cohen 00:24:31  Not overqualified because of real estate, but overqualified because the things I was going to be doing for him. Right. And I was like, done. I'm in. He goes, you will learn the business, trust me. But you're going to be doing other stuff, too. And that may mean, Gary, go pick up my dry cleaning and. Oh, right. But I was okay with that because, I mean, was that what was I going to do? I wasn't going to start a job in real estate where I had no experience and just expect to start dealing with tenants, right? So the admin part of the job never really happened. I mean, he threw me in there. I mean, I was working, I was going to jobs, I was taking inventory of Appliances at construction jobs. I was looking at plans. He taught me how to read plans. Okay, Gary, how many microwaves count? How many microwaves? Because the subcontractor, the electrician, is saying that he's going to price out 300 microwaves.

Gary Cohen 00:25:27  Well, go on the plans and make sure because he's architects make mistakes a lot. So I really learned how to yeah the detail of it all. But I was enjoying it. I was enjoying it. And then he and then he said, look Gary, we we own the Flatiron Building. Oh yeah. And we're renovating, replacing the elevators for the first time ever. These elevators are hydraulic like. That's how they run like this hydraulic system. We're going to demo it. We're going to put in some.

John Coe 00:25:56  19th century.

Gary Cohen 00:25:56  Building. Yeah. We're going to put in 1990s, you know, technology. And I learned about that. So he really he really liked me and he really wanted me to learn the business. And so it just became a really cool experience. And I did that for a few years. And then and then I decided to move here and and work. Work with my father.

John Coe 00:26:17  So what drove you to come back?

Gary Cohen 00:26:20  Well, it's a little complicated, but, you know, growing up, you know, my brother was the guy.

Gary Cohen 00:26:27  He was the one who was going to be taking over this business. You know, I was going to be a teacher, right? I was going to change the world. I was altruistic, altruistic. I was going to do all Phil was. And, you know, there was a little pressure, you know. Well, Gary, Phil, you know, is not interested. And then it up and it was there was there were some pressure there. But deep down inside I knew that's where ultimately I wanted to end up. So I figured, all right, why don't I just go ahead and do it now? So I that's that's what I did. Plus I love the city. I love urban renewal. I love living in New York. And at the time, Anthony Williams was the mayor of D.C. and what he was doing with D.C., I loved. There was a renaissance going on, and I wanted to be part of.

John Coe 00:27:17  The Verizon.

Gary Cohen 00:27:18  Center creative.

John Coe 00:27:19  Place, the.

Gary Cohen 00:27:20  Pulse of D.C..

Gary Cohen 00:27:22  Sure. So it just it made sense. So that's what I did.

John Coe 00:27:27  So what did you do when you came back to Wilco?

Gary Cohen 00:27:30  Management and construction. Okay. In fact, the first when I moved, when I. When I moved back, it was the late 90s, and my father finally found a tenant for Vanguard Building, i.e. Peace Corps. And he goes, you know, we're hiring Seagull Construction, but, you know, you did some of construction management and you learned it in New York. Why don't why don't you be the owner rep.

John Coe 00:27:59  Had it been vacant a.

Gary Cohen 00:28:00  While, it was vacant for about 5 or 6 years. Wow. It was vacant for a while. At one point, I believe they were talking to Marriott to convert it to a hotel. Yeah.

John Coe 00:28:08  Interesting. Yeah.

Gary Cohen 00:28:09  And then Peace Corps came around and that was just sort of a no brainer. GSA government tenant 20 year lease done. Yeah. And a lot less expensive than converting a building into a hotel.

Gary Cohen 00:28:21  So I was the owner rep. I worked very closely with my father on that. And that was a fun project. I got to know civil construction very well. At the time, the president of. Or the vice president of construction, Ellen Segal. So I didn't know Ellen. I mean, I knew Jerry. Jerry. Yeah, but the person that I really got to know, and this will go back to this later on in the story. The person I really got to know well was at the time, the vice president of construction by the name of Tom McCullough. Okay. And Tom McCullough worked for Jerry for about 20 years. And Tom McCullough and I got to know each other very well during that Project. Okay. And that has a story later on in in this. But anyway, so I did that. I did some management, but quite honestly it wasn't working. It just wasn't working right. It was complicated. What I really wanted to do was I wanted to develop something.

Gary Cohen 00:29:23  I wanted to create something and I wasn't given that opportunity and I just figured, you know what dad, I think, I think I need to go do my own thing. And, he was very, very supportive. And I said, the problem is I have no money.

Speaker 3 00:29:40  So how am I going to do a deal?

Gary Cohen 00:29:43  He goes, Gary, find a deal and we'll figure that money part out later. I said, okay, fine. So I found a deal. 13th and Penn Southeast, which back in the, you know, early 2000 okay, was not a good neighborhood. It was across the street from the Potomac housing. It was before the Harris Teeter got built.

John Coe 00:30:05  Was that Near Eastern Market? It was.

Gary Cohen 00:30:07  It was about 11 blocks south. So closer to the the bridge where you go Souza bridge. Souza bridge. So it's further away?

John Coe 00:30:19  Yeah, it's a parking lot.

Gary Cohen 00:30:21  Not a good neighborhood. You had some drug dealers hanging out there and it was. It was, but I saw this lot.

Gary Cohen 00:30:29  The broker I knew and I stood on the lot when you stay. It was it was, it was. It was on the corner. And you look up Pennsylvania Avenue and there's the Capitol. Like, this has got to work in some way, shape or form. This has to work. So I called the broker up and he goes, Gary, it's yours for a million bucks. So I, you know, I underwrote it and I was like, well, okay, I think, you know, at 300 bucks a foot, meaning selling these condos at 300 bucks a foot, which I thought I could do. I think I can make money. So around that time, Tom McCullough was leaving Siegel Construction because he wanted to do his own thing. Okay. And and I said, hey, Tom, any interest in I don't I can't do this by myself. I, you know, I need a partner and I need someone that knows how to build something. I mean, I didn't know how to be.

Gary Cohen 00:31:23  I wasn't a general contractor. Right? And he goes, Gary, not only am I looking for new third party work, but yeah, I'm looking to be someone's partner. I want to put my own money in it. He's just so I would be very interested. So Tom and I became partners, but we needed to raise more money. So then I went to Harry Moskovitz, which is Jimmy Moskovitz, his son, and a gentleman named John Columbus. And we each put up about.

John Coe 00:31:47  Sounds Greek.

Gary Cohen 00:31:48  Very Greek and Irish, Tom's Irish. So we went ahead and we all put in about 75 grand. My father lent me the money. He thought I was crazy. Like he was waiting for me to fall on my face. And he goes. Because. Not in a bad way. It's just 30th and Penn Southeast. Yeah. Was not a good neighborhood. He thought I was crazy, and I convinced him that. That you will not lose money, that you will not lose money.

Gary Cohen 00:32:18  And he said, okay, okay, write me the check. and two years later, we turned $300,000 into $2.3 million. We made $2 million in that deal. What did you develop there? We developed 12 duplex condos. Got it. And at the time, we sold them for 500 bucks a foot. And it was a record.

John Coe 00:32:41  It was a record in that location.

Gary Cohen 00:32:43  In that location. And people were shocked. Now I knew we had to separate ourselves from the competition. Right. So I was thinking, you know, DC does not have real lofty type of space. I lived in New York and New York, So I told the architect, this is what I want. Go crazy. Of course. McCullough. Tom and him fought all the time about, you know, value engineering versus what I wanted versus what it ended up working out. And 15 foot ceiling heights, huge floor to ceiling windows that that that wasn't a thing in D.C. back then. And people fell in love with it, and they paid for it.

John Coe 00:33:20  Isn't that something?

Gary Cohen 00:33:21  Yeah. And I remember showing.

John Coe 00:33:23  Him that's.

Gary Cohen 00:33:24  Exciting. I remember showing him the at the end of the day, how much money I made. And he almost fell over. Yeah. Yeah.

John Coe 00:33:32  That's great. Yeah. So after.

Gary Cohen 00:33:35  That. So after that, Tom McCullough and I built about 3 or 4 more projects together. We built Jefferson Row, which was 23 condos, and DuPont Circle across the street from palm. We build eight condos in Shaw on 11th Street. And we had a deal out in Petworth. We did with the with Donatelli and then and then condos.

John Coe 00:33:53  All for sale.

Gary Cohen 00:33:54  All off. Simple. All for sale condos.

John Coe 00:33:57  Why not rental?

Gary Cohen 00:33:58  You know, in retrospect, that's what I should have done.

John Coe 00:34:04  Because we'd have.

Gary Cohen 00:34:05  Well, when I drive around the city now and I'm like, God, if I still own that, that would be great. Yeah. So. But, hey, you know, I didn't know. And no one told me, right? So.

Gary Cohen 00:34:16  Well, your dad.

John Coe 00:34:16  Did a lot of for sale stuff to houses. Yeah, yeah, that was kind of the. That's how.

Gary Cohen 00:34:21  He started.

John Coe 00:34:22  That was kind of the family thing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Most of the long term ownership properties were commercial, which you own. Right. You didn't own that many residential non rentals.

Gary Cohen 00:34:32  Barely. We had a motel in Wheaton. Yeah. But no we didn't really own any apartments. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

John Coe 00:34:39  That's interesting. Yeah. It's unlike a lot of the other big families. Most of them started with apartments growing. Charlie Smith and all those were, you know, the family.

Gary Cohen 00:34:50  Yeah.

John Coe 00:34:50  Yeah.

Gary Cohen 00:34:51  Yeah, very.

John Coe 00:34:51  Much started with apartments. Yeah. That's interesting. Okay, so that partnership with McCullough was Wilko residential.

Gary Cohen 00:34:59  Was a local residential.

John Coe 00:35:00  Okay. So so let's see. So did you how long did that entity keep going? I mean, is it still going.

Gary Cohen 00:35:09  To be still going. It's just not as active.

Gary Cohen 00:35:11  I finally got smart and decided not to buy property and sell it, but to buy property and hold on to it. So I own a few rental units. Not not a huge portfolio, but now I try to. That's what I like to do. I like to own. It's it's it's a pain, you know, it's not easy. It's not it's not glamorous. It's not sexy. But it's a great investment. And I plan on holding on to them as long as I possibly can.

John Coe 00:35:37  So at some point you decided to to come back home to the parents. So what, what made that decision and what, what drove that, that conversation you know.

Gary Cohen 00:35:50  You know. So you know, it just it like things happen organically, right? Sure. Sometimes. You know, my brother moved to California. You know, my father had Jason here and and that didn't work out. He was getting older. I was actually at the time, I was actually going through a divorce, and I was sort of at a crossroads as well.

Gary Cohen 00:36:13  I was just, you know, we my our relationship was got closer than ever because we weren't working together. And he approached me, you know, at one of our breakfasts that we would have and he would say, you know, you think about coming back. And I was like, I don't think that's a good idea. You know, I dad. But after everything we've been through and we everything's good now and our, our relationship is good. And, you know, I don't think it's a good idea. I think I just need to continue doing my own thing, and and you do your thing. But after a while, I felt like I really, really wanted to, you know, and I felt it was almost like not incumbent upon me, but a responsibility. You know, one thing that Adam Bernstein once told me that I really said, you know, Gary, when I was in my early 30s and I could be getting I may be butchering the story a little. So forgive me, Adam, if I'm if I'm butchering the story a little.

Gary Cohen 00:37:18  But he told me that, you know, his father, Stuart, wanted to make Adam president. Said, Adam, you're going to be president, and you're moving into my office. And Adam was like, dad, I'm. I'm only 30. I, you know, thank you for the president title. Okay? But I'm not moving into your office. That that's your office? That was Leo's office. His dad's? Yeah. I'm not moving that office. And he goes, dad, maybe in ten years we'll have this conversation. And Stuart sat Adam down and said, Adam, let me tell you something. You see this office? They see everything around us. The real estate, all this, this office. And what all this is is bigger than us. This is bigger than me. This is bigger than you. This is bigger than Leo. This is. This is family. This is our legacy, right? It's the.

John Coe 00:38:05  Company.

Gary Cohen 00:38:06  So I thought that was a really cool story.

Gary Cohen 00:38:09  And I thought of that. And I was like, you know, interesting. Yeah. This is bigger than me. Legacy. Yeah. Legacy.

John Coe 00:38:16  So Wilco's portfolio has evolved over the years with assets and several asset classes, including office, retail, industrial and residential. In past years, Wilco has developed for for sale office and residential condominiums and income producing projects as well. Have you refined your strategy regarding product type, development and investment term?

Gary Cohen 00:38:39  So have we refine our strategy? No. You know, here's the one thing we are. We're very local and we're under the radar. And I think that's what we're good at. You know, we we like to go after projects that are, you know, too, too big for the small guys. But but but too small for the big boys. Right. And yes, we've been around and we have a nice portfolio. And, you know, people consider us, you know, one of the big boys and all that. But one of the reasons we got there is because we go after the singles, you know, we just bought a great shopping center in Kensington, you know, and across the street we bought.

John Coe 00:39:23  I live a less than a mile from there.

Gary Cohen 00:39:25  Great little shopping center across the street.

John Coe 00:39:28  Right.

Gary Cohen 00:39:28  Now. Johnson, Johnson, Johnson Johnson's okay. Across the street we bought a 46 unit, you know, garden style apartment building. There's a great long term. Yeah. Buys you know we we love industrial. The majority of our portfolio right now is industrial. So here in Montgomery County and Montgomery County, mostly, yeah, we have some in Virginia, but most of Montgomery County. So we like to that's our strategy. Just stay nimble and stay focused and just continue to be the best local experts out there.

John Coe 00:40:05  That's interesting. So I mean that property in Kensington is not even 50,000ft² is it.

Gary Cohen 00:40:11  No it's just a little under.

John Coe 00:40:13  Yeah. It's pretty small.

Gary Cohen 00:40:14  Yeah. But you know what? When we bought it, the rents were 12 bucks a foot and on renewals will get north of 20 bucks a foot. So we're adding value.

John Coe 00:40:24  Barbara was there. Barbara.

Gary Cohen 00:40:26  And the antique stuff.

Gary Cohen 00:40:27  We just combined both those spaces and put a Carmen's in. Behind there we opened up a brewery which is very, very good at your deal. That's our deal.

John Coe 00:40:37  Yeah. I love that place.

Gary Cohen 00:40:38  Yeah. Baby cat. Yes.

John Coe 00:40:39  Yeah. It's fun. It's great. It's an interesting idea. You know, you couldn't do much else with that space. No, I didn't realize it was back there until I read about. I said, really?

Gary Cohen 00:40:51  Yeah. That's that's how you. That's that. Those are the little parking.

John Coe 00:40:55  Is an interesting.

Gary Cohen 00:40:56  Parking is a challenge. But we're we're working on ways to make that less challenging.

John Coe 00:41:02  I didn't realize until you guys, until I read that you guys own that. That's fascinating. So that's kind of cool. So there really isn't a, you know, written, you know, we're going to pursue this size deal and this location. And it's just kind of you look at opportunities as they come basically. Yeah.

Gary Cohen 00:41:18  And that's not to say that we'll have a little more of a sort of, focus.

Gary Cohen 00:41:25  You know, I don't know what you want to call it business plan or strategy in the future, but this just seems to work for us.

John Coe 00:41:35  Okay. One of the largest land positions you have is just north of Pike and Rose in Rockville called Rose village. Talk about that project and how it's evolved, because I know there's been a lot of things written about it where you got amazing density and then you reduced it. So talk a little bit about that project and how long your family's owned it, and what's the overall thought process been over the years with it?

Gary Cohen 00:41:59  So that's another legacy asset. My grandfather bought that when it was a farm. Really. Yeah. And it's it's it's been, you know, over the years. We my father built several office buildings for NIH. They were the huge they were the main tenant there. It was it was it was actually one of their main campuses for, for for NIH for many, many, many years. And obviously everything that's going on in the office building world, we had to pivot and figure, okay, you know, we're not going to be renewing the government again for another 20.

Gary Cohen 00:42:30  You know, we're not going to be signing a 20 year lease at a 20 year leases anymore. So what are we going to do with this? And, we decided to, you know, let's let's, let's, let's build a community or right next to Pike in rows, let's build housing, let's build apartments, and let's do some retail. So we got it approved several years ago for about little north of 2,000,000ft². I believe the original approval was about close to 1900 units and about 35,000ft² of retail and a big park in the middle. And then that became too expensive to build. No one was going to. It wasn't. It didn't work. You couldn't get it underwritten. So we had a pivot again. And this pivot is now where we're going to get about half or 20. Well, yeah, about half of the apartments will be affordable. And working with the county, working with the state of Maryland, try to get some funding from them. And we're going to fill a need in Montgomery County.

Gary Cohen 00:43:35  You know that missing middle for the cops and the teachers and the firemen and have a place for them to to live and work.

John Coe 00:43:42  Well, your basis is pretty low there, so you can still make money.

Gary Cohen 00:43:46  Our basis of that is very low. And again, this is a ten year project. So that the affordable housing component is phase one. You know hopefully eventually the market comes back a little and then we can do the rest of the market. But it's a way for us to put a shovel on the ground and get started and fill a need and make money.

John Coe 00:44:06  Well, it's also good public relations for your company. So yeah, over long term to do have more flexibility on things. Correct.

Gary Cohen 00:44:15  And also you know this Rose village is has been my father's baby you know. And he Montgomery County has been very good to him. And I think this is also his way of giving back and part of his legacy. Well that's cool.

John Coe 00:44:29  So when do you plan to break ground there? Do you think.

Gary Cohen 00:44:31  That's a good question? Yeah. Hopefully in the next couple of years.

John Coe 00:44:35  So physically, as I remember now, of course, I, I've lived in Washington now almost 40 years. So it was a toys R us anchored shopping center, then corvettes, and then there was a bus yard that the Montgomery County had just north of that. So was your site kind of to the west of that bus yard? Is that where it is exactly?

Gary Cohen 00:45:00  Well, where is it? So toys R us is where? Pike and roses. That's right. We're directly behind it. So remember old, old Georgetown Road. Yes. We're on the other side of that. Okay. 20 acres from there down to where the Jewish Federation is on the other side. Got it. So Executive Boulevard, Montrose Road, or in between.

John Coe 00:45:20  I see. Okay. Got it. All right. So what's there now?

Gary Cohen 00:45:27  Right now we have three buildings that are standing there. One is mothballed. We're going to demo.

John Coe 00:45:33  It's an office building.

Gary Cohen 00:45:34  It's an office building. We have 6000. That's 6000. Seven Executive Boulevard. Got it. 6003 Executive Boulevard. We have about two years left on the last tenant in there. We'll end up knocking that down. And then we have another 15 years left with NIH 6001 Executive Boulevard, which is that's not going anywhere. That'll remain an office building. Yeah.

John Coe 00:45:55  Yeah. My orthopedic doctor, I think is one of those buildings. Okay. At one point.

Gary Cohen 00:46:00  Okay. Yeah.

John Coe 00:46:00  Yeah, yeah. Because it was one of them was a medical.

Gary Cohen 00:46:02  Medical. Yeah. That's I remember yeah I think that was 6011.

John Coe 00:46:06  No. Did your dad developed those buildings.

Gary Cohen 00:46:08  He did. Yeah. He did okay. Yeah.

John Coe 00:46:12  Those are what, 1970s.

Gary Cohen 00:46:13  80s 70s and 80s. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

John Coe 00:46:16  That whole Executive Boulevard area was about that same era.

Gary Cohen 00:46:20  Well, we used to own most of it. And then over the years, my, you know, my father sold it off, but still.

Gary Cohen 00:46:27  But we still owned.

John Coe 00:46:28  So that dirt was all assembled when it was built. Those were built, yeah. Back then. Okay, well that's interesting. Okay. Your company's first investment we talked a little bit about earlier was the Vanguard building downtown. And then you had 1275 pen. How did that 1275 Penn enter the equation? When did that get developed and how do family get involved in that project?

Gary Cohen 00:46:51  So my grandfather bought it and I you know, I feel like he bought that in the mid 60s.

John Coe 00:47:00  So pack it started at that point because I think President Kennedy, when he when he came into office, he looked at Pennsylvania and said, we got to do something about this. And I think that's when it happened.

Gary Cohen 00:47:11  Pennsylvania Avenue Development Corporation.

John Coe 00:47:13  It happened either early in the Johnson administration or in the Kennedy administration in the 1960s. Right.

Gary Cohen 00:47:19  It's around that time. I don't know the exact date, but he yeah, he bought that with a gentleman named Greenie Fisher. It was one of his old friends and partners.

Gary Cohen 00:47:30  what.

John Coe 00:47:31  Was it before there.

Gary Cohen 00:47:31  Was a I. You know what I think it was always office was. Yeah, but I don't remember the tenant mix. But what I do remember is in the mid 80s, my father signed a large lease with Sutherland as Bill and Brennan to take the whole building. And he did a major renovation, which is what it looks like now. And for two summers I worked in that building.

John Coe 00:48:03  I the Sutherland's still there.

Gary Cohen 00:48:04  No no no no no they're gone. Covington and Burling and Southern as well. And Brennan I'm sorry both of those sorry pretty good Covington and Burling and Sutherland asylum. Brennan both had the whole building. Yeah. Now they're gone. It's mixed. Now it's a mix.

John Coe 00:48:21  More tenants, more tenants.

Gary Cohen 00:48:23  Multi-tenant building. Yeah.

John Coe 00:48:25  And that's a family legacy. You're going to keep it. You're not going to sell that building. Okay? Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And that's not a renovation down the road potentially.

Gary Cohen 00:48:34  Well, you know, never say never.

Gary Cohen 00:48:37  But don't tell my father that I think it would be a great apartment building one day, but hey, that's for another time.

John Coe 00:48:46  Well, I think you know what's interesting about that whole quarter. Yeah, is what happens, I think what the FBI redevelopment, if it ever happens, we'll drive what happens to the rest of Pennsylvania because of the scale of that project? It'll be so big. Yeah. And and it'll be mixed use. You're sure? I'm sure that. And probably predominantly residential.

Gary Cohen 00:49:09  Yeah.

John Coe 00:49:10  So that'll change the whole nature of Pennsylvania Avenue in my view. I agree it's going to take a catalyst like that to do that I would think.

Gary Cohen 00:49:17  I agree with you. Yeah. I think the city in general, the whole landscape of it is, is is changing. You know, no question because of what's going on in the world. And I think it's going to become a lot more of a livable city where you're going to have a lot more people actually living here.

John Coe 00:49:35  Well, it's interesting, I my last interview was with Oliver Car, and so we talked about Southwest Washington a little bit.

John Coe 00:49:43  I don't know if your family has investments down there or not, but that's a federal, predominantly federal landscape down there. And, you know, he said that basically. Josh Bernstein said that they should the federal government, the city, and, you know, GSA, Congress, everybody should sit down and figure out what are we going to do with all these antiquated buildings and start redeveloping and do a big RFP and maybe get the city involved? It'd be great to have the city basically take over that land, and that would put a lot of buildings on the tax rolls for the city. So I think, I think it's a win win win for everybody. It's just going to take a lot of engineering ingenuity and energy by people to get it done. But to me, if you walk down there, you know, near the Smithsonian and then go head down towards the wharf. It's not safe, even just not a comfortable environment. And it needs it. That's my way.

Gary Cohen 00:50:43  No, I, I don't disagree with you.

John Coe 00:50:45  Yeah, I'm hoping there's enough, you know, behind it. I mean, the plaza just was foreclosed on for 25% of the loan, which is.

Gary Cohen 00:50:53  Crazy, I know. Yeah, I know.

John Coe 00:50:57  so hopefully something will happen. So any other projects you want to talk about are things that you guys are doing that you want to bring up, that you think are worth listening to or talking about?

Gary Cohen 00:51:08  Well, we've just finished the L, which was a big.

John Coe 00:51:11  Project, of course.

Gary Cohen 00:51:12  Yeah.

John Coe 00:51:13  Talk about that.

Gary Cohen 00:51:13  That was a success. 163 units, 8000ft² of retail.

John Coe 00:51:19  What was the decision making going into that process?

Gary Cohen 00:51:22  So we initially we were going to do a class A super B office building, which was aimed at about like 65 bucks a foot.

John Coe 00:51:31  When did the Peace Corps lease expire?

Gary Cohen 00:51:33  2018.

John Coe 00:51:35  So okay, so that's when your decision made. Right?

Gary Cohen 00:51:39  Well, we were thinking about it beforehand, of course, but we were preparing to try to find a tenant to take at least half the building.

Gary Cohen 00:51:47  So then we could because obviously we weren't going to do spec and and this is even before Covid, the office market was sort of heading down. Oh, we couldn't find anything.

John Coe 00:51:56  Sequestration was the big tipping point for Washington. Yeah about 2013. Yeah.

Gary Cohen 00:52:01  So yeah. Right. So I just think that Covid you know expedited all that. But it was already headed no doubt it was already heading in a bad bad place. So you know my background is residential and you know, me and my father and his partner thought, you know, his partner, Steve Fisher, by the way, thought, you know, let's pivot and let's see if this thing can be a good apartment building. You know, why not? So we we did all the research, and it sort of checked all the boxes for signs of light and air. I wasn't post tension. The column spacing was good. The floor plates were good.

John Coe 00:52:40  What's the floor plate on that?

Gary Cohen 00:52:41  About 23,000ft². 24,000ft². Okay, the window lines were good.

Gary Cohen 00:52:47  The location is great. And even though that took convincing, people thought we were crazy because it's the Golden Triangle. No one lives in the Golden Triangle. I'm like, yeah, but guys, the West End is three blocks away. DuPont circle is right here. Foggy bottom is right here. So it took a while to convince the lenders to give us money. But but you know, obviously they came around, took the city a while to to understand it as well. But So. Yeah. So we, we we hired McCullough construction as a third party GC to, to do the renovation. And you know it's turned out great. We're 65% leased. That's great. Yeah. We're getting north of five bucks a foot. We secured a restaurant tenant for the retail 8000ft² restaurant tenant called Moxie's or based out of Canada. So we're we're excited and happy on how I saw.

John Coe 00:53:40  That was managing it. And how did they help you?

Gary Cohen 00:53:43  Oh my God, they were with us from day one. They helped us figure out our demographic.

Gary Cohen 00:53:48  They help us figure out the amenity package size of the units. They they really helped us. They were they were tremendous. You know, they this is their world. I mean, I know multifamily, but not to this level. This is you know, this isn't a urban infill boutique condo building, you know, in shawl. This is a whole different ballgame. And and having someone like Mizuno help us was was tremendous.

John Coe 00:54:12  So how did that process happen with choosing to do that?

Gary Cohen 00:54:17  Well, we knew that if we were going to do this, we needed all the bells and whistles. We needed the class A, we needed north of four bucks a foot. We ended up getting north of five. So okay, that ended up working out well, but we were going to do it. We're going to do it right. And we had to have an experience. And you know, it was just a natural choice. Plus my father knew Thomas. You know, he and I both met with Thomas, you know, actually on Rose village several years back.

Gary Cohen 00:54:43  I really liked him. I knew some guys in the office who run development, this gentleman named Mike Shanahan. So we were familiar with Bazardo. We like their culture. We like their principles, you know, so it was just it was natural. And it's been a great relationship. That's great. Yeah.

John Coe 00:55:03  That's great. So okay. Are you looking at other residential development now since you had that good experience there? I mean of that scale, you know.

Gary Cohen 00:55:13  Yes. But it's so hard right now to find a deal where I can duplicate that just because of, you know, land costs. it's it's hard to find.

John Coe 00:55:25  So you're watching the rent roll at 1275 Penn to see when those tenants expire. Yeah. Exactly.

Gary Cohen 00:55:31  And you can we actually have. Right, right, right. But we actually have a building an I street 1722 High Street. Oh. Which the VA another government tenant their leases expires in two years. And that's.

John Coe 00:55:42  Infill though.

Gary Cohen 00:55:43  That's that's blocked well and that's why it's that won't work for residential.

Gary Cohen 00:55:49  We tried in the hotel maybe, but we're looking at the possibility of converting it to a hotel. So we're in the very beginning stages of trying to figure that out. So we'll see.

John Coe 00:56:01  Yeah I know that block. Yeah. Yeah that's that's tough.

Gary Cohen 00:56:05  It's a tough block.

John Coe 00:56:06  Yeah. It's it's long and narrow right. Yeah. Yeah And you don't want any window line in the front. In the back is an alley, right? Yeah. And there's probably nothing on the side.

Gary Cohen 00:56:16  Well, it's actually three sides okay. Right. But it is right up against the another building. So. But in the alley is narrow.

John Coe 00:56:24  Yeah. I worked on one like that on Connecticut Avenue for a while. It's hard. Yeah. It's in those mid black buildings. So the Boston real estate market was hampered by the pandemic with long range implications. However, it appears that we are nearing the bottom of the market. How do you see opportunities going forward? That's part of what we just talked about.

John Coe 00:56:48  Will you remain the D.C. area centric or consider exploring other markets?

Gary Cohen 00:56:52  Going back to what I said before, you know, we're we're local and that's that's that's the advantage we have. So I think that we're going to stay DC centric in terms of DC proper. You know, I'm I remain bullish on it. I still think that, you know, even though what's going on with, you know, the federal government downsizing and and people not coming into the office as much. I'm a firm believer of the city dweller and the urban vibe. And people want to live in cities. People want to be in cities. You just have to give them a reason to come. So I think that we have to be creative. I'm working with the Golden Triangle Bid. I'm working with the Federal City Council and with many other developers, Oliver Carr included. We're you know, we're trying to figure out creative ways. How do we how do we pivot the new world that we live in? You know, we have all these beautiful alleys in D.C..

Gary Cohen 00:57:51  Okay, let's activate them. Let's activate these alleys. Let's make that a destination. Maybe we need to modify some of the zoning. Maybe we need to modify some of the building codes. How about.

John Coe 00:58:01  Farragut Square and some of the parks to.

Gary Cohen 00:58:05  That to too. We have these beautiful parks. How do we activate those parks to make it more of an attraction? What they're doing with the National Geographic building. That's great. You know. So, okay, we got to, you know, I mean, we are Washington, D.C., we are the capital of the world.

John Coe 00:58:22  Be nice to be like Paris, wouldn't it?

Gary Cohen 00:58:24  Well, we weren't. That was the intent, wasn't it?

John Coe 00:58:26  That was the.

Gary Cohen 00:58:28  It was the intent.

John Coe 00:58:29  When I laid it out.

Gary Cohen 00:58:30  Yeah. So I'm still bullish on the long term, success of D.C..

John Coe 00:58:38  That's great. Wilco's been a.

Gary Cohen 00:58:41  Fan. And one more thing.

John Coe 00:58:42  Go ahead.

Gary Cohen 00:58:43  Building height.

John Coe 00:58:44  I mean, the height to me.

Gary Cohen 00:58:45  To me, that's a no brainer, but unfortunately, it literally takes an act of Congress.

Gary Cohen 00:58:49  That's the only thing we have against us, along with parks, too, right? It takes an act of Congress, but I just feel like there's going to be a point where common sense will kick in, take a 2030 block radius around the around the mall and can't touch it. Okay. But as you get further up northwest and northeast and southeast and southwest and the east of the river, you start building, you could start, you know, increasing the height. You know, why not on Connecticut Avenue, Chevy Chase, DC? Why not be able to go ahead and build another ten stories? Okay.

John Coe 00:59:22  So we had a change in administration. Yeah. Coming in January. Right. We also have a change in Congress coming. So to me, an idea like that. Right. Based on who's coming in. It'd be an interesting time to make that pitch.

Gary Cohen 00:59:41  100% agree.

John Coe 00:59:42  Don't you think?

Gary Cohen 00:59:43  100%.

John Coe 00:59:45  The question is, would the district government, you know, and some of the historical preservationists around town be willing to acquiesce to that? Or would you just have, you know, continual throw down? So, for instance, there was an article two weeks ago in the I think it was in the Washington and post about brutalist buildings in the city, and several of them are now designated as historically historic landmarks.

John Coe 01:00:12  The Hubert Humphrey Building, which is the HHS headquarters. I mean, these are some of the ugliest structures you can possibly think of. And they're historically designated. Now, how does that. You know, it just doesn't make any sense from a you know, it's not only ugly, but they're they're not physically. Well you know, accommodative.

Gary Cohen 01:00:36  I agree there's a there's a balance of that. But there's also you know, there's businessmen and women should be part of those decisions. And otherwise you're not going to nothing's going to change.

John Coe 01:00:55  Has to be practical. Yeah. Yeah. So that's you know.

Gary Cohen 01:01:00  It's a challenge.

John Coe 01:01:01  It'll be nothing.

Gary Cohen 01:01:02  It's going to be easy.

John Coe 01:01:03  But I think the current administration. The new administration, plus the Congress, the way it's going to part of that is moving people out of Washington. And yeah, so that's part of the thought process. You know, why the agencies need to be here right now with work from home. Right. And the government don't come.

John Coe 01:01:20  They don't come in. So okay. Why can't Wyoming have you know.

Gary Cohen 01:01:24  Yeah, I'm okay.

John Coe 01:01:25  By the way.

Gary Cohen 01:01:25  I'm okay with that. D.C. will still be okay. It's still a great city, so it'll be.

John Coe 01:01:31  Going.

Gary Cohen 01:01:31  Anywhere, correct? The white House isn't going anywhere now.

John Coe 01:01:35  So Supreme Court won't go, right?

Gary Cohen 01:01:38  So. Okay. It'll actually, I think it'll maybe make it even more of a,

John Coe 01:01:42  Well, it could just clear the deck for what we talked about earlier. Right? Right. Correct. Does that make sense?

Gary Cohen 01:01:49  Absolutely.

John Coe 01:01:50  Because then it becomes a more livable city. Right? So, you know, I know when I messed with Ali, he. Oliver was extremely optimistic about the next 5 to 10 years in the city, which is great. I mean, we just need that kind of thought process going forward. There was, you know, I'd like to think that we won't be as contentious going forward.

Gary Cohen 01:02:11  I hope so.

John Coe 01:02:12  Yeah, I agree that's the plan.

John Coe 01:02:15  Wilco has been a family company for 60 plus years now, and you developed a mission statement with a defined corporate culture and values as a company.

Gary Cohen 01:02:26  Honestly, it's just it's family. The one thing my father has done, the many things that he's done very well is instill a culture of family. Every the average, employment in this company is like 12 to 17 years. People come here and they stay as they. We treat them like family. And I think that's been an ingredient for our success. You know we've had some others that have common trying to. Who ran Wilko before me? Who tried to get out of. Try to go away from that and make us more of a corporate corporate. I mean, I knew from day one. Good luck with that, because I know my father. There's no way that would happen, because that's not him. That's not us, that's not Wilco. That's not who we are. So it's it's it's really it's it's it's it's it's a family. It's a culture of family.

Gary Cohen 01:03:24  And, you know, just just. You know, making everyone feel that, you know, they are a part of Tulsa Unified, Pennsylvania. They are a part of 1722 High Street. They're part of the industrial properties that we own at the airport and the retail properties on Neville Street. They are part of it. It's part of the family.

John Coe 01:03:45  Well, you mentioned a couple other families earlier that I want to talk about it from a comparative standpoint. One is Barstow who've I've interviewed both Toby and Tom And another is Folger Pratt, who sits, you know, literally less than a mile from where we are sitting right now in their office, and they're parked just next door. Both kind of evolved similarly in some respects to yours. There's a construction theme through all three companies, to some extent does its own. So does Folger Pratt. And then they just sold their construction company last year to Clarke, which is interesting. Yeah. Yeah. and.

Gary Cohen 01:04:22  Their management, they gave everything to the zero.

Gary Cohen 01:04:24  Yeah.

John Coe 01:04:25  Yeah it's interesting, but they both it's interesting. They talked about it sent, you know, the next generation up to Harvard to this, you know, family generational thing. And you mentioned earlier before we got on about a conference that you just participated with family businesses. What do you think about kind of this legacy family business thought process and how to manage that going forward? You know, they spend an awful lot of time doing I don't know if you've had a chance to talk to Cameron and I have and Toby about it.

Gary Cohen 01:04:56  You know that. Toby. I've talked to camera about it. Yeah, yeah. No, I know he he did this program at Harvard, right and. Right. Yeah, I know he told me all about it. Yeah. It's complicated, the whole family dynamic. But, you know, everyone has to want to make it work. Otherwise it's not going to work. At the end of the day, everyone has to want to make it work. So and it's, it's it's still a process.

Gary Cohen 01:05:19  It's ever evolving. We we did little we did things like that in the past. We we didn't go to, you know, a program like a Harvard. But we've had people come in and consultants to help us with transitions and, and figure all that out. And, you know, quite frankly, they didn't really work, you know, so you got to, you know, you have to understand what you have. You have to understand the personalities involved, and you have to work within that domain. And if you don't appreciate or understand that and you are continually fighting against that, well, then you're not going to get anywhere. So, you know, I don't know if they answered your question or not, but it's an evolving process. It's hard work every day. It's hard, hard work, you know, but it's not. You know, one thing I've learned is, you know, people don't change the only thing, and you can't control people. The only thing you can change and control is, is yourself and how you react to other people.

Gary Cohen 01:06:29  And that's a valuable lesson that I've learned. Yeah.

John Coe 01:06:33  So you accept what there is and, you know, let other people make their own decisions accordingly and work around that basically to some extent. Right? Correct. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Relationships are key to our industry. Other than family and colleagues, who has influenced you the most in your career, from either the public or private sectors?

Gary Cohen 01:07:01  I mean, you know, you know, the I guess, yeah. I mean, Tom McCollough was a partner of mine, right? He had a lot to do with my growth. He taught me a lot. But I also sort of have seeked out other mentors out there. Marvin Jr. Yeah. He's he's he's tough and he's different. But he's one of the smartest developers have a.

John Coe 01:07:24  Story about.

Gary Cohen 01:07:25  Marvin. Yeah. So do I. When Tom and I bought Jefferson Row Marvin was a tenant, so I had to negotiate with him. And he and I became friends. And we still are to this day.

Gary Cohen 01:07:37  If you.

John Coe 01:07:38  See him, tell him that John said, I say hello. All right. I'm going to indulge for a moment. Yeah. Please tell my story with Marvin. Shower. Yeah. So I approached him and I can't remember exactly how I did, but, to finance two of his buildings, so I quoted. So the first building that I looked at with him was 13th and U Street Northwest, which is on top of Metro. The African American Museum was there, and so we went down the road. I had an application and we were negotiating that. And then you just said, you know, John, I think I'm going to leave it with the bank. And he assembled that whole U Street block, actually, and we went over to the famous Benz Chili Bowl for lunch. And, you know, I got to know Marvin pretty well and it's good. So I said, okay, I get it. But he said, John, I got another deal I want to talk to you about.

John Coe 01:08:35  So he had the land on top of the courthouse Metro in Arlington. Oh yeah.

Gary Cohen 01:08:40  We used to manage that, which he developed.

John Coe 01:08:42  Yeah. The site complicated project. and he said, I became somewhat of an expert in building on top of Metro, and this was the third one he had done, because he had done another one in southeast Washington, another metro station where there was a building. I think it was a government D.C. government building on top of it. I didn't look at that one. So we were we hit another with a different lender. I had an application all negotiated, ready to go. I mean, it was it was signature ready. And so I went into his office thinking that I was going to pick up an app and get a check from him for the, you know, for the, you know, deposit. He looked at me in the eye and said, you know, John, the bank has just come back to me with something that. But I'll tell you what, because you've been so good to me.

John Coe 01:09:30  I'm going to write you a check. You know, how should I make this out to for ten grand right here? And I said, oh, my God, you know, this is this is not contractual. This is more or less a gift. And so I said, make it out to my company. Which I did because I'd worked hard on this, these two deals. And, you know, that's the first time. My only time in my career. Anyone had ever done that? Yeah. No. So and he had a reputation being really tough and hard, but I didn't have that experience with him. He was fair. And then he gave me another opportunity. So he had the land with Eddie Lincoln was his partner on the land across from the from the courthouse metro, that whole block there. And he got it zoned and he told me who he worked with, the big Arlington zoning firm, and they got that zone to be the highest site in Arlington County. They'll call us for our site, and it's at the highest piece of ground in the county, right next to the Red cross and the courthouse there.

John Coe 01:10:34  And I he said, John, you I'll give you a chance to show it to three developers. So I brought it to Oliver car. I brought it to Lowe Enterprises and I brought it, and I can't. The third was. But. And I didn't think of who ended up getting it, but that was JBG Cox, of course, and I should have brought it to Rob Stewart. I did, I just didn't, you know, and Rob ended up tying it up and his deal was 100 year ground lease, 99 year ground lease. But he wanted $1 million deposit. And some developers said, hey, I don't know if I want to put $1 million on that for 99 year Groundlings. But JBG said that site we're all in. Yeah. Well, to this day it hasn't been developed yet. And that was 15 years ago, at least. Maybe 20 years ago. Yeah. I mean, it could be a great site, but you know, there's no demand for office there now, right? But you could do a residential excuse for development, you know? Yeah, but JBG is not in the framework to do that right now.

John Coe 01:11:45  Of course. It's a different company. Yes, it is than it was.

Gary Cohen 01:11:48  Yes. Well, that's another mentor that I would see throughout the years is Michael Klosterman. Yes. From JBG. And but, you know, I also, you know, I have a lot of friends in New York that work for public companies that are high up in public or see CEO of public companies and other guys that are high up in the real estate world. I, I, I think that they're they're also sort of people that I, that you.

John Coe 01:12:13  Worked in, they.

Gary Cohen 01:12:14  May not even realize it, but they're actually my mentor as well because I'm always asking her questions and yeah. Yeah.

John Coe 01:12:19  So that had to have been a shock, though, to come back to Washington a little bit after it was work. It was when New York is just unique.

Gary Cohen 01:12:29  It's the best city in the world.

John Coe 01:12:32  And it is a different environment though. It is. So I interviewed Ray Richie and Ray, of course, manages, you know, portfolios here in Washington and New York and Boston for Boston properties and Los Angeles and San Francisco.

John Coe 01:12:49  And he said Washington compared to those cities. He said this is by far the best place to do business among those cities. As a real estate developer. He said his words were it's a chainsaw death match at those other cities of competition. You know, people backed by stab you in the back. He said new York and Los Angeles are classic for that. He said.

Gary Cohen 01:13:14  It's true. I mean, Jeff Carroll used to, you know, Larry Bushman, the guy I worked for. His office is right next to Jeff Corral, and he was sort of Jeff Corral's right hand man, and Jeff Corral. I never had any interactions with him, but I would listen to him and my boss, and he was tough. I mean, he was tough. So it's a it's a different. It's yes. It's a different mindset. It's a different environment. And they do. It's different.

John Coe 01:13:43  Our new precedent.

Gary Cohen 01:13:45  Correct. Correct. Exactly. Yeah.

John Coe 01:13:49  I mean, you know it's a boxing match up there.

John Coe 01:13:52  Yeah. Deals you know, so it's it's interesting. So what are some of the biggest wins, losses and surprising events of your career Jim Carrey.

Gary Cohen 01:14:04  I mean, I've had a lot of wins. I've had a couple of losses. But I think my biggest is what we were talking about earlier. I wish I held on to these buildings instead of selling them. I wish I still owned them. I would have a nice, healthy portfolio right now.

John Coe 01:14:19  any other stories about some of the buildings that you developed that you know want to share?

Gary Cohen 01:14:26  so I developed a small condo building on New York Avenue. It was a townhouse. and I actually had to pick it up and move it to the other side of the block. But I made a mistake at the time. You know, the McCullough's of the world and the icebergs of the world were just so busy of doing bigger projects. You know, this was a small eight unit condo deal, and they just they wanted the help, but they just they didn't have the manpower.

Gary Cohen 01:14:59  So I had to find a smaller contractor. And I'm not going to name names, but I found someone and it was a disaster. I ended up firing this guy for cause he ended up suing me. Oh, what a mess. And I won. I won the suit. But, you know, it cost a lot of money. And he owed me hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. But he dissolved his entity. And so that was, you know, you got to I mean, I know it it seems like such a simple thing. But, you know, some people are. They're so anxious to get the shovel in the ground and start. And sometimes they, they, they pull the trigger to have someone build it. And that's what happened to me. I was I got to start this thing. He seemed like the guy. So what was your biggest lesson there? My biggest lesson there was, you know, don't do your due diligence before you hire anyone, whether to GC or property management firm.

Gary Cohen 01:16:06  And and on that deal, I did not I did not do my due diligence and it completely came and bit me in the ass. I was just running around doing several projects and I was I was too confident that, oh yeah, yeah, this guy would be great. And I mean, it ended up biting me in the ass.

John Coe 01:16:24  Did you find out after the fact that he had screwed up elsewhere?

Gary Cohen 01:16:27  Oh, God, it was. Yes. Yeah. Luckily, the guy I hired to replace him was great, and he fixed and found all the problems, but again, it costs a lot of money. Yeah. So that was that was the biggest sort of regret of hiring. How long.

John Coe 01:16:46  A process was that.

Gary Cohen 01:16:47  Which which.

John Coe 01:16:48  From the time you found there was a disaster to you got everything resolved more than a year or two years?

Gary Cohen 01:16:54  Oh, yeah, a couple of years. Yeah. Yeah, that was hard because I was actually in the middle of the lawsuit with him, while my other, the new builder I bought, the new general contractor hired was finishing the building.

Gary Cohen 01:17:06  So it was all going on at the same time. But I mean, he made more not not a good not a good experience. That's too bad. I could experience. But, you know, you live in Lawrence sometimes you got to learn that. Yeah. I mean, I do tell people, you know, the best lessons I've learned and the and how I've become smarter are not necessarily the deals that I've had success with, but the deals that I have not had success. Yeah, that's where you really become a smarter person.

John Coe 01:17:35  Any other circumstances like that? Not quite like that, not.

Gary Cohen 01:17:38  Quite like that. But you know, there's some but nothing. Nothing. That was the worst. That was the worst one.

John Coe 01:17:44  So what about dealings with architects? I mean, do you have a good, you know, pretty good relationship with architects. I do, I yeah I do and then contracting. Do you do pretty much GC your own now or you always hire third.

Gary Cohen 01:17:57  Party unless it's a smaller job.

Gary Cohen 01:17:58  I mean I, you know I own a six unit building right. By the actually Civil War Memorial Metro not far from 13th. And you and I had to go ahead and, you know, put about $20,000 a unit to renovate it and get new tenants. I just self perform that myself, you know, self GC that. But for the bigger projects. No, no, no, I know what I know, I know what I don't know. I hire a third party.

John Coe 01:18:21  And then as far as leasing do you hire third parties on leasing I.

Gary Cohen 01:18:24  Do.

John Coe 01:18:25  And brokerage for sales. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So in-house. More or less just asset management. And you know, what else does Wilco do?

Gary Cohen 01:18:35  No. Wilco does. Property management, asset management, construction management. And we actually do have an in-house leasing guy. But for the most part, we we we do use third party, but he, he has some of our buildings where he does it in-house.

John Coe 01:18:50  So industrial for instance you know.

Gary Cohen 01:18:53  Oh yeah. We self-manage that but, but we have Lincoln property does all the leasing for, for those properties there. They have a couple guys in there that they are mister Montgomery County Industrial and there are guys and they do all of our leasing there. Great. Ethan Bernardi and Nate Burdick. They're very good.

John Coe 01:19:14  Are you going to just keep properties long term always or would you look at selling assets occasionally.

Gary Cohen 01:19:21  I mean you know never say never right. If the right opportunity came along. Sure. I mean, I think I think it's if I don't think I can actually say no, we're going to hold on to things forever because I just. How can you say that? Because you don't know. You don't know.

John Coe 01:19:37  Okay. Sure. Yeah. So if somebody just came along, but there's no intentional recycling strategy or anything like that.

Gary Cohen 01:19:45  Not not no.

John Coe 01:19:47  Physically you would, but not necessarily.

Gary Cohen 01:19:50  I mean, I mean, look, we do own some, you know, the shopping center in Kensington, you know, we've added so much value to that.

Gary Cohen 01:19:58  I mean, that could be an asset one day.

John Coe 01:20:00  Well, there are two centers in Rockville that. Well, that wash right bought from you. Right? Yeah. Right.

Gary Cohen 01:20:07  So everything, you know, even though we don't have any plans for selling anything, everything's for sale.

John Coe 01:20:15  There you go.

Gary Cohen 01:20:16  Yeah, yeah.

John Coe 01:20:18  So what was the most surprising event that happened in your career? Was it the deal that first deal you did in Pennsylvania Avenue? Was that the most surprising?

Gary Cohen 01:20:25  Yeah, probably. Yeah, that was probably the most surprising.

John Coe 01:20:31  On the on the good side.

Gary Cohen 01:20:32  On the good side. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

John Coe 01:20:36  Okay. So you've been very active in the community including you talked about earlier board memberships of KIPP, DC school. Talk about your community contributions and why they are important to you.

Gary Cohen 01:20:47  So as you know, my background is teaching and I always wanted to be involved in it some way, shape or form. So I went to an event once and actually, I actually think Jamal invited me a year.

Gary Cohen 01:21:03  I know you're into schools and education. I'm helping a charter school called KIPP, D.C. they're having a fundraiser night. Why don't you go? So I went and after it, I went right up to the executive director. Susan and I said, I want to get involved. She's great. We're brand new. I need young people like you. And I need young people that know real estate. So come in. Her name is Susan Scheffler. Come in to school, you know, on Monday, and let's talk.

John Coe 01:21:33  Where is Kip?

Gary Cohen 01:21:34  Oh, they're everywhere now. I mean, they're.

John Coe 01:21:37  Where was the first.

Gary Cohen 01:21:37  Campus in Houston? Oh, in D.C. the first campus was the Blue Castle building. Oh, sure. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

John Coe 01:21:46  Madison. Marquette owned that. That's right.

Gary Cohen 01:21:48  That's right. Okay. Yeah. So I was on their board for about six years.

John Coe 01:21:53  Did Madison Market sell the building to Kip?

Gary Cohen 01:21:55  You know, I feel like Madison Marquette bought the building while Kip was there.

John Coe 01:22:01  Oh, okay.

Gary Cohen 01:22:01  Yeah.

John Coe 01:22:02  Okay. Yeah. So they still own it.

Gary Cohen 01:22:04  I'm not sure if they still owned or not, but they they very well could. I think they had grander plans of redevelopment right of that and then the site across the street. So I'm not really sure where they are in that.

John Coe 01:22:17  Is Kip still they're in that building.

Gary Cohen 01:22:20  No, they're not in that building anymore. They're not. But they have 7 to 8 locations all around the city. So they've done very well.

John Coe 01:22:28  So they're a private entity.

Gary Cohen 01:22:31  Campus.

John Coe 01:22:31  Well are they. It's a charter school.

Gary Cohen 01:22:33  Yeah. Okay. So sort of a private public right partnership, but. Yeah.

John Coe 01:22:41  And what's the admission thing there? I mean, is it.

Gary Cohen 01:22:44  Everything is a lottery. You do apply, but, you know, they get funded by different foundations like the Gates Foundation, the Wasserman Foundation. Right. So families do not have to pay to go there.

John Coe 01:22:58  And you're involved both with your time and.

Gary Cohen 01:23:01  I'm not involved with KIPP DC anymore.

Gary Cohen 01:23:03  Oh you were not I am not. And shortly after that I actually my neighbor started a charter school and needed help on the real estate side of it. And this was like ten years ago. Okay. And that school was called inspired teaching demonstration o public charter school. Okay. And I was the founding board chair.

John Coe 01:23:21  Is that in D.C. as well?

Gary Cohen 01:23:22  That's in D.C. that's in Brooklyn. Okay. And I helped them start the charter. I helped them, you know, they were in the Manhattan building that Jamal owns off of 14th Street. And then they were in, another building where the U. Yang, which is another charter school. They shared a space with them. And then we found them a permanent building, which is an old public school on eighth Street in North, you know, fourth Street and northeast again in the Brooklyn area.

John Coe 01:23:53  Near Catholic University.

Gary Cohen 01:23:54  You know, Catholic University. Yeah. So but I was involved with them for, you know, several years. And I stepped down as board chair about 3 or 4 years ago.

Gary Cohen 01:24:04  And since then I have not been involved in any charter schools. I just sort of focused on my kids and getting them to college and Supporting, you know, their respective universities and being active in those universities as much as they possibly can. But education is always going to be a part of me, and I'll get back into it in one way, shape or form eventually. But but right now I'm I'm not involved with it.

John Coe 01:24:31  So family and business pretty much.

Gary Cohen 01:24:34  That's my world right now. Family and business. Okay. I got two kids in college and just, you know, navigating that.

John Coe 01:24:41  So without disclosing any secrets, share some stories of your favorite and not so favorite experiences. I guess you've shared a lot of them already. Anything that you haven't shared that you know, the lessons that you've learned from them per se. Well.

Gary Cohen 01:24:55  I you know, I don't think so.

John Coe 01:24:58  You've been very forthcoming so far. So.

Gary Cohen 01:25:01  Okay. Yeah. All right. Yeah.

John Coe 01:25:05  So we talked about a little bit just now.

John Coe 01:25:07  But your life priorities among family work and giving back. Family number one.

Gary Cohen 01:25:12  Absolutely.

John Coe 01:25:14  Okay. Talk about your family.

Gary Cohen 01:25:16  I have two boys. One's a junior at Kelley School in Indiana, Bloomington. And the other one is a freshman at Elon University. And he's interested in finance. So I'm an empty nester and interesting transition of being an empty nester, but I'm acclimating to that life. Okay. Yeah, I know my kids are great. Very close to them and the good kids and, you know, they. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. They both are in. They are both. They are both very interested in business. So we'll see. We'll see where that takes them.

John Coe 01:25:53  Are they interested in real estate.

Gary Cohen 01:25:55  My oldest son is interested in real estate. Okay. So.

John Coe 01:26:00  As he worked as a laborer in any project he did.

Gary Cohen 01:26:03  I made him work at the El. He worked for McCullough. He was a laborer. There you go. Yeah.

John Coe 01:26:08  Like father like son type of thing.

Gary Cohen 01:26:11  That's cool. Yeah. And then last summer he actually worked this summer that just passed. He actually worked for Newmark and the Capital Markets Division.

John Coe 01:26:18  Oh, you're in D.C.?

Gary Cohen 01:26:19  Yeah.

John Coe 01:26:20  Okay. Yeah, that's pretty cool.

Gary Cohen 01:26:22  Yeah.

John Coe 01:26:22  So you keep your your relationships there and then. Correct. That's cool. So what advice would you give your 25 year old self today?

Gary Cohen 01:26:32  Well, myself I would say before you again everything is subjective and everything is sort of, you know, circumstantial. But for me, I work for another real estate real estate company for at least 10 to 15 years before going into the family business.

John Coe 01:26:53  And how long was it that you worked like for? Okay, not long enough.

Gary Cohen 01:26:59  Not long enough, but hey, that's okay. That's interesting. Yeah.

John Coe 01:27:05  So why ten years? Why why that long?

Gary Cohen 01:27:07  I just.

John Coe 01:27:08  I that's the same question, to Toby Barstow.

Gary Cohen 01:27:10  And I just think that ten years is a good number of of not just learning about the real estate business from a, from someone else, but, but learning about yourself in that environment.

Gary Cohen 01:27:25  And I think ten years is a good interesting. It's just a good time frame. There's no scientific evidence to back that up. It just that's what I think ten years just sounds like a good number.

John Coe 01:27:38  Well you were in a unique circumstance there obviously. Yeah. If you could post a statement on a billboard on the Capital Beltway for millions to see, what would it say. Gary.

Gary Cohen 01:27:49  So I'm a field school and my founder field school Elizabeth Ely, at graduation. She got up there and she said she said this pointing to the mind. The brain doesn't work without this.

John Coe 01:28:05  Heart.

Gary Cohen 01:28:06  And this The heart doesn't work without the brain. The mind. So my thing is that it would say it would be a question and is is your heart and mind and concern.

John Coe 01:28:18  That's great. I like that. So why does that resonate with you?

Gary Cohen 01:28:24  Because I think that the key to life success, professionally and personally is balance. You've got to have balance. And, you know, it's hard to keep the balance because you got all these external forces telling you other things and you feel all these other things.

Gary Cohen 01:28:47  But if you can keep the heart and the brain in concert, I think you can accomplish that balance. That, in my opinion, is one of the keys to success.

John Coe 01:29:00  That's great. It's interesting. Balance is a word that's come up more than once in my interviews, Don Wood of Federal said that his whole life is based on balance, and he's an accountant, so that has an extra yeah, sense to it, but that's really cool.

Gary Cohen 01:29:18  Yeah, yeah. And you know, I mean, I'm, you know, a lot of my colleagues, friends, whatever you want to call them, the ones that that are most successful, they all have balance. So you know, you see it and you know maybe I should practice that also. And I think it's it works. I think it's it's, you know.

John Coe 01:29:41  Taken a while probably.

Gary Cohen 01:29:42  It has I'm a late bloomer without a doubt. But, you know, hey, better late than never. Yeah. That's great.

John Coe 01:29:48  Well, thank you very much for your time.

John Coe 01:29:52  Candid answers, I appreciate it.

Gary Cohen 01:29:55  Thanks for having me. Thank you, thank you. Great.